PCB assembly business ....

[bobi]

Ok

I am a bit young and I want to start a business.

I bit thinking of purchasing some SMT component placement machines.

I am not running a business at the moment I work for pay.

Sooo .... good idea or not ....

Any success stories out there ??

 

[The real Andy]

"bobi" <bobi@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:bj489k$25qm$1@otis.netspace.net.au...

Ok

I am a bit young and I want to start a business.

Stay young and dont start this particular business

I bit thinking of purchasing some SMT component placement machines.

A lot of money here.

I am not running a business at the moment I work for pay.

Keep working and fully research the costs of running a business. Also
investigate how many other people out there do what you want.

Sooo .... good idea or not ....

Not.

Any success stories out there ??

In AU i doubt it. There is not one decent contract manufacturer in AU. Maybe
you could do it, but we just don't have the market here in australia for
contract manufacturing, unless you can find a niche market.

 

[David L. Jones]

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:20:57 +1000, "bobi" <bobi@nospam.com> wrote:

Ok

I am a bit young and I want to start a business.

You are never too young to give something a go...

I bit thinking of purchasing some SMT component placement machines.

Do you have the $$$$$$ required for that?
Do you have experience with the processes involved, and the industry
in general?
Think about how many boards you'd have to assemble to get your $$$$$$
back... and how many years it would take...

I am not running a business at the moment I work for pay.

Working for one boss can often be better than working for hundreds of
bosses (your customers)...

Sooo .... good idea or not ....

Nope, bad idea.
Make your first business a zero capital outlay one, and do it part
time. If it takes off then quit your job and go full time.
A huge percentage of small businesses (80%+ or something like that)
fail within the first year, there are many reasons for that...

Any success stories out there ??

The board stuffing industry in Aus is a mugs game. It requires huge
captial and the industry is unstable, not a good combination.

If you want to get into this business then why not get yourself a good
hand soldering system and start a small part-time business assembling
boards by hand. At least you won't have to fork out the capital, and
you'll have nothing to lose.

Regards
Dave
---------------------------
(remove the "_" from my email address to reply)

 

[Mike Harding]

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:44:45 GMT, tronnort_@yahoo.com (David L. Jones)
wrote:

If you want to get into this business then why not get yourself a good
hand soldering system and start a small part-time business assembling
boards by hand. At least you won't have to fork out the capital, and
you'll have nothing to lose.

He'll only be able to make slave labour money at that David.

Mike Harding

 

[David L. Jones]

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:05:01 +1000, Mike Harding
<mike_harding1@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:44:45 GMT, tronnort_@yahoo.com (David L. Jones)
wrote:

If you want to get into this business then why not get yourself a good
hand soldering system and start a small part-time business assembling
boards by hand. At least you won't have to fork out the capital, and
you'll have nothing to lose.

He'll only be able to make slave labour money at that David.

Yep, he'll have to learn the hard way :->
I do actually know some people who make a worthwhile side business of
this though.

Dave
---------------------------
(remove the "_" from my email address to reply)

 

[Adam Seidel]

Having just purchased seven SMT placement machines at work, they are very,
very expensive.


Adam
"bobi" <bobi@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:bj489k$25qm$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
| Ok
|
| I am a bit young and I want to start a business.
|
| I bit thinking of purchasing some SMT component placement machines.
|
| I am not running a business at the moment I work for pay.
|
| Sooo .... good idea or not ....
|
| Any success stories out there ??
|
|

 

[Alex Gibson]

"Mike Harding" <mike_harding1@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:t1fblvsf7d5ui8fruvqeptgs0r9maaa04t@4ax.com...

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:44:45 GMT, tronnort_@yahoo.com (David L. Jones)
wrote:

If you want to get into this business then why not get yourself a good
hand soldering system and start a small part-time business assembling
boards by hand. At least you won't have to fork out the capital, and
you'll have nothing to lose.

He'll only be able to make slave labour money at that David.

Mike Harding

Really ?

Depends what you call slave labour money.

So what amount do you call slave labour money ?

Alex

 

[Mike Harding]

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:26:28 +1000, "Alex Gibson" <alxx@ihug.com.au>
wrote:

"Mike Harding" <mike_harding1@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:t1fblvsf7d5ui8fruvqeptgs0r9maaa04t@4ax.com...
On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:44:45 GMT, tronnort_@yahoo.com (David L. Jones)
wrote:

If you want to get into this business then why not get yourself a good
hand soldering system and start a small part-time business assembling
boards by hand. At least you won't have to fork out the capital, and
you'll have nothing to lose.

He'll only be able to make slave labour money at that David.

Really ?

Depends what you call slave labour money.

So what amount do you call slave labour money ?

First off he'll have a hard time _finding_ any work. The
more professional companies won't use him for a number
of reasons which leaves the back street boys as the main
market. Most of them will already have arrangements with
ex. industry mums working from home and fitting it in around
the kids. They work for peanuts don't pay tax etc. Very
hard to compete with that.

I don't know what current rates are for this type of home
based work ($8ph?) and I'm sure there are people who
started out this way and now own multi national companies.
But most of them stayed poor.

Mike Harding

 

[Steve]

"bobi" <bobi@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<bj489k$25qm$1@otis.netspace.net.au>...

Any success stories out there ??

Maybe a few decades ago, yeah! One aussie product we still use came
from BGE, but they are LONG gone. I can't imagine there'd be much
call for it, given the price of japanese electronics. You'd be
sailing into a niche market that already has its niche product
provider!

My girlfriends godfather built his business on populating PCBs, but
that part of it died out in the late eighties.

 

[Clifford Heath]

David L. Jones wrote:

A huge percentage of small businesses (80%+ or something like that)
fail within the first year, there are many reasons for that...

.... almost all of them are "cash flow", i.e. failure to collect
invoices in time to pay bills. 95% of these failures have otherwise
adequate business plans, P&L and annual balance sheet, I'm told.
That was the case a decade ago anyhow, when my wife was working in
bankruptcy administration. Something to think about...

 

[Garry Allen]

"The real Andy" <ihatehifitrolls@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<3f55a90c$0$10357$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>...

"bobi" <bobi@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:bj489k$25qm$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
Ok

I am a bit young and I want to start a business.

Stay young and dont start this particular business


I bit thinking of purchasing some SMT component placement machines.

A lot of money here.


I am not running a business at the moment I work for pay.

Keep working and fully research the costs of running a business. Also
investigate how many other people out there do what you want.


Sooo .... good idea or not ....

Not.


Any success stories out there ??

In AU i doubt it. There is not one decent contract manufacturer in AU. Maybe
you could do it, but we just don't have the market here in australia for
contract manufacturing, unless you can find a niche market.
We have heard this from you before.

You have tried every single Australian contract manufacturer have you?
I know there are some absolute shockers out there but i have dealt
with companies in the past whose results we were very happy with. It
cuts both ways. If you are dealing with good manufacturers and
expecting them to do all your engineering work for you because you
have given them crap in the form of
(a) boards that have not been designed for manufacturability - e.g.
surface mount resistors mounted vertically, boards that aren't
panelled, no fiducial marks... Get guidelines for manufacture from
them and put the effort into giving them stuff that can be
manufactured.
(b) inadequate documentation
(c) crap components
(d) no test information
(e) no placement files
(f) crap stencils
(g) some or all of the above
you will probably get crap back. Good manufacturers are out there and
they are happy to give you feedback in order to revise your designs to
make your designs easier and cheaper to produce (and more reliable
and..). But if you expect them to do all the work for you all the time
you will continue to get poor service and a crap product. And if your
designs are crap in the first place then it is quite probable that you
are going to have high failure rates. (e.g components have tolerances.
Design for them)

Go to some of the SMCBA conferences. Do a course on Design for
Manufacture. Get feedback from your manufacturers
Garry Allen
I have never dealt with AEMS. I had very good results with Tresmine
and Benetron in Sydney and I was impressed with the information that I
got back from Puzzle Electronics in Newcastle. (talking about moderate
volumes - several hundred boards with fine pitch SMT e.g 208 pin QFPS
and TSSOPs and 0603 capacitors and resistors on both sides) Tresmine
is set up for bigger volumes and they were happy to quote very low
failure rates

 

[bobi]

thank you people.

well no one is dragging me by the neck to do anything I am just
investigating whats out there.

I went to some Electronics shows in Darling Harbour the other day and spoke
to some representatives
of component placement machines.

I did work for 6 months in a PCB assembling place 9 years ago. (hand
placement, through hole, hand soldering).

Then I got caught up with the IT industry and now IT is dead and now back to
electronics stuff ).

To the guy that bought 7 machines. What kind are they?? How much.

"bobi" <bobi@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:bj489k$25qm$1@otis.netspace.net.au...

Ok

I am a bit young and I want to start a business.

I bit thinking of purchasing some SMT component placement machines.

I am not running a business at the moment I work for pay.

Sooo .... good idea or not ....

Any success stories out there ??

 

[The real Andy]

"Garry Allen" <garrya@ihug.com.au> wrote in message
news:3abc4240.0309031718.5a7ceb91@posting.google.com...

<snipped my crap>

We have heard this from you before.
You have tried every single Australian contract manufacturer have you?

Tried enough to know that for volume you are better off going off shore.

I know there are some absolute shockers out there but i have dealt
with companies in the past whose results we were very happy with. It
cuts both ways. If you are dealing with good manufacturers and
expecting them to do all your engineering work for you because you
have given them crap in the form of

I expect nothing from AU manufacturers, because thats what you get. The fact
is, most employ morons that don't know shit about electronics. Some are
incapable of even operating a PC for automated testing.

(a) boards that have not been designed for manufacturability - e.g.
surface mount resistors mounted vertically, boards that aren't
panelled, no fiducial marks... Get guidelines for manufacture from
them and put the effort into giving them stuff that can be
manufactured.

I work to an international standard. I design boards for minimum
manufacturing cost, to manufacturers guidelins. I use plenty of fiducial
marks, even though decent manufacturers only require 3 on the whole panel
these days.

(b) inadequate documentation

I write documents that a primary school student could understand.

(c) crap components

Where in AU here, c'mon give me a break.

(d) no test information

All my testing is automated

(e) no placement files

I prefer the manufacturer to do this, but will supply them if need be.

(f) crap stencils

Where in AU can you get decent stencils, in fact, where can you even get
decent PCB's??

(g) some or all of the above
you will probably get crap back. Good manufacturers are out there and
they are happy to give you feedback in order to revise your designs to
make your designs easier and cheaper to produce (and more reliable
and..). But if you expect them to do all the work for you all the time
you will continue to get poor service and a crap product. And if your
designs are crap in the first place then it is quite probable that you
are going to have high failure rates. (e.g components have tolerances.
Design for them)

In TW and China, the manufacturers will take an 80% complete design and
finish it for you at no extra cost. The will do electrical design
verifiction, hardware (ie cases) verifiction. They will provide EMC and
electrical compliance. They will design your looms...the list goes on.

Go to some of the SMCBA conferences. Do a course on Design for
Manufacture. Get feedback from your manufacturers
Garry Allen
I have never dealt with AEMS. I had very good results with Tresmine
and Benetron in Sydney and I was impressed with the information that I
got back from Puzzle Electronics in Newcastle. (talking about moderate
volumes - several hundred boards with fine pitch SMT e.g 208 pin QFPS
and TSSOPs and 0603 capacitors and resistors on both sides) Tresmine
is set up for bigger volumes and they were happy to quote very low
failure rates

Can you give me more specific yield rates? Failure rate per volume??

The point I try to make is that the Australian market is simply just not
geared up for electronics manufacturing. Processes here are to expensive.
What I look for is someone to make the process as least painful as possible.
I want to give someone a design and I want to see the product. I dont want
to be on the phone 50% of the day talking some dipshit uni graduate through
the process of turning on a computer and running a batch file. I dont want
to have to be visiting the manufacturer each week. I dont want to be chasing
them when the product is six months late.

Let me give you a recent example. One particular contract manufacturer in
Sydney rejected a stack of PCB's because they were V-grooved not routed.
Give me a break, why can everyone else manage V-cut PCB's?? This mob is
about 8months late delivering the product. A manufacturer in China has
already turned out the product and they were given their order AFTER the Au
manufacturer. This is the second time this has happened, both different
companies to the first..

Anyway, small runs I have no choice but to do in AU, so I guess I'll have to
continue dealing with the shit.

 

[David L. Jones]

On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 07:40:09 +1000, Mike Harding
<mike_harding1@hotmail.com> wrote:

First off he'll have a hard time _finding_ any work. The
more professional companies won't use him for a number
of reasons which leaves the back street boys as the main
market. Most of them will already have arrangements with
ex. industry mums working from home and fitting it in around
the kids. They work for peanuts don't pay tax etc. Very
hard to compete with that.

Yep, that's how it work most of the time.
Employee quits (or keeps working there) and then does the boards at
home for half the cost that the company was paying a sub-contractor.
You can actually make a very profitable business out of this,
especially if the (usually big) company was being charged a motza by
the sub-contractor.

I don't know what current rates are for this type of home
based work ($8ph?) and I'm sure there are people who
started out this way and now own multi national companies.
But most of them stayed poor.

Yep, its almost always a side or very small business thing, and hardly
ever amounts to much. The steady work often runs out within a few
years. It's only really suitable for people with good industry
contacts who have little or no overheads, are retired, stay at home
mums and dads etc
Most people I know who do this charge a fixed cost per board/product.

Dave
---------------------------
(remove the "_" from my email address to reply)

 

[David L. Jones]

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:40:40 +1000, "bobi" <bobi@nospam.com> wrote:

thank you people.

well no one is dragging me by the neck to do anything I am just
investigating whats out there.

I went to some Electronics shows in Darling Harbour the other day and spoke
to some representatives of component placement machines.

You should have asked the price, you would have been out of there like
a shot!
They are fun to watch though, I want to the Austronics expo today and
now I want one too :->

I did work for 6 months in a PCB assembling place 9 years ago. (hand
placement, through hole, hand soldering).

Then I got caught up with the IT industry and now IT is dead and now back to
electronics stuff ).

To the guy that bought 7 machines. What kind are they?? How much.

If you *really* wanted to do this, you'd be a mug to buy the machines
new. There are companies being liquidated all the time, and their pick
and place machines get auctioned off. For the last few years I have
probably averaged 2 liquidation aution pamphets in the mail per year
that have pick and place machines.

Dave
---------------------------
(remove the "_" from my email address to reply)

 

[Adam Seidel]

Yep, liquidated machines - Samsung CP33 series, optical placement blah blah
around the $US150k + mark i think, considering we bought only one new
several years ago at close to this price. They came out of singapore. Have
recently purch also ovens, tray loaders all from the US (another
liquidator)

Adam

"bobi" <bobi@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:bj6mpa$2sh9$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
| thank you people.
|
| well no one is dragging me by the neck to do anything I am just
| investigating whats out there.
|
| I went to some Electronics shows in Darling Harbour the other day and
spoke
| to some representatives
| of component placement machines.
|
| I did work for 6 months in a PCB assembling place 9 years ago. (hand
| placement, through hole, hand soldering).
|
| Then I got caught up with the IT industry and now IT is dead and now back
to
| electronics stuff ).
|
| To the guy that bought 7 machines. What kind are they?? How much.
|
| "bobi" <bobi@nospam.com> wrote in message
| news:bj489k$25qm$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
| > Ok
| >
| > I am a bit young and I want to start a business.
| >
| > I bit thinking of purchasing some SMT component placement machines.
| >
| > I am not running a business at the moment I work for pay.
| >
| > Sooo .... good idea or not ....
| >
| > Any success stories out there ??
| >
| >
|
|