OTC hearing aids in the US

On Wednesday, 12 June 2019 03:26:52 UTC+1, John Robertson wrote:

ignorance? Not everyone researches products they use, as there is a
certain assumption in our society that anything sold is safe because the
gov. wouldn't let them sell it if it wasn't - would they?

a surprisingly common view that shows failure to grasp quite basic aspects of life.


NT

 

[Rich S]

On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 3:25:23 AM UTC-4, rsu...@consumer.org wrote:

On Tuesday, June 11, 2019 at 8:32:08 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 8:28:57 PM UTC-4, Rich S wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 4:11:13 PM UTC-4, Carl wrote:
I saw a little blurb in an AARP magazine about a new law approving over the
counter hearing aids, purchasable with no audiologist's prescription. I
hadn't heard of this before so after the recent threads on building your own
hearing aids I just wanted to pass it on. Apparently in 2017 a law was
passed that would eventually make OTC hearing aids legal, once the FDA gets
around to creating the appropriate regulations. That article was about the
fact that these were once again delayed, (sigh, naturally ) with the new
FDA target November 2019 (or later). Anyway, for more details here's a
link:
https://www.medtechdive.com/news/fda-targets-late-2019-for-hearing-aid-proposed-rule/540001/.
Enjoy.

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames

I'm concerned about *over-the-counter* hearing aids. While I recognize that prescribed aids are high cost, not covered by health plans, and even less-expensive models might have enough usability and smarts (?) to learn what the person with mild-loss needs -- they really are medical devices. They need prescribed by an expert IMHO. That's the reason for the high price - long-term expert support. The training period is lengthy (not the instant gratification that most people expect). Even with audiological support, the retention rate is already low (though maybe that's improved over the years?). Ready access to OTC HAs or PSAs that dissatisfy may lead the wearer to give up on audiologically-fitted HA.
- Rich S.

Typical lib thinking. People are too stupid to be able to buy a low
cost, OTC hearing aid and figure out if it works for them or not.
Conservatives believe people should be free to choose and they don't
need libs controlling them. Take away their salt shakers too.

I wouldn't say "too stupid" but unaware of the potential harm. Hearing damage is generally irreversible. Pickng the wrong HA could be that bad. Unlike picking the wrong eyeglasses, the wrong arch support, etc.

You're right - it's possible an OTC has suitable limiting. It's even possible that an "intelligent", sophisticated, hi-tech HA plus smartphone app could be made that carefully evaluates the user needs and programs the HAs. That kind of device wouldn't be as cheap as simple PSA (personal sound amplifiers) - but maybe cheaper than the full-blown audiologically-fitted pair of HAs. If these high-tech HAs exist, I'd like to see the research to see if that had any better long-term success than human-expert fit.

Update: So yes, you can get an inexpensive PSA that has peak output limiting (106dB). You can control it via your smartphone or tablet. It is OK for mild- to moderate- loss wearers.

zvox.com/products/voicebud-vb20-hearing-amplifier-with-accuvoice-technology-champagne-left

Though devices like this do require some patience to adjust. Not everyone understands what multi-band EQ is and how it works. Even with helpful videos, some folks will be flummoxed.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 16:10:46 -0700 (PDT), Rich S
<richsulinengineer@gmail.com> wrote:

>Update: So yes, you can get an inexpensive PSA that has peak output limiting (106dB).

Zvox limits theirs to:
Full-on Gain (HFA): 28-34 dB (+/-2 dB) depending on mode
See specs at the bottom of the above Zvox web page.

>You can control it via your smartphone or tablet. It is OK for mild- to moderate- loss wearers.

Note the disclaimer at the bottom the Zvox web page:

VoiceBuds are FDA registered Class One hearing aids. They
are designed to help people with mild to moderate hearing
loss. People with more severe hearing issues should consult
an audiologist or licensed hearing aid dispenser for a full
hearing evaluation.

>zvox.com/products/voicebud-vb20-hearing-amplifier-with-accuvoice-technology-champagne-left

The Android app:
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ear.zvox.tools&hl=en_US>
The reviews seem to indicate that the app needs some work.
iPhone app:
<https://apps.apple.com/us/app/voicebud/id1429316717>

Though devices like this do require some patience to adjust. Not everyone understands
what multi-band EQ is and how it works. Even with helpful videos, some folks will be
flummoxed.

The track record of the GUM (great unwashed masses) in operating
complexicated devices is dismal. Few mortals can successfully program
a TV, Wi-Fi router, VoIP phone, DVR, smartphone, etc. Videos, printed
instructions, online instructions, software wizards, and books for
complete idiots don't seem to help. At the present rate our devices
are becoming more programmable, and therefore more complexicated, I
predict that we'll soon be doomed to live in a world full of
inoperable and uncontrollable devices. The obvious solution of having
the devices program themselves is likely to cause different problems.
Designing a new device to help program other devices seem like adding
to the problem instead of solving it. I give up. We're all doomed.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 13/06/19 20:06, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 16:10:46 -0700 (PDT), Rich S
richsulinengineer@gmail.com> wrote:

Update: So yes, you can get an inexpensive PSA that has peak output limiting (106dB).

Zvox limits theirs to:
Full-on Gain (HFA): 28-34 dB (+/-2 dB) depending on mode
See specs at the bottom of the above Zvox web page.

I would have hoped people on this forum would have
understood the difference between power and power gain.

The spec relevant to RichS's point is
"Peak output level: 113 dB"
or rather it would be if the manufacturer understood
the difference, and specified "which" dB it is.

Not a good point w.r.t. trusting the manufacturer.

The track record of the GUM (great unwashed masses) in operating
complexicated devices is dismal. Few mortals can successfully program
a TV, Wi-Fi router, VoIP phone, DVR, smartphone, etc. Videos, printed
instructions, online instructions, software wizards, and books for
complete idiots don't seem to help. At the present rate our devices
are becoming more programmable, and therefore more complexicated, I
predict that we'll soon be doomed to live in a world full of
inoperable and uncontrollable devices. The obvious solution of having
the devices program themselves is likely to cause different problems.
Designing a new device to help program other devices seem like adding
to the problem instead of solving it. I give up. We're all doomed.

I hope those that confuse power and power gain, or
power and energy (kW/kWh) are indeed doomed.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 21:18:58 +0100, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 13/06/19 20:06, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 16:10:46 -0700 (PDT), Rich S
richsulinengineer@gmail.com> wrote:

Update: So yes, you can get an inexpensive PSA that has peak output limiting (106dB).

Zvox limits theirs to:
Full-on Gain (HFA): 28-34 dB (+/-2 dB) depending on mode
See specs at the bottom of the above Zvox web page.

I would have hoped people on this forum would have
understood the difference between power and power gain.

Guilty as charged. I was going to cut-n-pasted both lines, but
missed. I was in a hurry and screwed up.

The spec relevant to RichS's point is
"Peak output level: 113 dB"
or rather it would be if the manufacturer understood
the difference, and specified "which" dB it is.

Not a good point w.r.t. trusting the manufacturer.

Just "dB" is correct when referring to SPL (sound pressure level).
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure#Sound_pressure_level>
Notice the vertical scale on the graph at:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure#/media/File:Lindos1.svg>
which is in dB SPL:

Sound pressure level (SPL) or acoustic pressure level
is a logarithmic measure of the effective pressure of
a sound relative to a reference value.

That begs the questions as to what is the reverence value:

The commonly used reference sound pressure in air is
p0 = 20 ľPa
which is often considered as the threshold of human
hearing (roughly the sound of a mosquito flying 3 m away).
The proper notations for sound pressure level using this
reference are Lp/(20 ľPa) or Lp (re 20 ľPa), but the
suffix notations dB SPL, dB(SPL), dBSPL, or dBSPL are
very common, even if they are not accepted by the SI.

Sound. This is almost as bad a radiation measurements.

I hope those that confuse power and power gain, or
power and energy (kW/kWh) are indeed doomed.

Yep. I'm doomed, but only when I'm in a hurry, such as right now.

Also, permit me apologize for not replying to your previous comments
on over-the-counter hearing aids. I had a chance meeting with a
genuine "Senior Licensed Hearing Aid Dispenser" on Tues. We briefly
discussed some of the issues you mentioned. I've been rather busy the
last few days and haven't had time to scribble a suitable reply.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 14/06/19 03:37, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 21:18:58 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 13/06/19 20:06, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 16:10:46 -0700 (PDT), Rich S
richsulinengineer@gmail.com> wrote:

Update: So yes, you can get an inexpensive PSA that has peak output limiting (106dB).

Zvox limits theirs to:
Full-on Gain (HFA): 28-34 dB (+/-2 dB) depending on mode
See specs at the bottom of the above Zvox web page.

I would have hoped people on this forum would have
understood the difference between power and power gain.

Guilty as charged. I was going to cut-n-pasted both lines, but
missed. I was in a hurry and screwed up.

I've never ever done that. Oh no, Never ever ever

The spec relevant to RichS's point is
"Peak output level: 113 dB"
or rather it would be if the manufacturer understood
the difference, and specified "which" dB it is.

Not a good point w.r.t. trusting the manufacturer.

Just "dB" is correct when referring to SPL (sound pressure level).

Iff it is referring to SPL. In my limited understanding
there are quite a few dB scales and references used
in w.r.t. audiology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure#Sound_pressure_level
Notice the vertical scale on the graph at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_pressure#/media/File:Lindos1.svg
which is in dB SPL:

Sound pressure level (SPL) or acoustic pressure level
is a logarithmic measure of the effective pressure of
a sound relative to a reference value.

That begs the questions as to what is the reverence value:

The commonly used reference sound pressure in air is
p0 = 20 ÂľPa
which is often considered as the threshold of human
hearing (roughly the sound of a mosquito flying 3 m away).
The proper notations for sound pressure level using this
reference are Lp/(20 ÂľPa) or Lp (re 20 ÂľPa), but the
suffix notations dB SPL, dB(SPL), dBSPL, or dBSPL are
very common, even if they are not accepted by the SI.

Sound. This is almost as bad a radiation measurements.

Sound pressures is easy compared to /perceived/
sounds; the ear-brain combination is highly
non-linear in whatever dimension you care to consider.

That's the reason MPEG compression can work so
effectively: it discards information that the
ear/brain won't perceive.

Ditto the phone speech codecs which model the
vocal tract.

I hope those that confuse power and power gain, or
power and energy (kW/kWh) are indeed doomed.

Yep. I'm doomed, but only when I'm in a hurry, such as right now.

Also, permit me apologize for not replying to your previous comments
on over-the-counter hearing aids. I had a chance meeting with a
genuine "Senior Licensed Hearing Aid Dispenser" on Tues. We briefly
discussed some of the issues you mentioned. I've been rather busy the
last few days and haven't had time to scribble a suitable reply.

I'll be interested to hear their comments.

I have no concept of what that job title does and doesn't imply.