OT: Water Pipe Insulation

[Jim Thompson]

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3'
of exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters
the house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUn]

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:00:29 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3' of
exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters the
house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

Remember the old, insulated boxes they used to make line printers
quieter? Something like that.

You need to build an insulated "mast" for the vertical rise portion,
like a stand for a mailbox, or the like... 1" x 4" or 1" x 6" square box
around it. Insulating it from wind chill effect should be enough, but if
not, you can add that heat tape they invented for trailer park 'victims'.

The horizontal part can be boxed as well, and you can make a doorway for
the access to the regulator.

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

 

[Tom Miller]

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
message news:3361aaptcl9nvvlg4slhntqi9k18bq6b0c@4ax.com...

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3'
of exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters
the house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

...Jim Thompson
--

Heat tape.

For example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Easy-Heat-013-3-Foot-Water-Pipe-Freeze-Protection-Heating-Cable-Heat-Tape-Kit/301425051650?_trksid=p2045573.c100034.m2102&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003150253%26meid%3D6377707288f14b269d0f4ec8887af148%26pid%3D100034%26prg%3D20131003150253%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D141478077894#ht_2603wt_1014

Then wrap with insulation.

 

[Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.]

In article <3361aaptcl9nvvlg4slhntqi9k18bq6b0c@4ax.com>, To-Email-Use-
The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com says...

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3'
of exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters
the house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

...Jim Thompson

For you HEAT tape., Wrap your pipes and plug it in.

As for cold, it got 60F here and we should be seeing snow on the
ground and very chilly temps.

Must be that global warming disaster!


Jamie

 

[Don Y]

On 12/28/2014 5:00 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3'
of exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters
the house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

Eliminate as much "exposed" pipe as possible (earth berming, etc.).
Wrap the remaining (exposed) pipe in 40 mil tape (esp anything
below grade). Then, a length of rubber insulation (they sell these
prefabbed for different ID's -- match pipe OD). Finally, coat the
exterior of the insulation with metalized tape (to protect from
Sun exposure).

We moved the upstream regulator *inside* the house (garage adjoins
the muni water entry) and replumbed so we only have 12" of "exposed"
main (which includes the local shut-off for the house).

Beyond the entry to the house (garage), a master irrigation valve
(which must be above the highest point in the irrigation system
to ensure the irrig line doesn't drain *into* the muni water supply
when pressure is lost/local fire fighting) feeds a separate
regulator (for the irrigation system). But, there is no water
in this line as the master valve is electrically "off" when not
in use.

We've never had a problem -- despite being in one of the colder parts
of town (26F last night).

Others wrap pipes with blankets or heat tape (and remember to turn
that *on* before retiring each night).

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

 

[Tom Biasi]

On 12/28/2014 7:00 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3'
of exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters
the house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

...Jim Thompson

In cold climate installations the pipe remains below the frost line and
enters the house from the floor. In your case the heat tape would work
fine and take very little power. Some tapes even have a built in thermostat.

 

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:00:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3'
of exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters
the house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

I doubt it'll get below freezing under the house with only a few hours
down to 15F unless there it is over-ventilated. A little insulation
(as others have pointed out, this stuff is readily available) might
help. If you're really paranoid, thermostatically controlled heat
tape is available. It'll use no electricity until it's needed. In
this case, it likely never will. ;-)

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 19:10:39 -0500, "Maynard A. Philbrook Jr."
<jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> wrote:

In article <3361aaptcl9nvvlg4slhntqi9k18bq6b0c@4ax.com>, To-Email-Use-
The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com says...

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3'
of exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters
the house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

...Jim Thompson

For you HEAT tape., Wrap your pipes and plug it in.

As for cold, it got 60F here and we should be seeing snow on the
ground and very chilly temps.

Must be that global warming disaster!


Jamie

Thursday, top of Mt Lincoln at Sugar Bowl, 8400 ft, it was 20F and
40+MPH with sun and blowing snow.. People are predicting 5F here on
Tuesday.

Look carefully at those rocks: people have been *skiing* there:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Truckee/MtLincolnChair.jpg


On the way up, swirls of snow traced the contours, like the smoke
streams they use to visualize air flow over cars and airplane wings

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Truckee/MtLincoln1.jpg

So, people stand in that cold and wind, trying to work up the courage
to push over the edge...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Truckee/MtLincolnDropoff.jpg

which is about 300 feet of 45 degree slope, mainly ice.

So far, the California drought situation looks pretty good.

 

[Martin Riddle]

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:00:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3'
of exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters
the house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

...Jim Thompson

A. Keep the water running, a trickle is all that is needed.

B. Heat Cable/Tape, Make sure you get an outdoor rated heater. Most
are for crawl spaces and unheated garages. The regulator probaly will
not freeze if the pipe is heated.

C. Incandesant lights can also be used in a pinch to keep pipes from
freezing.


I take it you don't have a basement, our service enters 3' below the
soil line. I knew some one with the same problem where the entrance
was in an unheated garage. He used the light trick on cold nights, and
later changed to the heat tape.


Cheers

 

[Joe Chisolm]

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:00:29 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3' of
exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters the
house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

...Jim Thompson

Heat tape and then wrap that with the insulation wrap. I dont have
a good well house (yet) and that setup kept the well pipes
protected when we had 3 days and it never got above 29F. You
better get the wrap tomorrow morning before everyone is sold out.

I suspect you will have a few hours below 32F and then warm
back up.

--
Chisolm
Republic of Texas

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 21:14:37 -0600, Joe Chisolm
<jchisolm6@earthlink.net> wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:00:29 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3' of
exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters the
house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

...Jim Thompson


Heat tape and then wrap that with the insulation wrap. I dont have
a good well house (yet) and that setup kept the well pipes
protected when we had 3 days and it never got above 29F. You
better get the wrap tomorrow morning before everyone is sold out.

I suspect you will have a few hours below 32F and then warm
back up.

Yep. It's Arizona... just before dawn is the problem time.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:28:38 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 21:14:37 -0600, Joe Chisolm
jchisolm6@earthlink.net> wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:00:29 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3' of
exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters the
house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

...Jim Thompson


Heat tape and then wrap that with the insulation wrap. I dont have
a good well house (yet) and that setup kept the well pipes
protected when we had 3 days and it never got above 29F. You
better get the wrap tomorrow morning before everyone is sold out.

I suspect you will have a few hours below 32F and then warm
back up.

Yep. It's Arizona... just before dawn is the problem time.

...Jim Thompson

It takes a long time or temperatures substantially less than 32°F/0°C
to really freeze a pipe, but if you're worried.. here's one source..
these guys can probably ship overnight to you, and a cracked tap will
keep from freezing until then.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#heat-cable/=v87xem

It's been a really green (more like brown) Xmas here in the frozen
north this year.. rain and substantially above freezing most of the
time, at least the highs.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Jack]

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3'
of exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters
the house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

...Jim Thompson

something like this should be enough:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-3-4-in-x-6-ft-Foam-Self-Seal-Pipe-Insulation-ORS07812/204760815?N=5yc1vZbuy9

if you are really scared put a pipe heater under the foam.

Bye Jack
--
Yoda of Borg am I! Assimilated shall you be! Futile resistance is, hmm?

 

[mike]

On 12/28/2014 8:40 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:00:29 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3' of
exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters the
house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

Remember the old, insulated boxes they used to make line printers
quieter? Something like that.

You need to build an insulated "mast" for the vertical rise portion,
like a stand for a mailbox, or the like... 1" x 4" or 1" x 6" square box
around it. Insulating it from wind chill effect should be enough, but if
not, you can add that heat tape they invented for trailer park 'victims'.

The horizontal part can be boxed as well, and you can make a doorway for
the access to the regulator.

I have seen 15°-20°F in past winters at the old house, and this winter
is predicted to be colder :-(

I second the insulated box method. You need to instrument it to be sure,
but given heat from the ground on one end and the house on the other,
you may not need anything more. My crawl space stays about 50F no matter
what the outside temperature.
The wireless remote temperature transmitters work great for monitoring
that kind of stuff.

I've been experimenting in that area.
I've been using a 60W incandescent light bulb in the garage
for the last 40 years. Got the urge to automate it and made some
discoveries.

The self regulating heat tape is made of some polymer material that
degrades over time. I'd check it occasionally.

I expected a hockey-stick resistance curve like you see from some of
the PTC resistors. Ain't so. Yes, the resistance goes up, but it's
rather gradual. I'd post the measurements, but they've been filed
somewhere just beyond the reach of my memory ;-(

This has some graphs
http://www.thermon.com/catalog/us_pdf_files/TEP0013.pdf

I put a foot of it on a short pipe coming out of the concrete.
It stabilized somewhere around 80F.

I experimented with bi-metalic electric heater thermostats. They're not
designed
to work down there and if you tweek them, the resetability and stability
and hysteresis render them useless.

I have a battery-powered digital furnace thermostat with a latching relay.
It won't go down to 30F, but you can shunt the sensor and move the setpoint
up so the firmware can switch the relay in the 30F range and up.

IN the process of all this I discovered you can buy a gizmo that looks
like a 3-way plug adapter that has a thermostat in it. Specs are loose,
but if you can get the sensor to be the same temperature as the pipe,
it might work. I bought an adjustable sensor designed to turn on a light
to alert your neighbors that your furnace quit so they can call you.
It's bi-metal, but designed to work down where it's needed. Initial
tests in the freezer look good.
Been too warm lately to test it, but should be cold enough this weekend
to look
at the temperature differences between the pipe and the location of
the sensor.

I fully expect that I'll just use the mechanical sensor. It's
likely to be good enough. The design
is done on the accurate electronic system. All that's left is the boring
part of packaging it. I hate boring.

Bottom line is that I've spend more $$ on gas acquiring stuff than
I'll ever recoup by replacing my incandescent light.
Guess that's why they call it a hobby.

Depending on where your pipe comes out, you may be better off/safer
using low voltage lights, or just a resistor clamped to the pipe, for
the heat source and run wire thru the wall
to wherever it needs to go. Put an insulated box around the whole thing.
Stick a flower pot on top to make it look like it belongs there ;-)

 

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUn]

On Mon, 29 Dec 2014 13:50:02 -0600, amdx wrote:

On 12/28/2014 10:40 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 17:00:29 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

It got down to 28°F here last night, and this new house has about 3'
of exposed pipe where the service comes out of the ground and enters
the house.

There is also a pressure regulator out there.

What do you people in the cold climes recommend for
insulating/protecting such pipes from freezing?

Remember the old, insulated boxes they used to make line printers
quieter? Something like that.

You need to build an insulated "mast" for the vertical rise portion,
like a stand for a mailbox, or the like... 1" x 4" or 1" x 6" square
box around it. Insulating it from wind chill effect should be enough,

Huh?
Is 35* with a 5 mph wind (windchill of 31*) going to freeze water in
a pipe faster than 35* with no wind?

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/ddc/?n=windchill

Your problem is you fail to observe all the factors working here.
Like that the wind there is rarely a mere 5 mph, and average ambient is
charted against a constant temperature wind. These wind currents are
chilled below ambient ground temp, so spright standing apparatus does
chill faster than the standard chart, so yes, a boxed vertical rise from
the ground would suffer far less chilling, than an exposed one, and any
heat it emmanates would get 'contained' within said box as well, further
raising your claimed ambient figure.

Yes. Boxing it would be better.