OT. Water Fight??...

[Dean Hoffman]

It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.
<https://apnews.com/article/colorado-river-water-drought-arizona-california-nevada-dfe162ebd056ea5294552a916f9e9916>

 

[Don Y]

On 4/12/2023 5:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.

Like *next* year? :>

Water is a serious issue in this part of the country. (It will soon
be an issue in the rest of the country/world, as well!)

We are keenly aware of \"waste\" -- you don\'t \"hose down your driveway\",
don\'t *have* a \"lawn\" (it\'s either \"natural\" or covered with crushed
stone -- various colors/textures), don\'t leave the water running while
brushing your teeth, etc. We xeriscape our yards, use drip irrigation,
the city uses reclaimed (sewer) water to water fields and public
spaces, etc. Folks who are obsessed with green lawns \"plant\" astroturf
in a desperate bid to deny the reality of our climate.

There\'s a shift away from evaporative coolers towards refrigeration
(the running costs are comparable but refrigeration has a much higher
equipment cost); mini-splits are being pushed in the \"less advantaged\"
parts of town (they are eyesores *in* the home... like having \"window
units\" in each room!).

[There\'s actually a great market opportunity for mini-splits in a
*retrofit* application -- install the evaporators in the ducts
so they aren\'t visible and rely on the central blower motor to
move air through them]

The use of evaporative cooling in *outdoor* spaces has decreased
dramatically.

Newer construction must make provisions for grey water recycling.
Swimming pools are discouraged (evaporative losses) -- though I
haven\'t yet seen a program to subsidize folks \"removing\" their pools.

The city will subsidize rainwater harvesting equipment -- but, that\'s
so labor intensive that the money just goes to the installers (who
always seem to raise their rates to absorb any potential savings).

We started planning for our primary citrus trees to be \"deprecated\"
by planting dwarf varieties to take the place of the larger rootstock
plantings currently in place (we harvest ~1000 pounds of fruit
each crop; other folks let their fruit rot on the tree! :< Why not
replace it with something that doesn\'t use as much water??).

But, agri-business is where the most waste lies. Why are we growing
cotton or pecans in the desert? Alfalfa?? Why are they watering
during daylight hours?

Our (local) mindset already has adapted to this reality. Other parts
of the country will be *really* stressed when these concerns manifest
there! (I can recall a \"water emergency\" as a kid and folks were
annoyed that they couldn\'t wash their own cars -- *commercial* car
washes recycle water)

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 05:14:45 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
<deanh6929@gmail.com> wrote:

It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.
https://apnews.com/article/colorado-river-water-drought-arizona-california-nevada-dfe162ebd056ea5294552a916f9e9916

We have long-term problems in the US West. Precip is very erratic year
to year, and people are making things worse, diverting waterways and
pumping groundwater at un-sustainable rates.

Houses with wells keep having to drill deeper. A residential well can
cost $60K to drill in some places.

This year, the problem will be mass flooding as the snow melts, which
is starting about now. Road damage from potholes alone will cost
billions to fix.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:16:24 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 05:14:45 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
dean...@gmail.com> wrote:

It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.
https://apnews.com/article/colorado-river-water-drought-arizona-california-nevada-dfe162ebd056ea5294552a916f9e9916


We have long-term problems in the US West. Precip is very erratic year
to year, and people are making things worse, diverting waterways and
pumping groundwater at un-sustainable rates.

Houses with wells keep having to drill deeper. A residential well can
cost $60K to drill in some places.

This year, the problem will be mass flooding as the snow melts, which
is starting about now. Road damage from potholes alone will cost
billions to fix.

Those potholes are due to spot erosion of the road base, which was either incompetently constructed or corners cut to save a dime.

Was just reading the Roman empire built about 250,000 miles of road in their approximately 1,000 year existence. And just about all of them have been paved over and are still in use to this day in some form or another. There are drawbacks. The Romans didn\'t believe in going around terrain obstacles, they went up and over. So when you get into hilly terrain, it\'s not unusual to encounter 30% grades, which is kind of yikes, might as well be vertical.

 

[server]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:14:18 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 4/12/2023 5:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.

Like *next* year? :

Water is a serious issue in this part of the country. (It will soon
be an issue in the rest of the country/world, as well!)

We are keenly aware of \"waste\" -- you don\'t \"hose down your driveway\",
don\'t *have* a \"lawn\" (it\'s either \"natural\" or covered with crushed
stone -- various colors/textures), don\'t leave the water running while
brushing your teeth, etc. We xeriscape our yards, use drip irrigation,
the city uses reclaimed (sewer) water to water fields and public
spaces, etc. Folks who are obsessed with green lawns \"plant\" astroturf
in a desperate bid to deny the reality of our climate.

There\'s a shift away from evaporative coolers towards refrigeration
(the running costs are comparable but refrigeration has a much higher
equipment cost); mini-splits are being pushed in the \"less advantaged\"
parts of town (they are eyesores *in* the home... like having \"window
units\" in each room!).

[There\'s actually a great market opportunity for mini-splits in a
*retrofit* application -- install the evaporators in the ducts
so they aren\'t visible and rely on the central blower motor to
move air through them]

The use of evaporative cooling in *outdoor* spaces has decreased
dramatically.

Newer construction must make provisions for grey water recycling.
Swimming pools are discouraged (evaporative losses) -- though I
haven\'t yet seen a program to subsidize folks \"removing\" their pools.

The city will subsidize rainwater harvesting equipment -- but, that\'s
so labor intensive that the money just goes to the installers (who
always seem to raise their rates to absorb any potential savings).

We started planning for our primary citrus trees to be \"deprecated\"
by planting dwarf varieties to take the place of the larger rootstock
plantings currently in place (we harvest ~1000 pounds of fruit
each crop; other folks let their fruit rot on the tree! :< Why not
replace it with something that doesn\'t use as much water??).

But, agri-business is where the most waste lies. Why are we growing
cotton or pecans in the desert? Alfalfa?? Why are they watering
during daylight hours?

Our (local) mindset already has adapted to this reality. Other parts
of the country will be *really* stressed when these concerns manifest
there! (I can recall a \"water emergency\" as a kid and folks were
annoyed that they couldn\'t wash their own cars -- *commercial* car
washes recycle water)

What are you complaining about, you have a big nice pool of water to
the west (the Pacific Ocean)

Desalination plants based on reverse osmosis do not consume a huge
amount of electricity, so even solar panels could be used to make
fresh water for agriculture. With decentralized desalination units,
the solar panels could be on the farms. By keeping them apart, this
would be shadowing the plants for only a few hours a day.A big pipe
with sea water in and a small pipe with very salty water would be
needed while the solar panels would handle the electricity demand
locally on the farm.

If you want a more centralized system, a few nuclear power stations at
the cost could be used by and using some excess heat for
desalination.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 3:41:48 AM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder..com wrote:

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:14:18 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 4/12/2023 5:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.

Like *next* year? :

Water is a serious issue in this part of the country. (It will soon
be an issue in the rest of the country/world, as well!)

We are keenly aware of \"waste\" -- you don\'t \"hose down your driveway\",
don\'t *have* a \"lawn\" (it\'s either \"natural\" or covered with crushed
stone -- various colors/textures), don\'t leave the water running while
brushing your teeth, etc. We xeriscape our yards, use drip irrigation,
the city uses reclaimed (sewer) water to water fields and public
spaces, etc. Folks who are obsessed with green lawns \"plant\" astroturf
in a desperate bid to deny the reality of our climate.

There\'s a shift away from evaporative coolers towards refrigeration
(the running costs are comparable but refrigeration has a much higher
equipment cost); mini-splits are being pushed in the \"less advantaged\"
parts of town (they are eyesores *in* the home... like having \"window
units\" in each room!).

[There\'s actually a great market opportunity for mini-splits in a
*retrofit* application -- install the evaporators in the ducts
so they aren\'t visible and rely on the central blower motor to
move air through them]

The use of evaporative cooling in *outdoor* spaces has decreased
dramatically.

Newer construction must make provisions for grey water recycling.
Swimming pools are discouraged (evaporative losses) -- though I
haven\'t yet seen a program to subsidize folks \"removing\" their pools.

The city will subsidize rainwater harvesting equipment -- but, that\'s
so labor intensive that the money just goes to the installers (who
always seem to raise their rates to absorb any potential savings).

We started planning for our primary citrus trees to be \"deprecated\"
by planting dwarf varieties to take the place of the larger rootstock
plantings currently in place (we harvest ~1000 pounds of fruit
each crop; other folks let their fruit rot on the tree! :< Why not
replace it with something that doesn\'t use as much water??).

But, agri-business is where the most waste lies. Why are we growing
cotton or pecans in the desert? Alfalfa?? Why are they watering
during daylight hours?

Our (local) mindset already has adapted to this reality. Other parts
of the country will be *really* stressed when these concerns manifest
there! (I can recall a \"water emergency\" as a kid and folks were
annoyed that they couldn\'t wash their own cars -- *commercial* car
washes recycle water)

What are you complaining about, you have a big nice pool of water to
the west (the Pacific Ocean)

Desalination plants based on reverse osmosis do not consume a huge
amount of electricity, so even solar panels could be used to make
fresh water for agriculture. With decentralized desalination units,
the solar panels could be on the farms. By keeping them apart, this
would be shadowing the plants for only a few hours a day.A big pipe
with sea water in and a small pipe with very salty water would be
needed while the solar panels would handle the electricity demand
locally on the farm.

If you want a more centralized system, a few nuclear power stations at
the cost could be used by and using some excess heat for
desalination.

Desalination is a really BIG deal, much more than you realize.

https://www.water-technology.net/projects/carlsbaddesalination/

Don\'t bother actually studying anything, keep it simple.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 13 Apr 2023 10:41:37 +0300) it happened
upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
<aoaf3i5tbdcha3kll2ogoqkhmh8f6blurs@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:14:18 -0700, Don Y
blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 4/12/2023 5:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options
are being discussed for the dry years.

Like *next* year? :

Water is a serious issue in this part of the country. (It will soon
be an issue in the rest of the country/world, as well!)

We are keenly aware of \"waste\" -- you don\'t \"hose down your driveway\",
don\'t *have* a \"lawn\" (it\'s either \"natural\" or covered with crushed
stone -- various colors/textures), don\'t leave the water running while
brushing your teeth, etc. We xeriscape our yards, use drip irrigation,
the city uses reclaimed (sewer) water to water fields and public
spaces, etc. Folks who are obsessed with green lawns \"plant\" astroturf
in a desperate bid to deny the reality of our climate.

There\'s a shift away from evaporative coolers towards refrigeration
(the running costs are comparable but refrigeration has a much higher
equipment cost); mini-splits are being pushed in the \"less advantaged\"
parts of town (they are eyesores *in* the home... like having \"window
units\" in each room!).

[There\'s actually a great market opportunity for mini-splits in a
*retrofit* application -- install the evaporators in the ducts
so they aren\'t visible and rely on the central blower motor to
move air through them]

The use of evaporative cooling in *outdoor* spaces has decreased
dramatically.

Newer construction must make provisions for grey water recycling.
Swimming pools are discouraged (evaporative losses) -- though I
haven\'t yet seen a program to subsidize folks \"removing\" their pools.

The city will subsidize rainwater harvesting equipment -- but, that\'s
so labor intensive that the money just goes to the installers (who
always seem to raise their rates to absorb any potential savings).

We started planning for our primary citrus trees to be \"deprecated\"
by planting dwarf varieties to take the place of the larger rootstock
plantings currently in place (we harvest ~1000 pounds of fruit
each crop; other folks let their fruit rot on the tree! :< Why not
replace it with something that doesn\'t use as much water??).

But, agri-business is where the most waste lies. Why are we growing
cotton or pecans in the desert? Alfalfa?? Why are they watering
during daylight hours?

Our (local) mindset already has adapted to this reality. Other parts
of the country will be *really* stressed when these concerns manifest
there! (I can recall a \"water emergency\" as a kid and folks were
annoyed that they couldn\'t wash their own cars -- *commercial* car
washes recycle water)


What are you complaining about, you have a big nice pool of water to
the west (the Pacific Ocean)

Desalination plants based on reverse osmosis do not consume a huge
amount of electricity, so even solar panels could be used to make
fresh water for agriculture. With decentralized desalination units,
the solar panels could be on the farms. By keeping them apart, this
would be shadowing the plants for only a few hours a day.A big pipe
with sea water in and a small pipe with very salty water would be
needed while the solar panels would handle the electricity demand
locally on the farm.

If you want a more centralized system, a few nuclear power stations at
the cost could be used by and using some excess heat for
desalination.

I agree 100% with that.
I wonder, all that climate paranoia and fear mongering to sell snake oil solutions...
IF indeed the polar caps are made of frozen rain water (so not salt water) and
melt into the oceans, would not the salt content decrease?
And plenty of water everywhere, and much land flooded
https://testbook.com/question-answer/the-polar-ice-caps-are-made-of-________-water--5b406f839148270c32b92952
All them climate idiots snake oil scare mongering sellers are always 100% inconsistent.

Get some polar ice and eat some polar bears!
And I was just reading part of Florida is flooded because of worst rains in 50 years...

In the old days houses had rain catching vessels...

Not so bad here either, it is raining again...

But we are heading towards WW3, was just watching the head of German\'s biggest weapon factory on TV talking
about his 100% shares jump because of war in Ukraine etc etc
he was mentioning the importance of electronics in all these new weapons.
US challenging China now.
US basically a big weapons factory, products killing their own people and US creating tensions

exploiting tension everywhere to sell sell sell weapons, often of inferior quality.
Time it got nuked into oblivion, it is asking for it 24/7 it looks.
Was just reading the 9/11 guys were likely CIA members...
CIA\'s mission is to put fuel on any unrest so US Military Complex can sell.

So, water maybe an other sort of worry altogether, all radioactive..
well Japan plans to dump the Fuckupshima storage into the oceans (or did already?)
Anybody selling polar ice caps bottles of water yet?


I do have a water filter for water from the canals and ponds here, add a bit of iodine perhaps.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:39:56 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 13 Apr 2023 10:41:37 +0300) it happened
upsid...@downunder.com wrote in
aoaf3i5tbdcha3kll...@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:14:18 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 4/12/2023 5:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options
are being discussed for the dry years.

Like *next* year? :

Water is a serious issue in this part of the country. (It will soon
be an issue in the rest of the country/world, as well!)

We are keenly aware of \"waste\" -- you don\'t \"hose down your driveway\",
don\'t *have* a \"lawn\" (it\'s either \"natural\" or covered with crushed
stone -- various colors/textures), don\'t leave the water running while
brushing your teeth, etc. We xeriscape our yards, use drip irrigation,
the city uses reclaimed (sewer) water to water fields and public
spaces, etc. Folks who are obsessed with green lawns \"plant\" astroturf
in a desperate bid to deny the reality of our climate.

There\'s a shift away from evaporative coolers towards refrigeration
(the running costs are comparable but refrigeration has a much higher
equipment cost); mini-splits are being pushed in the \"less advantaged\"
parts of town (they are eyesores *in* the home... like having \"window
units\" in each room!).

[There\'s actually a great market opportunity for mini-splits in a
*retrofit* application -- install the evaporators in the ducts
so they aren\'t visible and rely on the central blower motor to
move air through them]

The use of evaporative cooling in *outdoor* spaces has decreased
dramatically.

Newer construction must make provisions for grey water recycling.
Swimming pools are discouraged (evaporative losses) -- though I
haven\'t yet seen a program to subsidize folks \"removing\" their pools.

The city will subsidize rainwater harvesting equipment -- but, that\'s
so labor intensive that the money just goes to the installers (who
always seem to raise their rates to absorb any potential savings).

We started planning for our primary citrus trees to be \"deprecated\"
by planting dwarf varieties to take the place of the larger rootstock
plantings currently in place (we harvest ~1000 pounds of fruit
each crop; other folks let their fruit rot on the tree! :< Why not
replace it with something that doesn\'t use as much water??).

But, agri-business is where the most waste lies. Why are we growing
cotton or pecans in the desert? Alfalfa?? Why are they watering
during daylight hours?

Our (local) mindset already has adapted to this reality. Other parts
of the country will be *really* stressed when these concerns manifest
there! (I can recall a \"water emergency\" as a kid and folks were
annoyed that they couldn\'t wash their own cars -- *commercial* car
washes recycle water)


What are you complaining about, you have a big nice pool of water to
the west (the Pacific Ocean)

Desalination plants based on reverse osmosis do not consume a huge
amount of electricity, so even solar panels could be used to make
fresh water for agriculture. With decentralized desalination units,
the solar panels could be on the farms. By keeping them apart, this
would be shadowing the plants for only a few hours a day.A big pipe
with sea water in and a small pipe with very salty water would be
needed while the solar panels would handle the electricity demand
locally on the farm.

If you want a more centralized system, a few nuclear power stations at
the cost could be used by and using some excess heat for
desalination.
I agree 100% with that.
I wonder, all that climate paranoia and fear mongering to sell snake oil solutions...
IF indeed the polar caps are made of frozen rain water (so not salt water) and
melt into the oceans, would not the salt content decrease?
And plenty of water everywhere, and much land flooded
https://testbook.com/question-answer/the-polar-ice-caps-are-made-of-________-water--5b406f839148270c32b92952
All them climate idiots snake oil scare mongering sellers are always 100% inconsistent.

Get some polar ice and eat some polar bears!
And I was just reading part of Florida is flooded because of worst rains in 50 years...

In the old days houses had rain catching vessels...

Not so bad here either, it is raining again...

But we are heading towards WW3, was just watching the head of German\'s biggest weapon factory on TV talking
about his 100% shares jump because of war in Ukraine etc etc
he was mentioning the importance of electronics in all these new weapons.
US challenging China now.
US basically a big weapons factory, products killing their own people and US creating tensions

exploiting tension everywhere to sell sell sell weapons, often of inferior quality.

Sounds like you\'re confusing U.S. with Russia.

Time it got nuked into oblivion, it is asking for it 24/7 it looks.
Was just reading the 9/11 guys were likely CIA members...
CIA\'s mission is to put fuel on any unrest so US Military Complex can sell.

So, water maybe an other sort of worry altogether, all radioactive..
well Japan plans to dump the Fuckupshima storage into the oceans (or did already?)
Anybody selling polar ice caps bottles of water yet?

Tritium is produced naturally in the upper atmosphere when cosmic rays strike nitrogen molecules in the air. Tritium is also produced during nuclear weapons explosions, and as a byproduct in nuclear reactors.

Tritium released into the ocean from Fukushima storage is diluted to the same concentrations as occur naturally.

https://www.epa.gov/radiation/radionuclide-basics-tritium

I do have a water filter for water from the canals and ponds here, add a bit of iodine perhaps.

As the climate warms, all that water will contain amoebae.

 

[Don Y]

On 4/13/2023 12:41 AM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:14:18 -0700, Don Y
blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 4/12/2023 5:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.

Like *next* year? :

Water is a serious issue in this part of the country. (It will soon
be an issue in the rest of the country/world, as well!)

We are keenly aware of \"waste\" -- you don\'t \"hose down your driveway\",
don\'t *have* a \"lawn\" (it\'s either \"natural\" or covered with crushed
stone -- various colors/textures), don\'t leave the water running while
brushing your teeth, etc. We xeriscape our yards, use drip irrigation,
the city uses reclaimed (sewer) water to water fields and public
spaces, etc. Folks who are obsessed with green lawns \"plant\" astroturf
in a desperate bid to deny the reality of our climate.

There\'s a shift away from evaporative coolers towards refrigeration
(the running costs are comparable but refrigeration has a much higher
equipment cost); mini-splits are being pushed in the \"less advantaged\"
parts of town (they are eyesores *in* the home... like having \"window
units\" in each room!).

[There\'s actually a great market opportunity for mini-splits in a
*retrofit* application -- install the evaporators in the ducts
so they aren\'t visible and rely on the central blower motor to
move air through them]

The use of evaporative cooling in *outdoor* spaces has decreased
dramatically.

Newer construction must make provisions for grey water recycling.
Swimming pools are discouraged (evaporative losses) -- though I
haven\'t yet seen a program to subsidize folks \"removing\" their pools.

The city will subsidize rainwater harvesting equipment -- but, that\'s
so labor intensive that the money just goes to the installers (who
always seem to raise their rates to absorb any potential savings).

We started planning for our primary citrus trees to be \"deprecated\"
by planting dwarf varieties to take the place of the larger rootstock
plantings currently in place (we harvest ~1000 pounds of fruit
each crop; other folks let their fruit rot on the tree! :< Why not
replace it with something that doesn\'t use as much water??).

But, agri-business is where the most waste lies. Why are we growing
cotton or pecans in the desert? Alfalfa?? Why are they watering
during daylight hours?

Our (local) mindset already has adapted to this reality. Other parts
of the country will be *really* stressed when these concerns manifest
there! (I can recall a \"water emergency\" as a kid and folks were
annoyed that they couldn\'t wash their own cars -- *commercial* car
washes recycle water)


What are you complaining about, you have a big nice pool of water to
the west (the Pacific Ocean)

How does that help those of us hundreds of miles from those
large bodies of water?

The CAP cost ~$4B for a ~350 mile \"open\" canal (considerably larger
than \"a big pipe\"). Do you think it would be cheaper to run a 350
mile pipe from ~San Diego to ~Feenigs? AFTER building the desalinization
plant?

Current thinking is to head south and try to cut a deal with MX to
site a plant ~Puerto Peñasco to cut the (as the crow flies) distance
to ~150 miles.

So, in addition to funding the plant (in a foreign country) and funding
the \"aqueduct\", you\'d also have the political and environmental issues
to address. As well as the potential risk of having your domestic
water supply sourced by another country (which the US routinely likes
to blame for border problems).

And, what does that do for locations beyond southern AZ?

Desalination plants based on reverse osmosis do not consume a huge
amount of electricity, so even solar panels could be used to make
fresh water for agriculture. With decentralized desalination units,
the solar panels could be on the farms. By keeping them apart, this
would be shadowing the plants for only a few hours a day.A big pipe
with sea water in and a small pipe with very salty water would be
needed while the solar panels would handle the electricity demand
locally on the farm.

Desalinization offers a great \"energy storage option\" -- no batteries,
no feeding into the grid, etc. You store the *result* of using the
energy when the sun is no longer available to produce more (think of
it as \"off time\" for the plant)

But, that means you have to upsize the plant so it can do a day\'s
worth of work in the dayLIGHT portion of the day.

If you want a more centralized system, a few nuclear power stations at
the cost could be used by and using some excess heat for
desalination.

Everything is easy -- if money is no object!

The first steps are to encourage voluntary conservation. We\'ve done pretty
well with that. But, the pols use the savings to justify more *development*
instead of trying to build a buffer for the existing development.

Next will be forced/coerced conservation -- changing water rates to penalize
big users (e.g., folks with swimming pools, agribusiness, homeowners who
grow fruit, etc.). This is a lot trickier as there are laws on the books
to prevent \"weaponizing\" water. Otherwise, the golf courses would be long
gone!

After that, we\'ll start using \"treated effluent\".

All of this designed to keep folks from actually dealing with the underlying
problem -- that water is scarce in this part of the world so you should be
rethinking how to use the land \"long term\".

[They *still* haven\'t built a 5-star resort atop Mt Washington! (sarcasm)]

Just like you\'re not going to stop Florida from getting \"scrubbed clean\"
each year with hurricanes. Or, California to stop burning. Or, Midwestern
flooding. etc.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:56:12 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote in
<03145031-7544-419d-8c99-a4e56721371dn@googlegroups.com>:

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:39:56 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrot=
e:
On a sunny day (Thu, 13 Apr 2023 10:41:37 +0300) it happened
upsid...@downunder.com wrote in
aoaf3i5tbdcha3kll...@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:14:18 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 4/12/2023 5:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipi=
tation in the Southwest & West this year. Options
are being discussed for the dry years.

Like *next* year? :

Water is a serious issue in this part of the country. (It will soon
be an issue in the rest of the country/world, as well!)

We are keenly aware of \"waste\" -- you don\'t \"hose down your driveway\",=

don\'t *have* a \"lawn\" (it\'s either \"natural\" or covered with crushed
stone -- various colors/textures), don\'t leave the water running while=

brushing your teeth, etc. We xeriscape our yards, use drip irrigation,=

the city uses reclaimed (sewer) water to water fields and public
spaces, etc. Folks who are obsessed with green lawns \"plant\" astroturf=

in a desperate bid to deny the reality of our climate.

There\'s a shift away from evaporative coolers towards refrigeration
(the running costs are comparable but refrigeration has a much higher=

equipment cost); mini-splits are being pushed in the \"less advantaged\"=

parts of town (they are eyesores *in* the home... like having \"window=

units\" in each room!).

[There\'s actually a great market opportunity for mini-splits in a
*retrofit* application -- install the evaporators in the ducts
so they aren\'t visible and rely on the central blower motor to
move air through them]

The use of evaporative cooling in *outdoor* spaces has decreased
dramatically.

Newer construction must make provisions for grey water recycling.
Swimming pools are discouraged (evaporative losses) -- though I
haven\'t yet seen a program to subsidize folks \"removing\" their pools.=


The city will subsidize rainwater harvesting equipment -- but, that\'s=

so labor intensive that the money just goes to the installers (who
always seem to raise their rates to absorb any potential savings).

We started planning for our primary citrus trees to be \"deprecated\"
by planting dwarf varieties to take the place of the larger rootstock=

plantings currently in place (we harvest ~1000 pounds of fruit
each crop; other folks let their fruit rot on the tree! :< Why not
replace it with something that doesn\'t use as much water??).

But, agri-business is where the most waste lies. Why are we growing
cotton or pecans in the desert? Alfalfa?? Why are they watering
during daylight hours?

Our (local) mindset already has adapted to this reality. Other parts
of the country will be *really* stressed when these concerns manifest=

there! (I can recall a \"water emergency\" as a kid and folks were
annoyed that they couldn\'t wash their own cars -- *commercial* car
washes recycle water)


What are you complaining about, you have a big nice pool of water to
the west (the Pacific Ocean)

Desalination plants based on reverse osmosis do not consume a huge
amount of electricity, so even solar panels could be used to make
fresh water for agriculture. With decentralized desalination units,
the solar panels could be on the farms. By keeping them apart, this
would be shadowing the plants for only a few hours a day.A big pipe
with sea water in and a small pipe with very salty water would be
needed while the solar panels would handle the electricity demand
locally on the farm.

If you want a more centralized system, a few nuclear power stations at=

the cost could be used by and using some excess heat for
desalination.
I agree 100% with that.
I wonder, all that climate paranoia and fear mongering to sell snake oil =
solutions...
IF indeed the polar caps are made of frozen rain water (so not salt water=
) and
melt into the oceans, would not the salt content decrease?
And plenty of water everywhere, and much land flooded
https://testbook.com/question-answer/the-polar-ice-caps-are-made-of-_____=
___-water--5b406f839148270c32b92952
All them climate idiots snake oil scare mongering sellers are always 100%=
inconsistent.

Get some polar ice and eat some polar bears!
And I was just reading part of Florida is flooded because of worst rains =
in 50 years...

In the old days houses had rain catching vessels...

Not so bad here either, it is raining again...

But we are heading towards WW3, was just watching the head of German\'s bi=
ggest weapon factory on TV talking
about his 100% shares jump because of war in Ukraine etc etc
he was mentioning the importance of electronics in all these new weapons.=

US challenging China now.
US basically a big weapons factory, products killing their own people and=
US creating tensions

exploiting tension everywhere to sell sell sell weapons, often of inferio=
r quality.

Sounds like you\'re confusing U.S. with Russia.

Vietnam agent orange
Iraq depleted uranium ammo
Afghanistan drones on innocent people
Ukraine forcing Europe to give weapons to Ukraine so they can sell crap F35 and similar shit to the EU to refill their supplies.
We, in the EU, need to kick out American war mongers.
It is NO coincidence that after the withdrawal from Afghanistan the war in Ukraine started
provocation..
That other demon-crate Bill Clignon also played an European war game.

Time it got nuked into oblivion, it is asking for it 24/7 it looks.
Was just reading the 9/11 guys were likely CIA members...
CIA\'s mission is to put fuel on any unrest so US Military Complex can sel=
l.

So, water maybe an other sort of worry altogether, all radioactive..
well Japan plans to dump the Fuckupshima storage into the oceans (or did =
already?)
Anybody selling polar ice caps bottles of water yet?

Tritium is produced naturally in the upper atmosphere when cosmic rays stri=
ke nitrogen molecules in the air. Tritium is also produced during nuclear w=
eapons explosions, and as a byproduct in nuclear reactors.

https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/tri_pic/

Tritium released into the ocean from Fukushima storage is diluted to the sa=
me concentrations as occur naturally.

But is not the only thing in the containers they dump from
Even then its dangerous to drink.

>https://www.epa.gov/radiation/radionuclide-basics-tritium

I have these tritium fishing lights...
http://panteltje.nl/pub/tritium_light_movie_mvi_3243.avi

I do have a water filter for water from the canals and ponds here, add a =
bit of iodine perhaps.

As the climate warms, all that water will contain amoebae.

It is an anti bacterial filter.
You can get those in any decent outdoor shop.
And cooking water also helps...

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-13 09:41, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:14:18 -0700, Don Y
blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 4/12/2023 5:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.

Like *next* year? :

Water is a serious issue in this part of the country. (It will soon
be an issue in the rest of the country/world, as well!)

We are keenly aware of \"waste\" -- you don\'t \"hose down your driveway\",
don\'t *have* a \"lawn\" (it\'s either \"natural\" or covered with crushed
stone -- various colors/textures), don\'t leave the water running while
brushing your teeth, etc. We xeriscape our yards, use drip irrigation,
the city uses reclaimed (sewer) water to water fields and public
spaces, etc. Folks who are obsessed with green lawns \"plant\" astroturf
in a desperate bid to deny the reality of our climate.

There\'s a shift away from evaporative coolers towards refrigeration
(the running costs are comparable but refrigeration has a much higher
equipment cost); mini-splits are being pushed in the \"less advantaged\"
parts of town (they are eyesores *in* the home... like having \"window
units\" in each room!).

[There\'s actually a great market opportunity for mini-splits in a
*retrofit* application -- install the evaporators in the ducts
so they aren\'t visible and rely on the central blower motor to
move air through them]

The use of evaporative cooling in *outdoor* spaces has decreased
dramatically.

Newer construction must make provisions for grey water recycling.
Swimming pools are discouraged (evaporative losses) -- though I
haven\'t yet seen a program to subsidize folks \"removing\" their pools.

The city will subsidize rainwater harvesting equipment -- but, that\'s
so labor intensive that the money just goes to the installers (who
always seem to raise their rates to absorb any potential savings).

We started planning for our primary citrus trees to be \"deprecated\"
by planting dwarf varieties to take the place of the larger rootstock
plantings currently in place (we harvest ~1000 pounds of fruit
each crop; other folks let their fruit rot on the tree! :< Why not
replace it with something that doesn\'t use as much water??).

But, agri-business is where the most waste lies. Why are we growing
cotton or pecans in the desert? Alfalfa?? Why are they watering
during daylight hours?

Our (local) mindset already has adapted to this reality. Other parts
of the country will be *really* stressed when these concerns manifest
there! (I can recall a \"water emergency\" as a kid and folks were
annoyed that they couldn\'t wash their own cars -- *commercial* car
washes recycle water)


What are you complaining about, you have a big nice pool of water to
the west (the Pacific Ocean)

Desalination plants based on reverse osmosis do not consume a huge
amount of electricity, so even solar panels could be used to make
fresh water for agriculture. With decentralized desalination units,
the solar panels could be on the farms. By keeping them apart, this
would be shadowing the plants for only a few hours a day.A big pipe
with sea water in and a small pipe with very salty water would be
needed while the solar panels would handle the electricity demand
locally on the farm.

There is a problem with that. What do you with the brine output? It is a
pollutant.

Here (Murcia, Spain) farmers have being doing that: taking salty water
from wells, and dumping the brine into the environment, into the
\"ramblas\", the dry torrents that take rain water to the sea. It is a
pollutant, it is one of the reason causing the ecological disaster of
the Mar Menor.


Oh, and farmers complain that the water produced by sea desalinization
plants is way to expensive to make a profit from agriculture. They want
instead more water from rivers up north, which of course is never going
to come.

So yes, water wars indeed are ahead, in many parts of the world.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:25:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:16:24?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 05:14:45 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
dean...@gmail.com> wrote:

It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.
https://apnews.com/article/colorado-river-water-drought-arizona-california-nevada-dfe162ebd056ea5294552a916f9e9916


We have long-term problems in the US West. Precip is very erratic year
to year, and people are making things worse, diverting waterways and
pumping groundwater at un-sustainable rates.

Houses with wells keep having to drill deeper. A residential well can
cost $60K to drill in some places.

This year, the problem will be mass flooding as the snow melts, which
is starting about now. Road damage from potholes alone will cost
billions to fix.

Those potholes are due to spot erosion of the road base, which was either incompetently constructed or corners cut to save a dime.

The nasty is newly-created underground streams that make cavities
under the road. Not every road extended down to bedrock.


>Was just reading the Roman empire built about 250,000 miles of road in their approximately 1,000 year existence. And just about all of them have been paved over and are still in use to this day in some form or another. There are drawbacks. The Romans didn\'t believe in going around terrain obstacles, they went up and over. So when you get into hilly terrain, it\'s not unusual to encounter 30% grades, which is kind of yikes, might as well be vertical.

We have several over-30% streets around here. Fun. The sidewalks are
often stairs.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-13 15:48, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:25:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:16:24?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 05:14:45 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
dean...@gmail.com> wrote:

It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.
https://apnews.com/article/colorado-river-water-drought-arizona-california-nevada-dfe162ebd056ea5294552a916f9e9916


We have long-term problems in the US West. Precip is very erratic year
to year, and people are making things worse, diverting waterways and
pumping groundwater at un-sustainable rates.

Houses with wells keep having to drill deeper. A residential well can
cost $60K to drill in some places.

This year, the problem will be mass flooding as the snow melts, which
is starting about now. Road damage from potholes alone will cost
billions to fix.

Those potholes are due to spot erosion of the road base, which was either incompetently constructed or corners cut to save a dime.


The nasty is newly-created underground streams that make cavities
under the road. Not every road extended down to bedrock.


Was just reading the Roman empire built about 250,000 miles of road in their approximately 1,000 year existence. And just about all of them have been paved over and are still in use to this day in some form or another. There are drawbacks. The Romans didn\'t believe in going around terrain obstacles, they went up and over. So when you get into hilly terrain, it\'s not unusual to encounter 30% grades, which is kind of yikes, might as well be vertical.

We have several over-30% streets around here. Fun. The sidewalks are
often stairs.

I have not heard of 30% slope roman roads. As far as I know, all of them
were built with a maximum inclination in order to keep speedy transport.
We know of roman roads winding around the mountains as they climb, Spain
is very hilly.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:10:54 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-13 15:48, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:25:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:16:24?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 05:14:45 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
dean...@gmail.com> wrote:

It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.
https://apnews.com/article/colorado-river-water-drought-arizona-california-nevada-dfe162ebd056ea5294552a916f9e9916


We have long-term problems in the US West. Precip is very erratic year
to year, and people are making things worse, diverting waterways and
pumping groundwater at un-sustainable rates.

Houses with wells keep having to drill deeper. A residential well can
cost $60K to drill in some places.

This year, the problem will be mass flooding as the snow melts, which
is starting about now. Road damage from potholes alone will cost
billions to fix.

Those potholes are due to spot erosion of the road base, which was either incompetently constructed or corners cut to save a dime.


The nasty is newly-created underground streams that make cavities
under the road. Not every road extended down to bedrock.


Was just reading the Roman empire built about 250,000 miles of road in their approximately 1,000 year existence. And just about all of them have been paved over and are still in use to this day in some form or another. There are drawbacks. The Romans didn\'t believe in going around terrain obstacles, they went up and over. So when you get into hilly terrain, it\'s not unusual to encounter 30% grades, which is kind of yikes, might as well be vertical.

We have several over-30% streets around here. Fun. The sidewalks are
often stairs.

I have not heard of 30% slope roman roads. As far as I know, all of them
were built with a maximum inclination in order to keep speedy transport.
We know of roman roads winding around the mountains as they climb, Spain
is very hilly.

Can a horse manage a 30% slope?

Google says the roman roads max\'d at 8%.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-13 21:00, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:10:54 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-13 15:48, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:25:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:16:24?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 05:14:45 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
dean...@gmail.com> wrote:

It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.
https://apnews.com/article/colorado-river-water-drought-arizona-california-nevada-dfe162ebd056ea5294552a916f9e9916


We have long-term problems in the US West. Precip is very erratic year
to year, and people are making things worse, diverting waterways and
pumping groundwater at un-sustainable rates.

Houses with wells keep having to drill deeper. A residential well can
cost $60K to drill in some places.

This year, the problem will be mass flooding as the snow melts, which
is starting about now. Road damage from potholes alone will cost
billions to fix.

Those potholes are due to spot erosion of the road base, which was either incompetently constructed or corners cut to save a dime.


The nasty is newly-created underground streams that make cavities
under the road. Not every road extended down to bedrock.


Was just reading the Roman empire built about 250,000 miles of road in their approximately 1,000 year existence. And just about all of them have been paved over and are still in use to this day in some form or another. There are drawbacks. The Romans didn\'t believe in going around terrain obstacles, they went up and over. So when you get into hilly terrain, it\'s not unusual to encounter 30% grades, which is kind of yikes, might as well be vertical.

We have several over-30% streets around here. Fun. The sidewalks are
often stairs.

I have not heard of 30% slope roman roads. As far as I know, all of them
were built with a maximum inclination in order to keep speedy transport.
We know of roman roads winding around the mountains as they climb, Spain
is very hilly.

Can a horse manage a 30% slope?

Google says the roman roads max\'d at 8%.

That is reasonable.

On their aqueducts, they could keep an slope of 0.1% (wikipedia). On a
documentary the cited a maximum figure, maybe 0.4%, but I don\'t
remember. Too much and there was too much erosion, too little and there
were too many deposits. Amazing engineers they were, for the time.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[server]

On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

Desalination plants based on reverse osmosis do not consume a huge
amount of electricity, so even solar panels could be used to make
fresh water for agriculture. With decentralized desalination units,
the solar panels could be on the farms. By keeping them apart, this
would be shadowing the plants for only a few hours a day.A big pipe
with sea water in and a small pipe with very salty water would be
needed while the solar panels would handle the electricity demand
locally on the farm.

If you want a more centralized system, a few nuclear power stations at
the cost could be used by and using some excess heat for
desalination.

Desalination is a really BIG deal, much more than you realize.

https://www.water-technology.net/projects/carlsbaddesalination/

Don\'t bother actually studying anything, keep it simple.

That Carlsbad plant is quite small compared to many sites in Europe
and Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination_by_country

The Carlsbad plant has about 200 000 m3/day or 2500 l/s capacity. The
plant was powered by 5000 m2 solar panels. Assuming 6 hours of
production at 100 W/m2 or 500 kWh/h during 6 daylight hours or 125 kWh
as daily average.

If that 20 000 m3/day is divided between only 110 000 inhabitants,
each will get nearly 2000 l/day, which should be enough for drinking
and a shower.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 4:25:00 PM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder..com wrote:

On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 01:18:08 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

Desalination plants based on reverse osmosis do not consume a huge
amount of electricity, so even solar panels could be used to make
fresh water for agriculture. With decentralized desalination units,
the solar panels could be on the farms. By keeping them apart, this
would be shadowing the plants for only a few hours a day.A big pipe
with sea water in and a small pipe with very salty water would be
needed while the solar panels would handle the electricity demand
locally on the farm.

If you want a more centralized system, a few nuclear power stations at
the cost could be used by and using some excess heat for
desalination.

Desalination is a really BIG deal, much more than you realize.

https://www.water-technology.net/projects/carlsbaddesalination/

Don\'t bother actually studying anything, keep it simple.
That Carlsbad plant is quite small compared to many sites in Europe
and Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination_by_country

If you look at the wiki reference, you\'ll find the U.S. plants are designed around supplying water to a locality. In the case of Carlsbad , the locality is San Diego, and even then they only supply about 10% of the water demand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_%22Bud%22_Lewis_Carlsbad_Desalination_Plant

The instances of positively huge operations are national government projects to supply an entire country, so of course they will be much larger.

This monster in Israel is the world\'s largest.

https://www.water-technology.net/projects/israel/

That one is powered by fossil fuel, not nearly as advanced as Carlsbad.

The Carlsbad plant has about 200 000 m3/day or 2500 l/s capacity. The
plant was powered by 5000 m2 solar panels. Assuming 6 hours of
production at 100 W/m2 or 500 kWh/h during 6 daylight hours or 125 kWh
as daily average.

If that 20 000 m3/day is divided between only 110 000 inhabitants,
each will get nearly 2000 l/day, which should be enough for drinking
and a shower.

It\'s not what the plant can supply so much as how much its water costs. For Carlsbad \"The cost of water from the plant will be $100 to $200 more per acre-foot than recycled water (approximately 0.045 cents per gallon), $1,000 to $1,100 more than reservoir water (approx. 0.32 cents per gallon), but $100 to $200 less than importing water from outside the county.[42] As of April 2015, San Diego County imported 90% of its water.[13] A conglomerate of California-based environmentalist groups, the Desal Response Group, claimed that the plant will cost San Diego County $108 million a year.\" There was clearly a compromise there. That acre-foot measure seems strange for a water supply measure, but makes perfect sense in gauging draw-down of natural sources like rivers and reservoirs. The cubic-foot / meter gobbledygook is totally meaningless without a demand for comparison, and even then, in California especially, they translate it to an acre-foot draw-down of their supply..

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 3:00:51 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 16:10:54 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-13 15:48, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 08:25:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 11:16:24?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 05:14:45 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
dean...@gmail.com> wrote:

It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.
https://apnews.com/article/colorado-river-water-drought-arizona-california-nevada-dfe162ebd056ea5294552a916f9e9916


We have long-term problems in the US West. Precip is very erratic year
to year, and people are making things worse, diverting waterways and
pumping groundwater at un-sustainable rates.

Houses with wells keep having to drill deeper. A residential well can
cost $60K to drill in some places.

This year, the problem will be mass flooding as the snow melts, which
is starting about now. Road damage from potholes alone will cost
billions to fix.

Those potholes are due to spot erosion of the road base, which was either incompetently constructed or corners cut to save a dime.


The nasty is newly-created underground streams that make cavities
under the road. Not every road extended down to bedrock.


Was just reading the Roman empire built about 250,000 miles of road in their approximately 1,000 year existence. And just about all of them have been paved over and are still in use to this day in some form or another. There are drawbacks. The Romans didn\'t believe in going around terrain obstacles, they went up and over. So when you get into hilly terrain, it\'s not unusual to encounter 30% grades, which is kind of yikes, might as well be vertical.

We have several over-30% streets around here. Fun. The sidewalks are
often stairs.

I have not heard of 30% slope roman roads. As far as I know, all of them
were built with a maximum inclination in order to keep speedy transport.
We know of roman roads winding around the mountains as they climb, Spain
is very hilly.
Can a horse manage a 30% slope?

Horses can be adapted to steep mountainous terrain as well as high altitude.. They are incredibly rugged animals.

Google says the roman roads max\'d at 8%.

I think U.S. DOT limits it to 7%.

\"Maximum grade: The maximum permissible vertical angle, or grade, along the highway is determined from terrain and design speed,[4] with up to 6% generally allowed in mountainous areas, 5% in rolling terrain, and 4% on level terrain. An additional 1% is allowed in urban areas.\"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_standards

Roman Roads:

\"Gradients of 10%–12% are known in ordinary terrain, 15%–20% in mountainous country. The Roman emphasis on constructing straight roads often resulted in steep slopes relatively impractical for most commercial traffic; over the years the Romans themselves realized this and built longer, but more manageable, alternatives to existing roads. Roman roads generally went straight up and down hills, rather than in a serpentine pattern of switchbacks.\"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads

That\'s google AI lying to you.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

torsdag den 13. april 2023 kl. 15.30.26 UTC+2 skrev Carlos E.R.:

On 2023-04-13 09:41, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:14:18 -0700, Don Y
blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 4/12/2023 5:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.

Like *next* year? :

Water is a serious issue in this part of the country. (It will soon
be an issue in the rest of the country/world, as well!)

We are keenly aware of \"waste\" -- you don\'t \"hose down your driveway\",
don\'t *have* a \"lawn\" (it\'s either \"natural\" or covered with crushed
stone -- various colors/textures), don\'t leave the water running while
brushing your teeth, etc. We xeriscape our yards, use drip irrigation,
the city uses reclaimed (sewer) water to water fields and public
spaces, etc. Folks who are obsessed with green lawns \"plant\" astroturf
in a desperate bid to deny the reality of our climate.

There\'s a shift away from evaporative coolers towards refrigeration
(the running costs are comparable but refrigeration has a much higher
equipment cost); mini-splits are being pushed in the \"less advantaged\"
parts of town (they are eyesores *in* the home... like having \"window
units\" in each room!).

[There\'s actually a great market opportunity for mini-splits in a
*retrofit* application -- install the evaporators in the ducts
so they aren\'t visible and rely on the central blower motor to
move air through them]

The use of evaporative cooling in *outdoor* spaces has decreased
dramatically.

Newer construction must make provisions for grey water recycling.
Swimming pools are discouraged (evaporative losses) -- though I
haven\'t yet seen a program to subsidize folks \"removing\" their pools.

The city will subsidize rainwater harvesting equipment -- but, that\'s
so labor intensive that the money just goes to the installers (who
always seem to raise their rates to absorb any potential savings).

We started planning for our primary citrus trees to be \"deprecated\"
by planting dwarf varieties to take the place of the larger rootstock
plantings currently in place (we harvest ~1000 pounds of fruit
each crop; other folks let their fruit rot on the tree! :< Why not
replace it with something that doesn\'t use as much water??).

But, agri-business is where the most waste lies. Why are we growing
cotton or pecans in the desert? Alfalfa?? Why are they watering
during daylight hours?

Our (local) mindset already has adapted to this reality. Other parts
of the country will be *really* stressed when these concerns manifest
there! (I can recall a \"water emergency\" as a kid and folks were
annoyed that they couldn\'t wash their own cars -- *commercial* car
washes recycle water)


What are you complaining about, you have a big nice pool of water to
the west (the Pacific Ocean)

Desalination plants based on reverse osmosis do not consume a huge
amount of electricity, so even solar panels could be used to make
fresh water for agriculture. With decentralized desalination units,
the solar panels could be on the farms. By keeping them apart, this
would be shadowing the plants for only a few hours a day.A big pipe
with sea water in and a small pipe with very salty water would be
needed while the solar panels would handle the electricity demand
locally on the farm.
There is a problem with that. What do you with the brine output? It is a
pollutant.

Here (Murcia, Spain) farmers have being doing that: taking salty water
from wells, and dumping the brine into the environment, into the
\"ramblas\", the dry torrents that take rain water to the sea. It is a
pollutant, it is one of the reason causing the ecological disaster of
the Mar Menor.


Oh, and farmers complain that the water produced by sea desalinization
plants is way to expensive to make a profit from agriculture. They want
instead more water from rivers up north, which of course is never going
to come.

So yes, water wars indeed are ahead, in many parts of the world.

afaik Gran Canaria get more than 50% of its water from desalination and has agriculture

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 8:14:29 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

On 4/12/2023 5:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
It seems a bit odd to discuss water shortages with all of the precipitation in the Southwest & West this year. Options are being discussed for the dry years.
Like *next* year? :

Water is a serious issue in this part of the country. (It will soon
be an issue in the rest of the country/world, as well!)

We are keenly aware of \"waste\" -- you don\'t \"hose down your driveway\",
don\'t *have* a \"lawn\" (it\'s either \"natural\" or covered with crushed
stone -- various colors/textures), don\'t leave the water running while
brushing your teeth, etc. We xeriscape our yards, use drip irrigation,
the city uses reclaimed (sewer) water to water fields and public
spaces, etc. Folks who are obsessed with green lawns \"plant\" astroturf
in a desperate bid to deny the reality of our climate.

There\'s a shift away from evaporative coolers towards refrigeration
(the running costs are comparable but refrigeration has a much higher
equipment cost); mini-splits are being pushed in the \"less advantaged\"
parts of town (they are eyesores *in* the home... like having \"window
units\" in each room!).

[There\'s actually a great market opportunity for mini-splits in a
*retrofit* application -- install the evaporators in the ducts
so they aren\'t visible and rely on the central blower motor to
move air through them]

The use of evaporative cooling in *outdoor* spaces has decreased
dramatically.

Newer construction must make provisions for grey water recycling.
Swimming pools are discouraged (evaporative losses) -- though I
haven\'t yet seen a program to subsidize folks \"removing\" their pools.

The city will subsidize rainwater harvesting equipment -- but, that\'s
so labor intensive that the money just goes to the installers (who
always seem to raise their rates to absorb any potential savings).

We started planning for our primary citrus trees to be \"deprecated\"
by planting dwarf varieties to take the place of the larger rootstock
plantings currently in place (we harvest ~1000 pounds of fruit
each crop; other folks let their fruit rot on the tree! :< Why not
replace it with something that doesn\'t use as much water??).

But, agri-business is where the most waste lies. Why are we growing
cotton or pecans in the desert? Alfalfa?? Why are they watering
during daylight hours?

Government subsidies? I suspect the farmers are more concerned about getting
the entire crop irrigated on time than on the increased evaporation during the day.

It\'s pretty dry here. Fields here are probably at their most susceptible
to blowing. It planting season and the ground is the most worked to get the seed
started. I bet the corn planters will barely be out of the field before the center pivots
get started. You can thank Frank Zybach in part if you have a nice steak on your plate.
<https://livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe40s/water/frank-zybach-pivots/>
A lot of dirt was blowing today. It was like fog in some places. I met several vehicles on
I-80 with their headlights on. Mom used to talk about the Dirty 30s. I guess dirt was blowing
from Oklahoma to here in Nebraska. Kansas barbed wire fences didn\'t stop much.
The weather people were talking about record highs today. I\'m not terribly surprised when a record
high temperature they cite is from the 1930s.
Farmers here used to rely on furrow irrigation for the most part. Water running down rows of corn looks
nice but it\'s inefficient. It over irrigates some some spots. Farmers didn\'t have time to shut down the rows that were through sometimes. The little creek that runs through our farm would sometimes go up during irrigation season despite no rain.
Groundwater furnishes almost all of the water for irrigation here. The levels have gone up the last few years. The lowest levels were back in the late 1970s. The state set up Natural Resources Districts to monitor such things. I think that\'s the trigger point for irrigation control to kick in.
The only restriction on irrigation timing is later in the summer. The shutdowns are because of lack of electricity. The farmers get reduced rates if they let the REAs shut down the wells from around 10 AM. until 10 PM. or so. It isn\'t because of water use but the increased load from air conditioning. God knows we don\'t want to let some college boy with a tie to break into a sweat.

Our (local) mindset already has adapted to this reality. Other parts
of the country will be *really* stressed when these concerns manifest
there! (I can recall a \"water emergency\" as a kid and folks were
annoyed that they couldn\'t wash their own cars -- *commercial* car
washes recycle water)

It\'s hard to imagine the effect if a farm went from irrigated to dryland because of government edict. The value would drop to maybe half.
There\'s a bit here about the Dutch government trying to interfere with the good old profit motive.
<https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/farmers-protest-party-set-shake-up-dutch-political-landscape-2023-03-15/>
Sri Lanken officials tried to limit nitrogen application for their farmers.
<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/20/sri-lanka-fertiliser-ban-president-rajapaksa-farmers-harvests-collapse>.