OT: Solar farm with batteries, to power LA

[Winfield Hill]

Discusses the ins and outs of LA's contract, for a
400MW AC, 530MW DC solar farm with battery storage:

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-09-10/ladwp-votes-on-eland-solar-contract

And an older article:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/30/los-angeles-8minute-solar-announce-25-year-ppa-at-under-2-cents-per-kwh/


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

On 13 Sep 2019 08:52:33 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Discusses the ins and outs of LA's contract, for a
400MW AC, 530MW DC solar farm with battery storage:

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-09-10/ladwp-votes-on-eland-solar-contract

And an older article:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/30/los-angeles-8minute-solar-announce-25-year-ppa-at-under-2-cents-per-kwh/

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will deliver that for
two hours. Why bother?

Shutting down ng power plants will get interesting.

Massive-scale use of lithium batteries has issues of its own.

 

[Winfield Hill]

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will
deliver that for two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 12:18:22 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On 13 Sep 2019 08:52:33 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:


Discusses the ins and outs of LA's contract, for a
400MW AC, 530MW DC solar farm with battery storage:

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-09-10/ladwp-votes-on-eland-solar-contract

And an older article:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/30/los-angeles-8minute-solar-announce-25-year-ppa-at-under-2-cents-per-kwh/

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will deliver that for
two hours. Why bother?

Shutting down ng power plants will get interesting.

Massive-scale use of lithium batteries has issues of its own.

Now we have heard from the queen of the non-statement.

"Why bother?", "get interesting" and "has issues of its own". I guess that sums it up. No need to actually talk about any details.

--

Rick C.

- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Steve Wilson]

Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will deliver that for
two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.

They need to get HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilation) installed in their homes. It
works the same in summer as it does in winter. Completely passive except for
fans.

Ontario, Canada has made it mandantory for all new home construction. Huge
energy savings in summer and winter.

 

[John Larkin]

On 13 Sep 2019 09:34:25 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com>
wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will
deliver that for two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.

If CO2 reduction is the goal, China is building enough coal plants
every week to crush the savings of that thing many times over.

There might be a lithium issue too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium#Reserves

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 1:46:12 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On 13 Sep 2019 09:34:25 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will
deliver that for two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.

If CO2 reduction is the goal, China is building enough coal plants
every week to crush the savings of that thing many times over.

There might be a lithium issue too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium#Reserves

JL is so good at the FUD thing it's fuddy, I mean funny. Rather than to make any sort of argument, he just tosses a turd in the soup bowl and leaves.

To save you the trouble the link he posted shows there are enough lithium reserves to handle current production for 400 years. Then there are many times more than that as resources (not presently economically recoverable).

From JL's link, "Another 2011 study at the University of Michigan and Ford Motor Company found enough resources to support global demand until 2100" or about the same amount of time as world wide uranium reserves.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:55:45 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will deliver that for
two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.

They need to get HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilation) installed in their homes. It
works the same in summer as it does in winter. Completely passive except for
fans.

How efficient is that? What's the savings?

Ontario, Canada has made it mandantory for all new home construction. Huge
energy savings in summer and winter.

I've considered waste-water heat recovery, to our water heater inlet,
but it would be a big deal to install. Our incoming water is typically
pretty cold.

 

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 12:34:37 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will
deliver that for two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.

The industry people call it the duck curve. The solar generation really messes with grid stability using anything other than the fast reacting peaker plants, which are all gas ISFAIK.
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/10/10960848/solar-energy-duck-curve

--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 3:28:43 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:55:45 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will deliver that for
two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.

They need to get HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilation) installed in their homes. It
works the same in summer as it does in winter. Completely passive except for
fans.

How efficient is that? What's the savings?

It's not a heating system, it's a ventilation system. It provides fresh air without heating it up or cooling it down as much.

I see the system wikipedia shows includes a ground heat exchanger which are typically not inexpensive to install. In areas where water is plentiful they are more practical when water based rather than installation in the ground.

Ontario, Canada has made it mandantory for all new home construction. Huge
energy savings in summer and winter.

Commercial systems typically have fresh air requirements and so often include such heat exchangers. I haven't seen where single family residential uses any sort of fresh air exchanges. Adding a system like this won't provide any "savings" since the cost is not zero and with no system the cost is zero.

Did I miss something about these systems?

--

Rick C.

-- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 3:28:43 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:55:45 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will deliver that for
two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.

They need to get HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilation) installed in their homes. It
works the same in summer as it does in winter. Completely passive except for
fans.

How efficient is that? What's the savings?

There's heat recovery and energy recovery. Heat recovery only works to conserve house heat during heating season. Hence the Canadian mandate, that's definitely a mainly heating season place, or used to be before climate change. Energy recovery works both ways, conserving heat during heating season, and keeping heat out during cooling season. Both systems are to facilitate fresh air ventilation of the living space in new airtight construction. Last time I checked, the Healthy House Institute, or some such, recommends complete change out of the house air 3x over the course of 24 hours. That requirement translates into a weak little fan in the 10-30 cfm range in most cases, not much.
The efficiency should be pretty good as the heat exchange is this pricey thing full of platinum. You look it up.

Ontario, Canada has made it mandantory for all new home construction. Huge
energy savings in summer and winter.


I've considered waste-water heat recovery, to our water heater inlet,
but it would be a big deal to install. Our incoming water is typically
pretty cold.

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 10:46:12 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

If CO2 reduction is the goal, China is building enough coal plants
every week to crush the savings of that thing many times over.

Oh, China is more flexible than you might think:
<https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/world/asia/china-coal-power-plants-pollution.html>

and international agreement on the issue means it's not just China.
Agreements: something we haven't seen here in recent years, I kinda... miss that.

Reduction of CO2 is NOT the goal; a continuation of traditional climate patterns
in order to preserve biodiversity and keep our fields, flocks, fisheries in
health, is the goal. Reduction of CO2 is one pathway worth exploiting.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 3:28:43 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:55:45 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will deliver that for
two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.

They need to get HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilation) installed in their homes. It
works the same in summer as it does in winter. Completely passive except for
fans.

How efficient is that? What's the savings?

The better question is, say what? HRV AFAIK, is when you want to air
out the house, you bring outside air in, pump inside air out, through
a heat exchanger to reduce the loss. It's still a loss. To save
energy, just don't do it. Never had to do it before, but now that
energy efficient homes are being made ever more air tight, I guess
if you're a farting tree hugger, you gotta do something.

Ontario, Canada has made it mandantory for all new home construction. Huge
energy savings in summer and winter.


I've considered waste-water heat recovery, to our water heater inlet,
but it would be a big deal to install. Our incoming water is typically
pretty cold.

Big deal, cost, maintenance and any savings is small.

 

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 12:34:37 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will
deliver that for two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.


--
Thanks,
- Win

There's a bunch of stuff about using energy storage as a mitigation means for the duck curve:
https://www.asme.org/topics-resources/content/energy-storage-smooths-duck-curve

NREL has some words on it too (over-generalized as usual).

It seems lately that quite a few BIG solar projects are incorporating energy storage side-by-side. If they really have problems, they co-locate a gas fired peaker power plant with the solar.

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:cefb010e-3efd-4b8e-9b5c-8986a995874d@googlegroups.com:

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 4:25:32 PM UTC-4,
bloggs.fre...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 12:34:37 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill
wrote:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will
deliver that for two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.

The industry people call it the duck curve. The solar generation
really messes with grid stability using anything other than the
fast reacting peaker plants, which are all gas ISFAIK.
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/10/10960848/solar-energy-duck-curve

So much for load following nuclear then...

On another surge related topic... The boat fire.

They are saying that it may have been a battery fire that started
it.

I have always not liked the idea that just any asshole can make a
"USB compliant" charger that is not compliant because nobody is
looking any more!

AND the devices' charging circuits are not regulated internally by
design and mandate that they will NOT overcharge a battery. And
maybe they should have thermal sensors as well, and maybe set off an
alarm as the phone is being killed by whatever thermal rection going
on. The loadest alarm the phone makes till it dies.

That captain should go to prison for not ensuring that there was an
active, two man roving patrol at all times at night. The crew might
be at a culpable level too.

 

[Steve Wilson]

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:55:45 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will deliver that for
two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to reduce early AM
peaks and avoid ramping up generators.

They need to get HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilation) installed in their
homes. It works the same in summer as it does in winter. Completely
passive except for fans.

How efficient is that? What's the savings?

Depends on outside temperature and a host of other factors. Can vary from
about 65% to 91%.

Some more info:

How HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilation) Works
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skcoqs1rUdY

HRV, Heat Recovery Ventilator in Air-Tight House
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yZJiUUFzk0

Heat Recovery Efficiency
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-recovery-efficiency-d_201.html

Ontario, Canada has made it mandantory for all new home construction.
Huge energy savings in summer and winter.

I've considered waste-water heat recovery, to our water heater inlet,
but it would be a big deal to install. Our incoming water is typically
pretty cold.

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 5:14:47 PM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:cefb010e-3efd-4b8e-9b5c-8986a995874d@googlegroups.com:

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 4:25:32 PM UTC-4,
bloggs.fre...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 12:34:37 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill
wrote:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will
deliver that for two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.

The industry people call it the duck curve. The solar generation
really messes with grid stability using anything other than the
fast reacting peaker plants, which are all gas ISFAIK.
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/10/10960848/solar-energy-duck-curve

So much for load following nuclear then...


On another surge related topic... The boat fire.

They are saying that it may have been a battery fire that started
it.

I have always not liked the idea that just any asshole can make a
"USB compliant" charger that is not compliant because nobody is
looking any more!

AND the devices' charging circuits are not regulated internally by
design and mandate that they will NOT overcharge a battery. And
maybe they should have thermal sensors as well, and maybe set off an
alarm as the phone is being killed by whatever thermal rection going
on. The loadest alarm the phone makes till it dies.

That captain should go to prison for not ensuring that there was an
active, two man roving patrol at all times at night. The crew might
be at a culpable level too.

You seem to dislike cell phones a lot. Maybe they should have had a smoke detector on the boat?

--

Rick C.

++ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
news:jqknnelte3oecdhggqvfd7cbdoemkl36pv@4ax.com:

If CO2 reduction is the goal, China is building enough coal plants
every week to crush the savings of that thing many times over.

As long as they are buying the turbines from GE, we should not
complain, eh?

 

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 4:47:21 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 4:25:32 PM UTC-4, bloggs.fre...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 12:34:37 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote...

That battery is 1/4 the power of the array, and will
deliver that for two hours. Why bother?

They call it four hours, probably because the demand
goes down in the evening. The huge benefit of this
type of solar farm is providing power during the hot
days, when everyone in LA is running AC full blast.
The extra 130MW saves on DC-AC conversion costs and
provides off-peak power. They also discuss holding
off on using the battery until the next morning, to
reduce early AM peaks and avoid ramping up generators.

The industry people call it the duck curve. The solar generation really messes with grid stability using anything other than the fast reacting peaker plants, which are all gas ISFAIK.
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/10/10960848/solar-energy-duck-curve

So much for load following nuclear then...

The really heavily vested players in Europe, Germany and France in particular, do make their nuclear load follow pretty well. But all the schemes they use, and there are several, end up being wasteful of fuel (nuclear), which they don't seem to care about much because it's one of their least considerable overhead costs. But there is a big environmental concern with disposing of the waste. They don't think it is, but it is.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 4:10:52 PM UTC-4, bloggs.fre...@gmail.com wrote:

The efficiency should be pretty good as the heat exchange is this pricey thing full of platinum. You look it up.

You got me on that one. lol I looked it up and everything. It's not even April.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209