OT: Replacing Drawer Slides

Jim Thompson · Jul 10, 2005

OT:

I have a set of kitchen cabinets populated with your typical junk
level "Blum" type drawer slides/glides/guides, incapable of holding up
to substantial load when extended.

Anyone had experience with replacing these with full-extension
ball-bearing guides? Alignment tricks, etc.?

Thanks!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Winfield Hill · Jul 10, 2005

Jim Thompson wrote...

OT:

I have a set of kitchen cabinets populated with your typical junk
level "Blum" type drawer slides/glides/guides, incapable of holding
up to substantial load when extended.

Anyone had experience with replacing these with full-extension
ball-bearing guides? Alignment tricks, etc.?

Whaddya think this is, the weekend, Sunday or something?

--
Thanks,
- Win

Jim Thompson · Jul 10, 2005

On 10 Jul 2005 12:26:45 -0700, Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote...

OT:

I have a set of kitchen cabinets populated with your typical junk
level "Blum" type drawer slides/glides/guides, incapable of holding
up to substantial load when extended.

Anyone had experience with replacing these with full-extension
ball-bearing guides? Alignment tricks, etc.?

Whaddya think this is, the weekend, Sunday or something?

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Anthony Fremont · Jul 10, 2005

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message

Anyone had experience with replacing these with full-extension
ball-bearing guides? Alignment tricks, etc.?

The alignment trick is to attach the drawer front after you install the
drawer/slides.

Jim Thompson · Jul 10, 2005

On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:29:42 GMT, "Anthony Fremont"
<spam@anywhere.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message

Anyone had experience with replacing these with full-extension
ball-bearing guides? Alignment tricks, etc.?

The alignment trick is to attach the drawer front after you install the
drawer/slides.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joerg · Jul 10, 2005

Hello Jim,

I have a set of kitchen cabinets populated with your typical junk
level "Blum" type drawer slides/glides/guides, incapable of holding up
to substantial load when extended.

Been there. Honey complained until I fixed them.

Anyone had experience with replacing these with full-extension
ball-bearing guides? Alignment tricks, etc.?

I went to Home Depot and got the strongest ball bearing guides that
would fit. There was 1/2 inch space on either side. IIRC the guides are
rated at 100 pounds when fully extended (drawer completely out of
cabinet frame).

The trick is in very precise measurements since you cannot really align
much after they are mounted. Also, I threw away the screws that came
with them and got some heavy duty short ones for the drawer sides and
"Simpson Strong Ties" for the cabinet sides. Then I made large shims
from steel to avoid any bowing. Cabinets aren't always really square and
ball bearing guides do not like any veering. These shims must support at
least down to the lower edge of the rail or it will eventually bend.

Those two drawers are about 4-5 ft wide, a foot high and extend 3-4 ft.
Full of pots, cast iron pans and what not. All the heavy stuff. You can
touch them with one finger and they slowly glide back with only as much
as a faint hiss. Before it had required major wrestling and created an
awful screech.

Considering that your house is almost new compared to ours (1970) it's
surprising the guides already gave up. We still have most of the
original ones in place. A little lube spritz once a year keeps them going.

Also, carefully look at the drawer itself. Sometimes the sides start to
come off a bit. I had reinforced a few with wood pieces or gusset angles
on the insides.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jim Thompson · Jul 10, 2005

On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:53:11 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Jim,

I have a set of kitchen cabinets populated with your typical junk
level "Blum" type drawer slides/glides/guides, incapable of holding up
to substantial load when extended.

Been there. Honey complained until I fixed them.

Anyone had experience with replacing these with full-extension
ball-bearing guides? Alignment tricks, etc.?

I went to Home Depot and got the strongest ball bearing guides that
would fit. There was 1/2 inch space on either side. IIRC the guides are
rated at 100 pounds when fully extended (drawer completely out of
cabinet frame).

The trick is in very precise measurements since you cannot really align
much after they are mounted.

That's what it looked like to me.

Also, I threw away the screws that came
with them and got some heavy duty short ones for the drawer sides and
"Simpson Strong Ties" for the cabinet sides.

That's an excellent idea. I'm fond of Simpson's products.

Then I made large shims
from steel to avoid any bowing.

Just got back from the hardware store... bought a box of 100 #12x1"
and a box of fender washers ;-)

Cabinets aren't always really square and
ball bearing guides do not like any veering. These shims must support at
least down to the lower edge of the rail or it will eventually bend.

Those two drawers are about 4-5 ft wide, a foot high and extend 3-4 ft.
Full of pots, cast iron pans and what not. All the heavy stuff.

The wife is an All-Clad nut... really heavy stuff.

You can
touch them with one finger and they slowly glide back with only as much
as a faint hiss. Before it had required major wrestling and created an
awful screech.

Considering that your house is almost new compared to ours (1970) it's
surprising the guides already gave up.

Try extending one, then drop a Phoenix phone book into it ;-)

We still have most of the
original ones in place. A little lube spritz once a year keeps them going.

Also, carefully look at the drawer itself. Sometimes the sides start to
come off a bit. I had reinforced a few with wood pieces or gusset angles
on the insides.

Seems like I'm constantly doing that sort of thing. The fixed shelves
are _stapled_ in. I've been gradually adding 1x3 oak supports,
"screwed 'n' glued" ;-)

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John Fields · Jul 10, 2005

On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:36:02 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

OT:

I have a set of kitchen cabinets populated with your typical junk
level "Blum" type drawer slides/glides/guides, incapable of holding up
to substantial load when extended.

Anyone had experience with replacing these with full-extension
ball-bearing guides? Alignment tricks, etc.?

---
Unless you've got the tools and the aptitude to do it right, it might
be more time and cost-effective to contract it out, especially since
you're retrofitting. Where we live now we have ball-bearing slides in
the kitchen and in all of the bathrooms, and I've never installed them
anywhere but in electronic equipment racks, so I can't help you out
there, but in our last two houses we had retrofit central vacuum
systems installed, and at $70 an outlet (inlet, actually) I would
have had to have been crazy to have tried to do it myself.

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

Joerg · Jul 10, 2005

Hello Jim,

Seems like I'm constantly doing that sort of thing. The fixed shelves
are _stapled_ in. I've been gradually adding 1x3 oak supports,
"screwed 'n' glued" ;-)

I have seen some new 1/2 million Dollar homes where they stapled lots of
stuff. Even the roof shingles were stapled on. The cabinets looked posh
but when I opened one it was all particle board inside, even in the
kitchen. There must be a huge profit margin in those houses.

Take your time to measure. You can't redo a rail because there is no way
to reposition a screw by 1/8" or so. It has to be right the first time.
Reminds me of chip design...

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg · Jul 10, 2005

Hello John,

Unless you've got the tools and the aptitude to do it right, it might
be more time and cost-effective to contract it out, especially since
you're retrofitting. ...

But you really have to find someone you can fully trust. A messed up
slide mount can be almost irrecoverable in tight spots.

When I looked underneath the kitchen floor before tiling I found that
the original professional installers had tiled from the mud bed right
onto a wood beam. At a stair step no less. I guess they assumed wood and
concrete have the same flexibility. Needless to say that means cracks.
They didn't use a membrane anywhere (this is California where stuff
moves and shakes at times) and movement joints must also have been
foreign to them. So I laid the new tiles myself even though I hate that
kind of chore. But now we have nice and tough porcelain tile, a membrane
throughout, much more precise angle cuts and movement joints by the
book. And the grout lines are 1/8" everywhere, not something somewhere
between 1/4" and 1/2".

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

John Fields · Jul 10, 2005

On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:48:05 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello John,

Unless you've got the tools and the aptitude to do it right, it might
be more time and cost-effective to contract it out, especially since
you're retrofitting. ...

But you really have to find someone you can fully trust. A messed up
slide mount can be almost irrecoverable in tight spots.

---
I agree, and that trust is basically that if the contractor you hire
messes up, the errors of their hirelings will be fixed without having
to take them to court. We've had some real assholes around here, from
a landscape architecht who charged us to look at his books after we
decided not to use him and his crew, to a tile monkey contractor who
sent us a bunch of drunks who didn't have a clue about what 45° meant.

Leeches.
---

When I looked underneath the kitchen floor before tiling I found that
the original professional installers had tiled from the mud bed right
onto a wood beam. At a stair step no less. I guess they assumed wood and
concrete have the same flexibility.

---
Are you serious? They had no clue and, even if they did they wouldn't
care. Expedience seems to be the watchword today. If it lasts from
one owner to the next, then that's all that matters.
---

They didn't use a membrane anywhere (this is California where stuff
moves and shakes at times) and movement joints must also have been
foreign to them. So I laid the new tiles myself even though I hate that
kind of chore. But now we have nice and tough porcelain tile, a membrane
throughout, much more precise angle cuts and movement joints by the
book. And the grout lines are 1/8" everywhere, not something somewhere
between 1/4" and 1/2".

---
Good on you!

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

Joerg · Jul 10, 2005

Hello John,

Friends hired a landscaping contractor after a good reference check.
Turns out the guy was or at least had become a drug addict. They lost a
lot of money.

But I have seen worse, things such as a car repair shop forgetting to
fasten the screws to the steering column gear. Just imagine approaching
a curve at 50mph or so, turning the wheel and nothing happens.

Are you serious? They had no clue and, even if they did they wouldn't
care. Expedience seems to be the watchword today. If it lasts from
one owner to the next, then that's all that matters.

Unfortunately there are also some consultants who do that. They whip up
a haphazard design, collect and then run. To a degree that spoils the
broth for all of us serious guys.

Good on you!

My wife did the ultimate test just as I had finished tiling the kitchen.
A full one-liter San Pellegrino glass bottle crashed from the counter
onto the tile floor, hard edge first. We both froze for a second but
luckily there isn't a scratch. But I was worse, having dropped my glass
of ice tea onto the floor before I had grouted. Oh man, was I angry at
myself.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Paul Hovnanian P.E. · Jul 11, 2005

Joerg wrote:

Hello Jim,

Seems like I'm constantly doing that sort of thing. The fixed shelves
are _stapled_ in. I've been gradually adding 1x3 oak supports,
"screwed 'n' glued" ;-)

I have seen some new 1/2 million Dollar homes where they stapled lots of
stuff. Even the roof shingles were stapled on. The cabinets looked posh
but when I opened one it was all particle board inside, even in the
kitchen. There must be a huge profit margin in those houses.

Take your time to measure. You can't redo a rail because there is no way
to reposition a screw by 1/8" or so. It has to be right the first time.
Reminds me of chip design...

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Hmm. I have a set of these. A couple of the slide to cabinet frame screw
holes are slotted. The trick is to measure as carefully as possible, but
only install screws through the slotted holes. Then, when the drawers
are installed, measure the error and make fine adjustments. Once the
drawer alignment is satisfactory, put screws in the remaining (round)
holes.

I used the 1/2" thick rails in an installation with only 1/4" clearance
on either side of the drawer by routing slots into the drawers to recess
the rails. The drawers are solid pine, not particle board.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto

aul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Think honk if you're a telepath.

Paul Hovnanian P.E. · Jul 11, 2005

Joerg wrote:

[snip]

Unfortunately there are also some consultants who do that. They whip up
a haphazard design, collect and then run. To a degree that spoils the
broth for all of us serious guys.

Hire older consultants. More experience, plus they can't run as fast.

;-)

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto

aul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Big business never pays a nickel in taxes, according to Ralph Nader, who
represents a big consumer organization that never pays a nickel in
taxes.
-- Dave Barry

ehsjr · Jul 11, 2005

Jim Thompson wrote:

OT:

I have a set of kitchen cabinets populated with your typical junk
level "Blum" type drawer slides/glides/guides, incapable of holding up
to substantial load when extended.

Anyone had experience with replacing these with full-extension
ball-bearing guides? Alignment tricks, etc.?

Thanks!

...Jim Thompson

The trick is to support the drawer at *exactly* the height
that it will be when installed, and *level*, both left to
right and front to back.

First, you install the slides in the opening, *level*. (Make
sure you install them far enough into the opening so that
the drawer can fully close.) Then extend the slides. Place
the drawer on your support, and screw the slides to it. Start
at the middle hole. When you have one screw in the middle hole
of each slide, move the drawer, still resting on your support,
most of the way into the opening and put a screw in on each
side to hold the slide to the drawer nearest the front. Now
pull the drawer to the front, remove the support, and attach
the remaining screws.

Ed

Joerg · Jul 11, 2005

Hello Paul,

Hmm. I have a set of these. A couple of the slide to cabinet frame screw
holes are slotted. The trick is to measure as carefully as possible, but
only install screws through the slotted holes. Then, when the drawers
are installed, measure the error and make fine adjustments. Once the
drawer alignment is satisfactory, put screws in the remaining (round)
holes.

That works, but only for depth alignment. The heavy duty ball bearing
guides that I bought do not have vertical slots. Probably because they
wouldn't hold when the drawer is loaded and instead slowly slip down.
Thing is, if the rails aren't 100% level and tracking each other the
drawer is going to be "sticky". Same if the horizontal distance meanders
because of wrong shims. There just is no tolerance.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jim Thompson · Jul 11, 2005

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:46:15 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Paul,

Hmm. I have a set of these. A couple of the slide to cabinet frame screw
holes are slotted. The trick is to measure as carefully as possible, but
only install screws through the slotted holes. Then, when the drawers
are installed, measure the error and make fine adjustments. Once the
drawer alignment is satisfactory, put screws in the remaining (round)
holes.

That works, but only for depth alignment. The heavy duty ball bearing
guides that I bought do not have vertical slots. Probably because they
wouldn't hold when the drawer is loaded and instead slowly slip down.
Thing is, if the rails aren't 100% level and tracking each other the
drawer is going to be "sticky". Same if the horizontal distance meanders
because of wrong shims. There just is no tolerance.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

I'm toying with the idea of securing them pretty much the way the Blum
slides are done... attach at drawer opening, but allow some horizontal
"float" in the back... just limit vertical movement.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joerg · Jul 11, 2005

Hello Jim,

I'm toying with the idea of securing them pretty much the way the Blum
slides are done... attach at drawer opening, but allow some horizontal
"float" in the back... just limit vertical movement.

That seems like a good idea. Just don't provide too much float or the
front panel of the drawer might be flush with the front frame on one
side but not on the other. Or worse it might rattle when touching. Then
you would hear from Mrs.Complain (when it ain't done right). I hate
repeat business of the kind "Honey, it's still dripping under the sink".

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jim Thompson · Jul 11, 2005

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:51:51 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Jim,

I'm toying with the idea of securing them pretty much the way the Blum
slides are done... attach at drawer opening, but allow some horizontal
"float" in the back... just limit vertical movement.

That seems like a good idea. Just don't provide too much float or the
front panel of the drawer might be flush with the front frame on one
side but not on the other. Or worse it might rattle when touching. Then
you would hear from Mrs.Complain (when it ain't done right). I hate
repeat business of the kind "Honey, it's still dripping under the sink".

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joerg · Jul 11, 2005

Hello Jim,

Or worse. "Why is the carpet is wet?" ;-)

That's exactly what happened a couple of years ago. We had barbeque with
visitors so everyone was outside. Then someone went inside but came back
in a hurry. "The carpet is all wet". A toilet tank had cracked for no
particular reason, no earthquake, nothing. Of course, these things do
not feature an excessive runtime shut-off.

Just imagine this happening while you are on vacation.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

OT: Replacing Drawer Slides

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