OT: 'Photon Farming' in California

[Cursitor Doom]

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh




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[John Larkin]

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 12:41:00 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:15:00 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 03/08/19 16:44, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

If you have hills and water, push the water uphill.

Well, we do have some hills sixty miles away from the central valley.
I doubt that mass energy storage is economical; certainly batteries
aren't.

Solar makes little sense; natural gas fracking is in financial trouble
in the US because it has been so successful that there's a glut of
cheap gas. If we have to build NG plants to power us up when the sun
don't shine, may as well run them 24/7.

Except the cost of solar is currently competitive and still dropping. Why pay more for energy from a harmful source? Do you just like to toss money out the window?

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 1:44:37 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

Push it into batteries or pumped storage. You get about 85% of the energy back.

Australia is thinking about using it to generate liquid hydrogen which we'd then ship off to Korea or Japan. You only get about a quarter of the energy out at the destination, but the energy density is a whole lot better than batteries can offer.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 03/08/19 16:44, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

If you have hills and water, push the water uphill.

Here we don't have enough hills and while we have plenty
of water, it flows downhill too fast
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-49199505
Shades of Oroville

 

[amdx]

On 8/3/2019 10:44 AM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?


Pump water!

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:15:00 +0100, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 03/08/19 16:44, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

If you have hills and water, push the water uphill.

Well, we do have some hills sixty miles away from the central valley.
I doubt that mass energy storage is economical; certainly batteries
aren't.

Solar makes little sense; natural gas fracking is in financial trouble
in the US because it has been so successful that there's a glut of
cheap gas. If we have to build NG plants to power us up when the sun
don't shine, may as well run them 24/7.

Here we don't have enough hills and while we have plenty
of water, it flows downhill too fast
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-49199505
Shades of Oroville

Wow, that does look familiar. Water is evil stuff.

About time to re-read The Nine Tailors.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:44:37 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

Use it.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Martin Brown]

On 03/08/2019 17:42, amdx wrote:

On 8/3/2019 10:44 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

 Pump water!

Doesn't it also coincide with peak aircon loading in the USA?

Pumped storage is very effective for storing a chunk of energy if you
have a pair of suitable lakes at very different heights and the water to
go in them. The latter possibly being in short supply in California.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 03/08/19 17:40, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:15:00 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 03/08/19 16:44, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

If you have hills and water, push the water uphill.

Well, we do have some hills sixty miles away from the central valley.
I doubt that mass energy storage is economical; certainly batteries
aren't.

Pumped storage certainly is econmomic(al). The problem in
the UK is that there is far too little capacity to see us
through lulls in wind production.

The energy we would require to see us through such lulls
is 1200GWh.

Our current pumped storage capacity is 30GWh, and some
of that is earmarked for "black starts".

We could plausibly get up to 400GWh, but 1200GWh seems
difficult.

If /all/ our vehicles were electric and we didn't have
to worry about keeping them topped up for use as
/vehicles/, then that would be sufficient.

Source: http://withouthotair.com/download.html
pages 189-203, or chapter 26 at http://withouthotair.com/
Note the plaudits from /everybody/ from Big Energy to
Big Greens and Big Politicians.

Solar makes little sense; natural gas fracking is in financial trouble
in the US because it has been so successful that there's a glut of
cheap gas. If we have to build NG plants to power us up when the sun
don't shine, may as well run them 24/7.


Here we don't have enough hills and while we have plenty
of water, it flows downhill too fast
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-49199505
Shades of Oroville

Wow, that does look familiar. Water is evil stuff.

Yup, it kills many many people in many interesting ways.


> About time to re-read The Nine Tailors.

Don't like DL Sayers; she was to fawningly snobbish
for my tastes. Peter Wimsey succeeded where the local
plod failed because he had the right breeding. Ugh.

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sat, 03 Aug 2019 08:44:29 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on good
days?

Electrical energy storage will be the next *big* thing to get into,
rather like the quantum leap in battery technology that one day *will* be
made.



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 1:30:37 PM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

On 03/08/2019 17:42, amdx wrote:
On 8/3/2019 10:44 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

 Pump water!

Doesn't it also coincide with peak aircon loading in the USA?

Pumped storage is very effective for storing a chunk of energy if you
have a pair of suitable lakes at very different heights and the water to
go in them. The latter possibly being in short supply in California.

Summer peak usage is late afternoon when people are returning home as well as retail and businesses are still open... same as UK and most places. I posted links to curves showing this a while back.

Solar peaks literally at midday.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Sat, 03 Aug 2019 08:44:29 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

1 GWp should be good for charging 100 000 EVs.

Alternatively, if you have a great demand for fresh water, run a
desalination plant a few hours each day.

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 12:42:09 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:

On 8/3/2019 10:44 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?


Pump water!

I saw a web page showing about 94% of US energy storage is hydro, about 24 GW. Of the other 6%, thermal and battery are about 700 MW each.

Someone here posted a link once to a wireless charging company in the EU that was also into battery storage. Rather than use expensive Li-ion cells, they were using very low cost second hand batteries. Seems there are many applications where they are swapped out periodically while still functioning. I seem to recall they would get another 4 years out of them in this app.. The cost is something just above scrap value. I expect there are a lot of usable batteries like this, but don't know if it is potentially GW.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 11:32:27 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 1:30:37 PM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/08/2019 17:42, amdx wrote:
On 8/3/2019 10:44 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

 Pump water!

Doesn't it also coincide with peak aircon loading in the USA?

Pumped storage is very effective for storing a chunk of energy if you
have a pair of suitable lakes at very different heights and the water to
go in them. The latter possibly being in short supply in California.

Summer peak usage is late afternoon when people are returning home as well as retail and businesses are still open... same as UK and most places. I posted links to curves showing this a while back.

Solar peaks literally at midday.

Then charge EVs during midday.

Of course this require charging infrastructure in places were cars are
parked during midday, such as on company parking lots. This is not
hard to organize.

 

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 11:52:32 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 12:42:09 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 8/3/2019 10:44 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?


Pump water!

I saw a web page showing about 94% of US energy storage is hydro, about 24 GW. Of the other 6%, thermal and battery are about 700 MW each.

So they call ordinary hydro 'energy storage' ;-).

In practice this is just a dam that can store river water for at least
one day. No hydro is used during the day, when solar is available and
the water is driven once through the turbines during the night. No
low efficiency pumping back involved.

It should be noted that the day consumption is larger than night
consumption, so that less water needs to be stored in the dam.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 04/08/19 00:24, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 11:32:27 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 1:30:37 PM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/08/2019 17:42, amdx wrote:
On 8/3/2019 10:44 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

 Pump water!

Doesn't it also coincide with peak aircon loading in the USA?

Pumped storage is very effective for storing a chunk of energy if you
have a pair of suitable lakes at very different heights and the water to
go in them. The latter possibly being in short supply in California.

Summer peak usage is late afternoon when people are returning home as well as retail and businesses are still open... same as UK and most places. I posted links to curves showing this a while back.

Solar peaks literally at midday.

What is this "sun" of which you speak?

Then charge EVs during midday.

Of course this require charging infrastructure in places were cars are
parked during midday, such as on company parking lots. This is not
hard to organize.

Yes, it is...

As usual, you are basing your statements on what is
familiar to you. And it just ain't as easy as you think.

The city where I live deliberately restricts the number of
car parking spaces at work to *much* less than the number of
employees, so as to encourage use of public transport. I
believe other cities have similar policies.

Nearly a *third* of car-owners in the UK have no off-street
parking, as they live in a flat or a terraced house. That
makes it effectively impossible to charge an EV at home.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 2:41:00 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:15:00 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 03/08/19 16:44, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

If you have hills and water, push the water uphill.

Well, we do have some hills sixty miles away from the central valley.
I doubt that mass energy storage is economical; certainly batteries
aren't.

Odd that batteries are economical in South Australia

https://reneweconomy.com.au/how-the-tesla-big-battery-kept-the-lights-on-in-south-australia-20393/

but not in California. It seems likely that John Larkin doesn't know what he is talking about - most likely he's been deluded by some anti-renewables propaganda.

Solar makes little sense; natural gas fracking is in financial trouble
in the US because it has been so successful that there's a glut of
cheap gas. If we have to build NG plants to power us up when the sun
don't shine, may as well run them 24/7.

Not all that logical. The sun is going to keep shining for a few billion years yet, and there's only a finite amount of natural gas to be extracted.

<snip>

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 8:04:00 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 04/08/19 00:24, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 11:32:27 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 1:30:37 PM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/08/2019 17:42, amdx wrote:
On 8/3/2019 10:44 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?

 Pump water!

Doesn't it also coincide with peak aircon loading in the USA?

Pumped storage is very effective for storing a chunk of energy if you
have a pair of suitable lakes at very different heights and the water to
go in them. The latter possibly being in short supply in California.

Summer peak usage is late afternoon when people are returning home as well as retail and businesses are still open... same as UK and most places. I posted links to curves showing this a while back.

Solar peaks literally at midday.

What is this "sun" of which you speak?


Then charge EVs during midday.

Of course this require charging infrastructure in places were cars are
parked during midday, such as on company parking lots. This is not
hard to organize.

Yes, it is...

As usual, you are basing your statements on what is
familiar to you. And it just ain't as easy as you think.

The city where I live deliberately restricts the number of
car parking spaces at work to *much* less than the number of
employees, so as to encourage use of public transport. I
believe other cities have similar policies.

Nearly a *third* of car-owners in the UK have no off-street
parking, as they live in a flat or a terraced house. That
makes it effectively impossible to charge an EV at home.

Yes, I think at this point it is a given that the UK will not be joining the rest of the world in reducing carbon emissions any time soon. So just assume we are not talking about the UK when we mention these sorts of thing.

BTW, I'm sure there are businesses somewhere in the UK that aren't squeezed by the local government this way and have adequate parking. Even then it doesn't matter really. You didn't say they have no parking. You said they didn't have enough for everyone. So that still means there can be charging at work. The thing being discussed is using the peak solar generation. All of it doesn't need to power every car. The idea is to take the peak load to use for something that can be scheduled to suit the supply.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 7:35:14 PM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 11:52:32 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 12:42:09 PM UTC-4, amdx wrote:
On 8/3/2019 10:44 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 14:40:47 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Worth a try!

https://tinyurl.com/y67eltrh

What will we do with gigawatts of power that peaks mid-day, only on
good days?


Pump water!

I saw a web page showing about 94% of US energy storage is hydro, about 24 GW. Of the other 6%, thermal and battery are about 700 MW each.

So they call ordinary hydro 'energy storage' ;-).

In practice this is just a dam that can store river water for at least
one day. No hydro is used during the day, when solar is available and
the water is driven once through the turbines during the night. No
low efficiency pumping back involved.

It should be noted that the day consumption is larger than night
consumption, so that less water needs to be stored in the dam.

They use both pumped hydro. Why would you think it's not?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209