OT:Mystery spare items

N

N_Cook

Guest
Googling getting no where. The context may be old aircraft cockpit or
for training of morse code, reportedly.
A dovetail-cornered purpose made wooden boxed set of spare, probably
keycaps , not-transparent , black bakelite with white pantograph
inscribed and whited for visibility. Each cap is individually inscribed
with numbers like 5C/1214 and the boxed set is labelled REF. No 5C/2210
(the o of No is lower case but raised with a bar under American military
abbreviation?).
Each letter keycap is oriented differently and with a unique set of
flutes for very specific registration.
But the real mystery is the box has 24 recesses for 24 keycaps , A to Z,
but with E and T missing, so 24 not 26 letter alphabet.
 
N_Cook wrote:

REF. No
(the o of No is lower case but raised with a bar under American military
abbreviation?).
Click to expand...

The numero symbol № is pretty standard (maybe a little old-hat)

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numero_sign>
 
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 11:03:51 +0100, N_Cook wrote:

Googling getting no where. The context may be old aircraft cockpit or
for training of morse code, reportedly.
A dovetail-cornered purpose made wooden boxed set of spare, probably
keycaps , not-transparent , black bakelite with white pantograph
inscribed and whited for visibility. Each cap is individually inscribed
with numbers like 5C/1214 and the boxed set is labelled REF. No 5C/2210
(the o of No is lower case but raised with a bar under American military
abbreviation?).
Each letter keycap is oriented differently and with a unique set of
flutes for very specific registration.
But the real mystery is the box has 24 recesses for 24 keycaps , A to Z,
but with E and T missing, so 24 not 26 letter alphabet.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I'm wondering if this is somehow related to old crypto gear?

Jon
 
On 23/07/2018 19:19, Jon Elson wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 11:03:51 +0100, N_Cook wrote:

Googling getting no where. The context may be old aircraft cockpit or
for training of morse code, reportedly.
A dovetail-cornered purpose made wooden boxed set of spare, probably
keycaps , not-transparent , black bakelite with white pantograph
inscribed and whited for visibility. Each cap is individually inscribed
with numbers like 5C/1214 and the boxed set is labelled REF. No 5C/2210
(the o of No is lower case but raised with a bar under American military
abbreviation?).
Each letter keycap is oriented differently and with a unique set of
flutes for very specific registration.
But the real mystery is the box has 24 recesses for 24 keycaps , A to Z,
but with E and T missing, so 24 not 26 letter alphabet.

Hmm, I'm wondering if this is somehow related to old crypto gear?

Jon
Click to expand...

That crosssed my mind because I went to a talk by Simon Scharma on the
Enigma machine and I run science talks, where we had an owner and expert
on these things, transcript of that talk here
http://www.diverse.4mg.com/scicaf2012b.htm
Somewhere along the way there was mention about a lack of letter Q or
something like that in the German alphabet and so the keyboard
had no Q or J or whatever the letter was.
Also , in passing ,a genuine German Enigma machine , the illumination
bulbs are flattened rather than spherical , because depite the
reputution of German design being so great , they cocked up and the lid
would not close with the original intended bulbs, without breaking them.
 
On 23/07/18 20:27, N_Cook wrote:
On 23/07/2018 19:19, Jon Elson wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 11:03:51 +0100, N_Cook wrote:

Googling getting no where. The context may be old aircraft cockpit or
for training of morse code, reportedly.
A dovetail-cornered purpose made wooden boxed set of spare, probably
keycaps , not-transparent , black bakelite with white pantograph
inscribed and whited for visibility. Each cap is individually inscribed
with numbers like 5C/1214 and the boxed set is labelled REF. No 5C/2210
(the o of No is lower case but raised with a bar under American military
abbreviation?).
Each letter keycap is oriented differently and with a unique set of
flutes for very specific registration.
But the real mystery is the box has 24 recesses for 24 keycaps , A to Z,
but with E and T missing, so 24 not 26 letter alphabet.

Hmm, I'm wondering if this is somehow related to old crypto gear?

Jon


That crosssed my mind because I went to a talk by Simon Scharma on the
Enigma machine and I run science talks, where we had an owner and expert
on these things, transcript of that talk here
http://www.diverse.4mg.com/scicaf2012b.htm
Somewhere along the way there was mention about a lack of letter Q or
something like that in the German alphabet and so the keyboard
had no Q or J or whatever the letter was.
Also , in passing ,a genuine German Enigma machine , the illumination
bulbs are flattened rather than spherical , because depite the
reputution of German design being so great , they cocked up and the lid
would not close with the original intended bulbs, without breaking them.
Click to expand...

A late reply, but I had to ask someone who had worked on repairing an
Enigma machine about this. I am afraid your idea that the design was
fault is not correct. The real explanation can be found here
<http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/enigma/lamps.htm>

--

Jeff
 
On 25/07/2018 21:48, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 23/07/18 20:27, N_Cook wrote:
On 23/07/2018 19:19, Jon Elson wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 11:03:51 +0100, N_Cook wrote:

Googling getting no where. The context may be old aircraft cockpit or
for training of morse code, reportedly.
A dovetail-cornered purpose made wooden boxed set of spare, probably
keycaps , not-transparent , black bakelite with white pantograph
inscribed and whited for visibility. Each cap is individually inscribed
with numbers like 5C/1214 and the boxed set is labelled REF. No 5C/2210
(the o of No is lower case but raised with a bar under American
military
abbreviation?).
Each letter keycap is oriented differently and with a unique set of
flutes for very specific registration.
But the real mystery is the box has 24 recesses for 24 keycaps , A
to Z,
but with E and T missing, so 24 not 26 letter alphabet.

Hmm, I'm wondering if this is somehow related to old crypto gear?

Jon


That crosssed my mind because I went to a talk by Simon Scharma on the
Enigma machine and I run science talks, where we had an owner and expert
on these things, transcript of that talk here
http://www.diverse.4mg.com/scicaf2012b.htm
Somewhere along the way there was mention about a lack of letter Q or
something like that in the German alphabet and so the keyboard
had no Q or J or whatever the letter was.
Also , in passing ,a genuine German Enigma machine , the illumination
bulbs are flattened rather than spherical , because depite the
reputution of German design being so great , they cocked up and the lid
would not close with the original intended bulbs, without breaking them.

A late reply, but I had to ask someone who had worked on repairing an
Enigma machine about this. I am afraid your idea that the design was
fault is not correct. The real explanation can be found here
http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/enigma/lamps.htm
Click to expand...

"flattened lamps that are required for the Enigma." If they had allowed
more space, to recess the bulb holder deeper, then no requirement for
flattened bulbs. But discoloured windows rather than broken bulbs would
have been the result of the design error, it seems.
As E and T are single dits or dahs, there is presumably a Morse
connection with this 24 character alphabet, but no further foreward as
to why or what for.
 
On 26/07/18 08:30, N_Cook wrote:
On 25/07/2018 21:48, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 23/07/18 20:27, N_Cook wrote:
On 23/07/2018 19:19, Jon Elson wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 11:03:51 +0100, N_Cook wrote:

Googling getting no where. The context may be old aircraft cockpit or
for training of morse code, reportedly.
A dovetail-cornered purpose made wooden boxed set of spare, probably
keycaps , not-transparent , black bakelite with white pantograph
inscribed and whited for visibility. Each cap is individually inscribed
with numbers like 5C/1214 and the boxed set is labelled REF. No 5C/2210
(the o of No is lower case but raised with a bar under American
military
abbreviation?).
Each letter keycap is oriented differently and with a unique set of
flutes for very specific registration.
But the real mystery is the box has 24 recesses for 24 keycaps , A
to Z,
but with E and T missing, so 24 not 26 letter alphabet.

Hmm, I'm wondering if this is somehow related to old crypto gear?

Jon


That crosssed my mind because I went to a talk by Simon Scharma on the
Enigma machine and I run science talks, where we had an owner and expert
on these things, transcript of that talk here
http://www.diverse.4mg.com/scicaf2012b.htm
Somewhere along the way there was mention about a lack of letter Q or
something like that in the German alphabet and so the keyboard
had no Q or J or whatever the letter was.
Also , in passing ,a genuine German Enigma machine , the illumination
bulbs are flattened rather than spherical , because depite the
reputution of German design being so great , they cocked up and the lid
would not close with the original intended bulbs, without breaking them.

A late reply, but I had to ask someone who had worked on repairing an
Enigma machine about this. I am afraid your idea that the design was
fault is not correct. The real explanation can be found here
http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/enigma/lamps.htm


"flattened lamps that are required for the Enigma." If they had allowed
more space, to recess the bulb holder deeper, then no requirement for
flattened bulbs. But discoloured windows rather than broken bulbs would
have been the result of the design error, it seems.
As E and T are single dits or dahs, there is presumably a Morse
connection with this 24 character alphabet, but no further foreward as
to why or what for.
Click to expand...

Well, the article does hedge its bets a bit. This is the start of the
first paragraph:
"An Enigma machine has small - rather unusual - lamps on its lamp panel."

And this the start of the second:
"Lamps like these were rather common before and during WWII"

So are they "rather unusual" or "rather common"?!

Can't help you with the E and T issue, but you might be right about the
Morse connection. It might be worth looking through the "Popular cipher
machines" at <http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/index.htm> to see if
any of the keyboards match.

--

Jeff
 
I find the fluting business equally intriguing,
perhaps a bit like military connectors MIL-DTL-38999 ?
series . Bakelite , but perhaps similar reasoning,
that only certain patterns of fluting will mate male and female and
correct indexing. These key "caps" must have fitted into some sort of
matrix of "coded" patterned recesses, rather than projecting upwards on
levers like a typewriter/teleprinter.
 
Can't help you with the E and T issue, but you might be right about the
Morse connection. It might be worth looking through the "Popular cipher
machines" at <http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/index.htm> to see if
any of the keyboards match.
Click to expand...

I had a good virtual rummage there, and nothing like them, I might take
some pics and email them.
Sometime I might try decoding the circumferential fluting, and the
individual numbering of each letter, don't even know how many "bits" at
this stage. There are also some "blank" keycaps, same overall form but
no disc and so no letter .
These don't look as though they,ve burst off as it seems all in one
moulding, but individual number markings, and same coded? flutings
 
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 3:27:18 PM UTC-4, N_Cook wrote:
On 23/07/2018 19:19, Jon Elson wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 11:03:51 +0100, N_Cook wrote:

Googling getting no where. The context may be old aircraft cockpit or
for training of morse code, reportedly.
A dovetail-cornered purpose made wooden boxed set of spare, probably
keycaps , not-transparent , black bakelite with white pantograph
inscribed and whited for visibility. Each cap is individually inscribed
with numbers like 5C/1214 and the boxed set is labelled REF. No 5C/2210
(the o of No is lower case but raised with a bar under American military
abbreviation?).
Each letter keycap is oriented differently and with a unique set of
flutes for very specific registration.
But the real mystery is the box has 24 recesses for 24 keycaps , A to Z,
but with E and T missing, so 24 not 26 letter alphabet.

Hmm, I'm wondering if this is somehow related to old crypto gear?

Jon


That crosssed my mind because I went to a talk by Simon Scharma on the
Enigma machine and I run science talks, where we had an owner and expert
on these things, transcript of that talk here
http://www.diverse.4mg.com/scicaf2012b.htm
Somewhere along the way there was mention about a lack of letter Q or
something like that in the German alphabet and so the keyboard
had no Q or J or whatever the letter was.
Click to expand...

Cool. I wonder what they'd have done if the following german words appeared: 'Qualle' (Eng. 'jellyfish'): /kvulluh/,
'bequem' (Eng. 'comfortable'): /bukvame/, 'Qualität' (Eng. 'quality'): /kvullitate/ or Quelle (Eng. 'source, 'wellspring'): /kvelluh/... as in Urquelle beer. Ever had any before?
 
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