OT: Infra-red camera capabilities?

[N_Cook]

For academic reasons it would be useful to read some hidden script on a
wall that has been papered over with thick and profiled Anaglypta type
wallpaper, ie thicker than ceiling paper or standard wall paper. The
script is supposed to be large lettering of about 1 inch in height and
probably stencilled black paint, applied to the plaster of a wall, since
covered over. Permission to steam off this section of paper is unlikely
to be given but non-intrusive exploration would be allowed.
Assuming a professional IR camera can be borrowed , ie not webcam with
IR filter removed. If sections of the wall were heated for a few
(variable by experiment) seconds with a radiant heat lamp , would it be
possible to resolve a difference between black paint and background
plaster on a IR camera screen, all lying under wallpaper, or any other ideas

 

[mike]

On 12/28/2013 10:19 AM, N_Cook wrote:

For academic reasons it would be useful to read some hidden script on a
wall that has been papered over with thick and profiled Anaglypta type
wallpaper, ie thicker than ceiling paper or standard wall paper. The
script is supposed to be large lettering of about 1 inch in height and
probably stencilled black paint, applied to the plaster of a wall, since
covered over. Permission to steam off this section of paper is unlikely
to be given but non-intrusive exploration would be allowed.
Assuming a professional IR camera can be borrowed , ie not webcam with
IR filter removed. If sections of the wall were heated for a few
(variable by experiment) seconds with a radiant heat lamp , would it be
possible to resolve a difference between black paint and background
plaster on a IR camera screen, all lying under wallpaper, or any other
ideas

I'd call up the applications guys at FLIR.
If there's any publicity involved, maybe the marketing guys would
provide the equipment.

 

[pedro]

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 14:21:01 -0800, mike <ham789@netzero.net> wrote:

I'd call up the applications guys at FLIR.
If there's any publicity involved, maybe the marketing guys would
provide the equipment.

+1

 

[Wild_Bill]

I wonder how FLIR might work, since the message is buried under wallpaper
and maybe paste and/or other materials.

I realize that black objects absorb radiant heat more readily, although the
black paint is embedded and likely to be a very thin segment of the overall
materials making up the wall.
I think the message would be extremely difficult to read unless the black
paint had some special characteristic such a radioactivity, etc.

The Agema thermal camera I have, only senses differences in the temps of the
first surfaces exposed to the camera.. any covered or otherwise obscured
hot/cold spots aren't picked up. Warm and cool areas of a wall, for example,
aren't well defined, definitely not capable of reproducing text.. the warmth
spreads out into subtle areas, not sharp lines.

Being able to detect the area of the hidden message might not be impossible,
but being able to read words of (maybe) 1" letters would probably be
unlikely.

There are commercial wallcovering materials which are much more durable than
simple "paper" types.. maybe the stuff could be carefully released (heat,
solvent etc), then reglued to restore the appearance of the wall.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"mike" <ham789@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:l9nipr$jef$1@dont-email.me...

On 12/28/2013 10:19 AM, N_Cook wrote:
For academic reasons it would be useful to read some hidden script on a
wall that has been papered over with thick and profiled Anaglypta type
wallpaper, ie thicker than ceiling paper or standard wall paper. The
script is supposed to be large lettering of about 1 inch in height and
probably stencilled black paint, applied to the plaster of a wall, since
covered over. Permission to steam off this section of paper is unlikely
to be given but non-intrusive exploration would be allowed.
Assuming a professional IR camera can be borrowed , ie not webcam with
IR filter removed. If sections of the wall were heated for a few
(variable by experiment) seconds with a radiant heat lamp , would it be
possible to resolve a difference between black paint and background
plaster on a IR camera screen, all lying under wallpaper, or any other
ideas
I'd call up the applications guys at FLIR.
If there's any publicity involved, maybe the marketing guys would
provide the equipment.

 

[N_Cook]

On 29/12/2013 05:57, Wild_Bill wrote:

I wonder how FLIR might work, since the message is buried under
wallpaper and maybe paste and/or other materials.

I realize that black objects absorb radiant heat more readily, although
the black paint is embedded and likely to be a very thin segment of the
overall materials making up the wall.
I think the message would be extremely difficult to read unless the
black paint had some special characteristic such a radioactivity, etc.

The Agema thermal camera I have, only senses differences in the temps of
the first surfaces exposed to the camera.. any covered or otherwise
obscured hot/cold spots aren't picked up. Warm and cool areas of a wall,
for example, aren't well defined, definitely not capable of reproducing
text.. the warmth spreads out into subtle areas, not sharp lines.

Being able to detect the area of the hidden message might not be
impossible, but being able to read words of (maybe) 1" letters would
probably be unlikely.

There are commercial wallcovering materials which are much more durable
than simple "paper" types.. maybe the stuff could be carefully released
(heat, solvent etc), then reglued to restore the appearance of the wall.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"mike" <ham789@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:l9nipr$jef$1@dont-email.me...
On 12/28/2013 10:19 AM, N_Cook wrote:
For academic reasons it would be useful to read some hidden script on a
wall that has been papered over with thick and profiled Anaglypta type
wallpaper, ie thicker than ceiling paper or standard wall paper. The
script is supposed to be large lettering of about 1 inch in height and
probably stencilled black paint, applied to the plaster of a wall, since
covered over. Permission to steam off this section of paper is unlikely
to be given but non-intrusive exploration would be allowed.
Assuming a professional IR camera can be borrowed , ie not webcam with
IR filter removed. If sections of the wall were heated for a few
(variable by experiment) seconds with a radiant heat lamp , would it be
possible to resolve a difference between black paint and background
plaster on a IR camera screen, all lying under wallpaper, or any other
ideas
I'd call up the applications guys at FLIR.
If there's any publicity involved, maybe the marketing guys would
provide the equipment.

Thanks for the input, could you go into more detail of the circumstances
where a covering obscured underlying hot/col spots?
Are you saying a slightly warmed object under a room temperature sheet
of thick paper would show up ,but if the paper was heated to a higher
temperature than anything underneath, then only the effect of the
covering would show, masking any lower temperature underlying object?

 

[N_Cook]

Background - I got involved with an academic researching tides, now 3
academics because of confusion in the historical record. Nothing to do
with the research involving a pub ;-) There are current official
publications with erroneous data in them relating to tide heights. Tide
heights get increasingly confused over time, use of Ordnance Survey
datum, Chart Datum, both change over time, rising sea levels and
(locally) falling land levels and then GPS to add to the confusion. So
with loss of records of what datum was applied at differnt times and
places there is a lot of confusion/misinformation. What really matters
for local flooding issues is the height of extreme tides at one spot
over a long period of time, whether that spot of land rises or falls or
seas rise generallly in level, is immaterial.
There is a pub at Cowes, on the Isle of Wight, England, the
Vectis Tavern that used to have the levels the tide reached when it
flooded the pub, marked on a pillar in the bar, with renovations in the
last 10 years only the bottom marks can be seen now under the counter
http://diverse.4mg.com/vectis_tavern_1r.jpg
probably 17 Dec 1989 and 22 Oct 1984 and
batterns, more so obscuring the lower one Date, probably 02 Dec 1909
http://diverse.4mg.com/vectis_tavern_2r.jpg
Efforts are being made to find photos of the pub interior , with this
pillar, before renovations , but so far nothing found
It's reported to me by 3 different people that there used to be a mark
at chest high, but no one can remember the date , probably 27 Nov 1924
or 14 Nov 1931 or even 01 Jan 1877.
The floor of the pub has been there since 1400s (why you have to go down
steps into the main bar area) and this pillar since the Victorian era
and no one can really dispute that. Someone probably redid the marks in
recent times but as a public space unlikely to have moved them around
without someone noticing.
The 1909 mark is 0.64m above the floor and the 1984 0.74m and 1989 0.95m
but which date is the topmost covered-over/erased one and its height,
should be about 1.2 to 1.4m off the floor. The more general academic
argument is the popular conception is that UK weather is getting more
"stormy" (implied with climate change) . But inundation records as a
measure of storminess does not show this, including newspaper reports
back to 1770s and more scientific analysis of the tide+met and surge
records , again , no obvious increase in "storminess".

 

[Rich Webb]

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:00:19 +0000, N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

There is a pub at Cowes, on the Isle of Wight, England, the
Vectis Tavern that used to have the levels the tide reached when it
flooded the pub, marked on a pillar in the bar, with renovations in the
last 10 years only the bottom marks can be seen now under the counter

I would try contacting the conservator department at the British
Museum or one of the major national galleries or universities. I seem
to recall that there are non-destructive techniques involving
millimeter wave scanning or radiation backscatter that have been used
to detect the presence of underpaintings or alterations on, say,
fresco works where a transmission (X-ray) method would be impractical.
Would probably work in this case but definitely not commercial
off-the-shelf equipment.

Get the BBC to fund it in return for broadcast rights and free pints
at the pub and you're in!

 

[N_Cook]

On 29/12/2013 13:33, Rich Webb wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:00:19 +0000, N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

There is a pub at Cowes, on the Isle of Wight, England, the
Vectis Tavern that used to have the levels the tide reached when it
flooded the pub, marked on a pillar in the bar, with renovations in the
last 10 years only the bottom marks can be seen now under the counter

I would try contacting the conservator department at the British
Museum or one of the major national galleries or universities. I seem
to recall that there are non-destructive techniques involving
millimeter wave scanning or radiation backscatter that have been used
to detect the presence of underpaintings or alterations on, say,
fresco works where a transmission (X-ray) method would be impractical.
Would probably work in this case but definitely not commercial
off-the-shelf equipment.

Get the BBC to fund it in return for broadcast rights and free pints
at the pub and you're in!

Good idea, useful publicity for the pub also.
I remember seing video of some burnt ancient pipe-rolls or even older
rolled up papyrus records being read at the British Library. They have
some system that somehow can read individual layers of text dozens of
sheets deep in such rolls, via some fancy IR laser holographic technique
or something. If they tried opening the rolls they would fall into dust.
I think the pubco that owns the pub would agree to steaming off the
covering rather than going to that extreme, especially with TV coverage.

 

[Leif Neland]

Den 29-12-2013, skrev N_Cook:

I think the pubco that owns the pub would agree to steaming off the covering
rather than going to that extreme, especially with TV coverage.

Sure? If I was around a location I'd seen on TV, I probably would see
it, especially if it was a pub.

Leif

--
Husk křrelys bagpĺ, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.

 

[RobertMacy]

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 11:19:03 -0700, N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

For academic reasons it would be useful to read some hidden script on a
wall that has been papered over with thick and profiled Anaglypta type
wallpaper, ie thicker than ceiling paper or standard wall paper. The
script is supposed to be large lettering of about 1 inch in height and
probably stencilled black paint, applied to the plaster of a wall, since
covered over. Permission to steam off this section of paper is unlikely
to be given but non-intrusive exploration would be allowed.
Assuming a professional IR camera can be borrowed , ie not webcam with
IR filter removed. If sections of the wall were heated for a few
(variable by experiment) seconds with a radiant heat lamp , would it be
possible to resolve a difference between black paint and background
plaster on a IR camera screen, all lying under wallpaper, or any other
ideas

The "Non-Destructive Testing Instrumentation" firms make equipment that
could not only do this but have better resolution than you need to read
such huge letter.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Do you have a camcorder? Many of them "see" in infra-red. Try heating the area
of interest, then viewing it through the camera.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Yes, if the first surface is warmer/cooler than the substrate, that's what
my thermal camera would respond to.
BTW, hot or cold air aren't detected, only the temperature of actual
physical materials.

A test I tried when I first got the camera was to place the camera about 2
feet away from a hot (~500F) soldering iron and placing a couple of sheets
of printer paper between them.. the heat of the soldering iron was no longer
detectable.
If I'd moved the paper close to the soldering iron, the paper would've been
heated, most likely in a fairly large oval shape.

If I were to make some letters/symbols in a length of nichrome wire and
covered the wire with paper or various other materials, with a small amount
of power applied to the ends of the wire, the camera would detect the heat
absorbed by the material and display indications/presence of the heat, but I
doubt that the symbols would be clear to a random observer.
As the material continued to absorb heat, there may not be any
distinguishable shapes to represent the symbols.

If the covered numbers of interest were cut out of aluminum foil, or had
some other attributes other than ordinary paint, the methods of detecting
them would probably be much easier.

I would expect dates marked hundreds of years ago could be made by numerous
means.. charcoal, carving woodburning etc.
I couldn't determine if you were describing old markings that were covered
over, or that the old markings were more recently marked with painted
numbers and then covered.

Academics should know of historical organizations involved in recovery of
lost or concealed information.. maybe not weather/climatic academics,
though.

If the info were of any great significance, I would expect that someone can
offer compensation to the property owner for any interruptions/restoration
incurred during the recovery of the info.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:l9on22$c8o$1@dont-email.me...

On 29/12/2013 05:57, Wild_Bill wrote:
I wonder how FLIR might work, since the message is buried under
wallpaper and maybe paste and/or other materials.

I realize that black objects absorb radiant heat more readily, although
the black paint is embedded and likely to be a very thin segment of the
overall materials making up the wall.
I think the message would be extremely difficult to read unless the
black paint had some special characteristic such a radioactivity, etc.

The Agema thermal camera I have, only senses differences in the temps of
the first surfaces exposed to the camera.. any covered or otherwise
obscured hot/cold spots aren't picked up. Warm and cool areas of a wall,
for example, aren't well defined, definitely not capable of reproducing
text.. the warmth spreads out into subtle areas, not sharp lines.

Being able to detect the area of the hidden message might not be
impossible, but being able to read words of (maybe) 1" letters would
probably be unlikely.

There are commercial wallcovering materials which are much more durable
than simple "paper" types.. maybe the stuff could be carefully released
(heat, solvent etc), then reglued to restore the appearance of the wall.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"mike" <ham789@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:l9nipr$jef$1@dont-email.me...
On 12/28/2013 10:19 AM, N_Cook wrote:
For academic reasons it would be useful to read some hidden script on a
wall that has been papered over with thick and profiled Anaglypta type
wallpaper, ie thicker than ceiling paper or standard wall paper. The
script is supposed to be large lettering of about 1 inch in height and
probably stencilled black paint, applied to the plaster of a wall,
since
covered over. Permission to steam off this section of paper is unlikely
to be given but non-intrusive exploration would be allowed.
Assuming a professional IR camera can be borrowed , ie not webcam with
IR filter removed. If sections of the wall were heated for a few
(variable by experiment) seconds with a radiant heat lamp , would it be
possible to resolve a difference between black paint and background
plaster on a IR camera screen, all lying under wallpaper, or any other
ideas
I'd call up the applications guys at FLIR.
If there's any publicity involved, maybe the marketing guys would
provide the equipment.


Thanks for the input, could you go into more detail of the circumstances
where a covering obscured underlying hot/col spots?
Are you saying a slightly warmed object under a room temperature sheet of
thick paper would show up ,but if the paper was heated to a higher
temperature than anything underneath, then only the effect of the covering
would show, masking any lower temperature underlying object?

 

[N_Cook]

On 30/12/2013 00:25, Wild_Bill wrote:

Yes, if the first surface is warmer/cooler than the substrate, that's
what my thermal camera would respond to.
BTW, hot or cold air aren't detected, only the temperature of actual
physical materials.

A test I tried when I first got the camera was to place the camera about
2 feet away from a hot (~500F) soldering iron and placing a couple of
sheets of printer paper between them.. the heat of the soldering iron
was no longer detectable.
If I'd moved the paper close to the soldering iron, the paper would've
been heated, most likely in a fairly large oval shape.

If I were to make some letters/symbols in a length of nichrome wire and
covered the wire with paper or various other materials, with a small
amount of power applied to the ends of the wire, the camera would detect
the heat absorbed by the material and display indications/presence of
the heat, but I doubt that the symbols would be clear to a random observer.
As the material continued to absorb heat, there may not be any
distinguishable shapes to represent the symbols.

If the covered numbers of interest were cut out of aluminum foil, or had
some other attributes other than ordinary paint, the methods of
detecting them would probably be much easier.

I would expect dates marked hundreds of years ago could be made by
numerous means.. charcoal, carving woodburning etc.
I couldn't determine if you were describing old markings that were
covered over, or that the old markings were more recently marked with
painted numbers and then covered.

Academics should know of historical organizations involved in recovery
of lost or concealed information.. maybe not weather/climatic academics,
though.

If the info were of any great significance, I would expect that someone
can offer compensation to the property owner for any
interruptions/restoration incurred during the recovery of the info.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:l9on22$c8o$1@dont-email.me...
On 29/12/2013 05:57, Wild_Bill wrote:
I wonder how FLIR might work, since the message is buried under
wallpaper and maybe paste and/or other materials.

I realize that black objects absorb radiant heat more readily, although
the black paint is embedded and likely to be a very thin segment of the
overall materials making up the wall.
I think the message would be extremely difficult to read unless the
black paint had some special characteristic such a radioactivity, etc.

The Agema thermal camera I have, only senses differences in the temps of
the first surfaces exposed to the camera.. any covered or otherwise
obscured hot/cold spots aren't picked up. Warm and cool areas of a wall,
for example, aren't well defined, definitely not capable of reproducing
text.. the warmth spreads out into subtle areas, not sharp lines.

Being able to detect the area of the hidden message might not be
impossible, but being able to read words of (maybe) 1" letters would
probably be unlikely.

There are commercial wallcovering materials which are much more durable
than simple "paper" types.. maybe the stuff could be carefully released
(heat, solvent etc), then reglued to restore the appearance of the wall.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"mike" <ham789@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:l9nipr$jef$1@dont-email.me...
On 12/28/2013 10:19 AM, N_Cook wrote:
For academic reasons it would be useful to read some hidden script
on a
wall that has been papered over with thick and profiled Anaglypta type
wallpaper, ie thicker than ceiling paper or standard wall paper. The
script is supposed to be large lettering of about 1 inch in height and
probably stencilled black paint, applied to the plaster of a wall,
since
covered over. Permission to steam off this section of paper is
unlikely
to be given but non-intrusive exploration would be allowed.
Assuming a professional IR camera can be borrowed , ie not webcam with
IR filter removed. If sections of the wall were heated for a few
(variable by experiment) seconds with a radiant heat lamp , would
it be
possible to resolve a difference between black paint and background
plaster on a IR camera screen, all lying under wallpaper, or any other
ideas
I'd call up the applications guys at FLIR.
If there's any publicity involved, maybe the marketing guys would
provide the equipment.


Thanks for the input, could you go into more detail of the
circumstances where a covering obscured underlying hot/col spots?
Are you saying a slightly warmed object under a room temperature sheet
of thick paper would show up ,but if the paper was heated to a higher
temperature than anything underneath, then only the effect of the
covering would show, masking any lower temperature underlying object?

So your soldering iron and paper shows unlikely. Leaves about the only
possibility is trying the following. Heat up the wall evenly, then cool
a flat sheet of metal with freezer spray and apply to the covering paper
for some small variously timed amount of time. Hopefully cooling just
the top layer and hoping the underlying black would be marginally warmer
than the plaster then by secondary back heating of the paper , perhaps
some resolvable script.
Once we find where the black stripes are then the scripts would be
located just above them

 

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 08:13:42 +0000, N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

On 30/12/2013 00:25, Wild_Bill wrote:
Yes, if the first surface is warmer/cooler than the substrate, that's
what my thermal camera would respond to.
BTW, hot or cold air aren't detected, only the temperature of actual
physical materials.

A test I tried when I first got the camera was to place the camera about
2 feet away from a hot (~500F) soldering iron and placing a couple of
sheets of printer paper between them.. the heat of the soldering iron
was no longer detectable.
If I'd moved the paper close to the soldering iron, the paper would've
been heated, most likely in a fairly large oval shape.

If I were to make some letters/symbols in a length of nichrome wire and
covered the wire with paper or various other materials, with a small
amount of power applied to the ends of the wire, the camera would detect
the heat absorbed by the material and display indications/presence of
the heat, but I doubt that the symbols would be clear to a random observer.
As the material continued to absorb heat, there may not be any
distinguishable shapes to represent the symbols.

If the covered numbers of interest were cut out of aluminum foil, or had
some other attributes other than ordinary paint, the methods of
detecting them would probably be much easier.

I would expect dates marked hundreds of years ago could be made by
numerous means.. charcoal, carving woodburning etc.
I couldn't determine if you were describing old markings that were
covered over, or that the old markings were more recently marked with
painted numbers and then covered.

Academics should know of historical organizations involved in recovery
of lost or concealed information.. maybe not weather/climatic academics,
though.

If the info were of any great significance, I would expect that someone
can offer compensation to the property owner for any
interruptions/restoration incurred during the recovery of the info.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:l9on22$c8o$1@dont-email.me...
On 29/12/2013 05:57, Wild_Bill wrote:
I wonder how FLIR might work, since the message is buried under
wallpaper and maybe paste and/or other materials.

I realize that black objects absorb radiant heat more readily, although
the black paint is embedded and likely to be a very thin segment of the
overall materials making up the wall.
I think the message would be extremely difficult to read unless the
black paint had some special characteristic such a radioactivity, etc.

The Agema thermal camera I have, only senses differences in the temps of
the first surfaces exposed to the camera.. any covered or otherwise
obscured hot/cold spots aren't picked up. Warm and cool areas of a wall,
for example, aren't well defined, definitely not capable of reproducing
text.. the warmth spreads out into subtle areas, not sharp lines.

Being able to detect the area of the hidden message might not be
impossible, but being able to read words of (maybe) 1" letters would
probably be unlikely.

There are commercial wallcovering materials which are much more durable
than simple "paper" types.. maybe the stuff could be carefully released
(heat, solvent etc), then reglued to restore the appearance of the wall.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"mike" <ham789@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:l9nipr$jef$1@dont-email.me...
On 12/28/2013 10:19 AM, N_Cook wrote:
For academic reasons it would be useful to read some hidden script
on a
wall that has been papered over with thick and profiled Anaglypta type
wallpaper, ie thicker than ceiling paper or standard wall paper. The
script is supposed to be large lettering of about 1 inch in height and
probably stencilled black paint, applied to the plaster of a wall,
since
covered over. Permission to steam off this section of paper is
unlikely
to be given but non-intrusive exploration would be allowed.
Assuming a professional IR camera can be borrowed , ie not webcam with
IR filter removed. If sections of the wall were heated for a few
(variable by experiment) seconds with a radiant heat lamp , would
it be
possible to resolve a difference between black paint and background
plaster on a IR camera screen, all lying under wallpaper, or any other
ideas
I'd call up the applications guys at FLIR.
If there's any publicity involved, maybe the marketing guys would
provide the equipment.


Thanks for the input, could you go into more detail of the
circumstances where a covering obscured underlying hot/col spots?
Are you saying a slightly warmed object under a room temperature sheet
of thick paper would show up ,but if the paper was heated to a higher
temperature than anything underneath, then only the effect of the
covering would show, masking any lower temperature underlying object?



So your soldering iron and paper shows unlikely. Leaves about the only
possibility is trying the following. Heat up the wall evenly, then cool
a flat sheet of metal with freezer spray and apply to the covering paper
for some small variously timed amount of time. Hopefully cooling just
the top layer and hoping the underlying black would be marginally warmer
than the plaster then by secondary back heating of the paper , perhaps
some resolvable script.
Once we find where the black stripes are then the scripts would be
located just above them

If you had a camera sensitive enough to small temperature differences,
and if the lettered area absorbs heat at a enough of a faster or
slower rate than the surface they are on, then you might be able to
see the slightly cooler or hotter area on the surface that's on top of
the letters. Why not email FLIR and ask them?
Eric

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