OT Dumb Question - Why Vote?

[Steve Wilson]

Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 12:46:02 AM UTC-5, Steve Wilson wrote:

Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

The election does matter in that it elects a President. The President is not selected by popular vote, one person, one vote. Not remotely ideal, but it is what it is for the time being. We are working on getting around this with a many state pact. Watch this spot for further details.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[gregz]

Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

It appears people who own a bigger chunk of US land have a bigger vote.
Seems fair.

Greg

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 10:13:56 AM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:

On 11/5/19 12:45 AM, Steve Wilson wrote:
Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html


The electoral college isn't in practice free to just vote any way they want.

Sometimes they try to cast votes for someone different than who they
pledged their votes to, it's called a "faithless elector":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector

They tend to have their renegade votes just invalidated when that
happens, nearly all states have "winner-take-all" rules and the "voting"
of the college is just a formality.

Then they probably get kicked out of their party and lose their position
on the college.

You seem to be underlining the actual problem. The issue of a faithless elector is really just a pimple on top of the fetid pustule known as the electoral college.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 3:10:22 AM UTC-5, Gz wrote:

Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:
Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

It appears people who own a bigger chunk of US land have a bigger vote.
Seems fair.

Sorry, what are you talking about?

BTW, I should be living in PA for the next election (in the process of buying a house now) so I should be able to help in the the process this time. The last couple of national elections I lived in states where the outcome was far from uncertain. It won't be a "large" chunk of land, but I'll get the same one vote as everyone else in this critical battleground state.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[bitrex]

On 11/5/19 1:07 AM, Rick C wrote:

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 12:46:02 AM UTC-5, Steve Wilson wrote:
Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

The election does matter in that it elects a President. The President is not selected by popular vote, one person, one vote. Not remotely ideal, but it is what it is for the time being. We are working on getting around this with a many state pact. Watch this spot for further details.

I think the question is more basic than that he's asking why have a
popular election at all if there are just these people in the "electoral
college" who can vote however they like.

Reason is the members of the College can't actually, in practice, just
vote however they like.

 

[bitrex]

On 11/5/19 12:45 AM, Steve Wilson wrote:

Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

The electoral college isn't in practice free to just vote any way they want.

Sometimes they try to cast votes for someone different than who they
pledged their votes to, it's called a "faithless elector":

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector>

They tend to have their renegade votes just invalidated when that
happens, nearly all states have "winner-take-all" rules and the "voting"
of the college is just a formality.

Then they probably get kicked out of their party and lose their position
on the college.

 

[mpm]

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 12:46:02 AM UTC-5, Steve Wilson wrote:

Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

A better question is why vote at all, when its pretty clear that, as a whole, "society" doesn't really give a shit about anything, except perhaps, their own personal gain?

And a follow-up question: Why so much interest in national politics, when it's very clear the politics that affect you the most are the ones that are regional and closer to home.

I just finished reading the book "Why Meadow Died" about that Parkland Shooting and how the idiotic policies of the Broward County School Board played a MAJOR part in what transpired. I highly recommend the book. You can't come away from reading it thinking that literally anything matters when it comes to politics. Neither the politicians, nor the people that elect them, have enough sense to run two neurons together. In short, we are screwed - Electoral College or not, Impeachment or not. It is all just theater.

 

[bitrex]

On 11/6/19 10:39 AM, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 10:13:56 AM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 11/5/19 12:45 AM, Steve Wilson wrote:
Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html


The electoral college isn't in practice free to just vote any way they want.

Sometimes they try to cast votes for someone different than who they
pledged their votes to, it's called a "faithless elector":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector

They tend to have their renegade votes just invalidated when that
happens, nearly all states have "winner-take-all" rules and the "voting"
of the college is just a formality.

Then they probably get kicked out of their party and lose their position
on the college.

You seem to be underlining the actual problem. The issue of a faithless elector is really just a pimple on top of the fetid pustule known as the electoral college.

Maybe so but I'm just trying to address the OP's question specifically
which seemed to be more of a mechanical one about how things are in
practice currently, rather than any deeper issues.

 

[bitrex]

On 11/6/19 11:24 AM, mpm wrote:

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 12:46:02 AM UTC-5, Steve Wilson wrote:
Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

A better question is why vote at all, when its pretty clear that, as a whole, "society" doesn't really give a shit about anything, except perhaps, their own personal gain?

Spoken like a true old fogie from the old-fogie-farm. What'd "society"
ever do to you to make you so jaded; society shoot your Mom or something?

Have a real tough life in all probability living the majority of it in a
nice suburban home with two cars in the driveway and good food on the
table, probably walking around like most people do with two functioning
arms and legs and not spending the majority of it in a wheelchair unable
to speak like this one guy with cerebral palsy who lives down the block
from me?

wow. tough life, man.

And a follow-up question: Why so much interest in national politics, when it's very clear the politics that affect you the most are the ones that are regional and closer to home.

I just finished reading the book "Why Meadow Died" about that Parkland Shooting and how the idiotic policies of the Broward County School Board played a MAJOR part in what transpired. I highly recommend the book. You can't come away from reading it thinking that literally anything matters when it comes to politics. Neither the politicians, nor the people that elect them, have enough sense to run two neurons together. In short, we are screwed - Electoral College or not, Impeachment or not. It is all just theater.

Thing I admired best about my late father from the so-called Greatest
Generation wasn't his military service, it's while he got old, he lived
to 91. but he never got "old." Most of those guys are gone now but from
time to time I think it's worth saying "suck it up, buttercup" on their
behalf. It's definitely what they'd say. Stop feeling sorry for yourself
and try being a man from time to time it feels good.

 

[bitrex]

On 11/6/19 11:42 AM, bitrex wrote:

On 11/6/19 10:39 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 10:13:56 AM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 11/5/19 12:45 AM, Steve Wilson wrote:
Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college,
why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html


The electoral college isn't in practice free to just vote any way
they want.

Sometimes they try to cast votes for someone different than who they
pledged their votes to, it's called a "faithless elector":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector

They tend to have their renegade votes just invalidated when that
happens, nearly all states have "winner-take-all" rules and the "voting"
of the college is just a formality.

Then they probably get kicked out of their party and lose their position
on the college.

You seem to be underlining the actual problem.  The issue of a
faithless elector is really just a pimple on top of the fetid pustule
known as the electoral college.


Maybe so but I'm just trying to address the OP's question specifically
which seemed to be more of a mechanical one about how things are in
practice currently, rather than any deeper issues.

That is to say it's probably not worth a _Canadians_ time to dive deep
into all the hows-and-whys the American political system is fucked up
beyond just having some academic knowledge of the way it is fucked up at
the present time.

My advice for them is just to think "huh that's fucked up" and go about
one's business of whatever it is people do with their time in Canada.

 

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 11:25:00 AM UTC-5, mpm wrote:

A better question is why vote at all, when its pretty clear that, as a whole, "society" doesn't really give a shit about anything, except perhaps, their own personal gain?

And a follow-up question: Why so much interest in national politics, when it's very clear the politics that affect you the most are the ones that are regional and closer to home.

I just finished reading the book "Why Meadow Died" about that Parkland Shooting and how the idiotic policies of the Broward County School Board played a MAJOR part in what transpired. I highly recommend the book. You can't come away from reading it thinking that literally anything matters when it comes to politics. Neither the politicians, nor the people that elect them, have enough sense to run two neurons together. In short, we are screwed - Electoral College or not, Impeachment or not. It is all just theater.

Nearly 7,000 people die of all causes each day in the country. A high school shooting here or there doesn't amount to anything. And the number of deaths due to violence pales compared to the number of deaths due to toxins in the environment the government does next to nothing to prevent.

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 11:25:00 AM UTC-5, mpm wrote:

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 12:46:02 AM UTC-5, Steve Wilson wrote:
Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

A better question is why vote at all, when its pretty clear that, as a whole, "society" doesn't really give a shit about anything, except perhaps, their own personal gain?

What is the connection between society not caring about "anything" and whether or not you vote???


> And a follow-up question: Why so much interest in national politics, when it's very clear the politics that affect you the most are the ones that are regional and closer to home.

I don't agree with that at all. National politics has major impacts on each of us. Look at the benifits we either receive or fail to receive depending on the decisions in government. If nothing else consider taxes! The feds get some tens of percent of your income while the states and locals get much less. Even property taxes pale in comparison to federal taxes.


> I just finished reading the book "Why Meadow Died" about that Parkland Shooting and how the idiotic policies of the Broward County School Board played a MAJOR part in what transpired. I highly recommend the book. You can't come away from reading it thinking that literally anything matters when it comes to politics. Neither the politicians, nor the people that elect them, have enough sense to run two neurons together. In short, we are screwed - Electoral College or not, Impeachment or not. It is all just theater.

I can't argue with the proposition that "We, the people" are not well suited to select those who lead us and those who offer themselves for us to choose from are often not so good at doing the job. But then largely, the politicians have to be who they are in order to get elected. It's not like we select our politicians much differently than we select the winner of American Idol. At least in American Idol we actually get to vote for that person directly instead of having a bunch of state governments in our way.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 1:03:17 PM UTC-5, bloggs.fre...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 11:25:00 AM UTC-5, mpm wrote:

A better question is why vote at all, when its pretty clear that, as a whole, "society" doesn't really give a shit about anything, except perhaps, their own personal gain?

And a follow-up question: Why so much interest in national politics, when it's very clear the politics that affect you the most are the ones that are regional and closer to home.

I just finished reading the book "Why Meadow Died" about that Parkland Shooting and how the idiotic policies of the Broward County School Board played a MAJOR part in what transpired. I highly recommend the book. You can't come away from reading it thinking that literally anything matters when it comes to politics. Neither the politicians, nor the people that elect them, have enough sense to run two neurons together. In short, we are screwed - Electoral College or not, Impeachment or not. It is all just theater..

Nearly 7,000 people die of all causes each day in the country. A high school shooting here or there doesn't amount to anything. And the number of deaths due to violence pales compared to the number of deaths due to toxins in the environment the government does next to nothing to prevent.

So if someone walks up to you tonight and puts a bullet in your brain, we should do nothing about it because it only affected one person and those around him?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Robert Baer]

bitrex wrote:

On 11/5/19 1:07 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 12:46:02 AM UTC-5, Steve Wilson wrote:
Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college,
why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

The election does matter in that it elects a President.  The President
is not selected by popular vote, one person, one vote.  Not remotely
ideal, but it is what it is for the time being.  We are working on
getting around this with a many state pact.  Watch this spot for
further details.


I think the question is more basic than that he's asking why have a
popular election at all if there are just these people in the "electoral
college" who can vote however they like.

Reason is the members of the College can't actually, in practice, just
vote however they like.

Not exactly true.
As a _group_ if they decide somebody else (even if not on ballot, but
qalified) should be the Pres, then they CAN vote for that person.

 

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 9:38:58 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 1:03:17 PM UTC-5, bloggs.fre...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 11:25:00 AM UTC-5, mpm wrote:

A better question is why vote at all, when its pretty clear that, as a whole, "society" doesn't really give a shit about anything, except perhaps, their own personal gain?

And a follow-up question: Why so much interest in national politics, when it's very clear the politics that affect you the most are the ones that are regional and closer to home.

I just finished reading the book "Why Meadow Died" about that Parkland Shooting and how the idiotic policies of the Broward County School Board played a MAJOR part in what transpired. I highly recommend the book. You can't come away from reading it thinking that literally anything matters when it comes to politics. Neither the politicians, nor the people that elect them, have enough sense to run two neurons together. In short, we are screwed - Electoral College or not, Impeachment or not. It is all just theater.

Nearly 7,000 people die of all causes each day in the country. A high school shooting here or there doesn't amount to anything. And the number of deaths due to violence pales compared to the number of deaths due to toxins in the environment the government does next to nothing to prevent.

So if someone walks up to you tonight and puts a bullet in your brain, we should do nothing about it because it only affected one person and those around him?

*You* shouldn't do anything, the standard law enforcement response should be enough. There's no need for a bunch grandstanding politicians and other activists, who have no idea what they're talking about, to get involved.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Flyguy]

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 9:46:02 PM UTC-8, Steve Wilson wrote:

Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

Remember, the President is just ONE position on the ballets; all the others are decided by a majority vote. The Electoral College, along with the House and the Senate, were a compromise by the Founding Fathers (Jefferson, Hamilton, etc.) that was essential to the creation of the Union. And guess what, it WORKED!

Trump is a master at mining electoral college votes and doesn't even bother campaigning in the Left Coast states (where I live). This is how he beat an "unbeatable" candidate with HALF the money. This is why most presidential polls are irrelevant and wrong.

Tom

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, November 9, 2019 at 3:53:12 AM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:

On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 9:46:02 PM UTC-8, Steve Wilson wrote:
Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college, why spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls when they don't
matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

Remember, the President is just ONE position on the ballets; all the others are decided by a majority vote. The Electoral College, along with the House and the Senate, were a compromise by the Founding Fathers (Jefferson, Hamilton, etc.) that was essential to the creation of the Union. And guess what, it WORKED!

Sort of. No subsequent constitution has bothered to copy the electoral college, which might have been justified as a bribe to the smaller states, but wss a remarkably silly idea even at the time, and hasn't ever actually delivered what Hamilton claimed for it (in federalist 68).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._68

> Trump is a master at mining electoral college votes and doesn't even bother campaigning in the Left Coast states (where I live). This is how he beat an "unbeatable" candidate with HALF the money. This is why most presidential polls are irrelevant and wrong.

This rather ignores what the Russians spent in the three states that that swung the 2016 presidential election. Trump didn't spend that money, but if you could work out what the Russians did spend and add it to what he spent he'd look less impressive.

The presidential polls that failed to predict his win didn't assert that Hillary was "unbeatable". Nate Silver - 538 - gave her a three-fold better chance of winning than Trump, but did point out that the least favoured candidate won in 25% of such situations if the odds had been worked out right, and cited sports team that had recently won against exactly those odds.

It's unlikely that the Russians are going to be able to do it again, and Trump has had three years of demonstrating that he doesn't go to the trouble of making good choices (as if his business history ever showed anything else).

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Winfield Hill]

gregz wrote...

Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:
Pardon for the dumb question - I am Canadian and do not understand US
politics. But if the president is decided by the electoral college,
why spend hundreds of millions of dollars on elections and polls
when they don't matter?

Please see

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html

It appears people who own a bigger chunk of US land have
a bigger vote. Seems fair.

But, unfortunately, while the size of the land owned
may matter, the value of the land does not, very much.


--
Thanks,
- Win