OT: Debit card with WiFi?...

[John Doe]

I suppose it\'s not WiFi in the debit card, but somehow the new debit
card can be sensed by WiFi from the cash machine. Anybody have and use
one yet? I have such a card but haven\'t used that feature/function.

You do not insert the card, they say you \"tap\" it on the machine.

 

[Don Y]

On 8/11/2020 5:00 AM, John Doe wrote:

I suppose it\'s not WiFi in the debit card, but somehow the new debit
card can be sensed by WiFi from the cash machine. Anybody have and use
one yet? I have such a card but haven\'t used that feature/function.

You do not insert the card, they say you \"tap\" it on the machine.

Not all things \"wireless\" are WiFi.

Google \"NFC\" (hint: your phone can likely do it, too)

 

[Martin Brown]

On 11/08/2020 13:00, John Doe wrote:

I suppose it\'s not WiFi in the debit card, but somehow the new debit
card can be sensed by WiFi from the cash machine. Anybody have and use
one yet? I have such a card but haven\'t used that feature/function.

Contactless RF induction based communication.

They have been around in the UK and Europe for ages along with peculiar
adverts for them. I never could see why I would ever want to buy one
banana whilst on a waterslide but Barclaycard did. URL below - enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WlRcXIO5ik

Since it is set in America I had assumed they were common there too.
Evidently it is not a metallic pipe.

You do not insert the card, they say you \"tap\" it on the machine.

Wave it close enough and the thing powers up from near field radiation
and does a cryptographic exchange with the terminal. They have been
invaluable during the pandemic and the payment limit in the UK was
increased for contactless payments shortly after the lockdown began.

Avoids touching any nasty dirty terminal keyboards (except that about
once in 30 consecutive contactless transactions it demands a PIN). That
limit has been reached on many people\'s cards recently confusing the
hell out of consumers and till operators alike.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Robert Baer]

Martin Brown wrote:

On 11/08/2020 13:00, John Doe wrote:
I suppose it\'s not WiFi in the debit card, but somehow the new debit
card can be sensed by WiFi from the cash machine. Anybody have and use
one yet? I have such a card but haven\'t used that feature/function.

Contactless RF induction based communication.

They have been around in the UK and Europe for ages along with peculiar
adverts for them. I never could see why I would ever want to buy one
banana whilst on a waterslide but Barclaycard did. URL below - enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WlRcXIO5ik

Since it is set in America I had assumed they were common there too.
Evidently it is not a metallic pipe.

You do not insert the card, they say you \"tap\" it on the machine.

Wave it close enough and the thing powers up from near field radiation
and does a cryptographic exchange with the terminal. They have been
invaluable during the pandemic and the payment limit in the UK was
increased for contactless payments shortly after the lockdown began.

Avoids touching any nasty dirty terminal keyboards (except that about
once in 30 consecutive contactless transactions it demands a PIN). That
limit has been reached on many people\'s cards recently confusing the
hell out of consumers and till operators alike.

They have an interesting sequence of ads, worth viewing.
What follows is even MORE interestng: Tom Scholz: Sound Machine

 

[John Doe]

Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

John Doe wrote:

I suppose it\'s not WiFi in the debit card, but somehow the new
debit card can be sensed by WiFi from the cash machine. Anybody
have and use one yet? I have such a card but haven\'t used that
feature/function.

Contactless RF induction based communication.

They have been around in the UK and Europe for ages along with
peculiar adverts for them. I never could see why I would ever want
to buy one banana whilst on a waterslide but Barclaycard did. URL
below - enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WlRcXIO5ik

Since it is set in America I had assumed they were common there
too. Evidently it is not a metallic pipe.

You do not insert the card, they say you \"tap\" it on the machine.

Wave it close enough and the thing powers up from near field
radiation

It\'s not tapping, it\'s the card being close to the machine? That was a
technical detail I was curious about.

Must you wave it?

radiation and does a cryptographic exchange with the terminal.
They have been invaluable during the pandemic and the payment
limit in the UK was increased for contactless payments shortly
after the lockdown began.

Avoids touching any nasty dirty terminal keyboards (except that
about once in 30 consecutive contactless transactions it demands a
PIN). That limit has been reached on many people\'s cards recently
confusing the hell out of consumers and till operators alike.

It also avoids user input. I will use it if I see a compatible
machine.

 

[server]

On Tuesday, August 11, 2020 at 3:53:42 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:

Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

John Doe wrote:

I suppose it\'s not WiFi in the debit card, but somehow the new
debit card can be sensed by WiFi from the cash machine. Anybody
have and use one yet? I have such a card but haven\'t used that
feature/function.

Contactless RF induction based communication.

They have been around in the UK and Europe for ages along with
peculiar adverts for them. I never could see why I would ever want
to buy one banana whilst on a waterslide but Barclaycard did. URL
below - enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WlRcXIO5ik

Since it is set in America I had assumed they were common there
too. Evidently it is not a metallic pipe.

You do not insert the card, they say you \"tap\" it on the machine.

Wave it close enough and the thing powers up from near field
radiation

It\'s not tapping, it\'s the card being close to the machine? That was a
technical detail I was curious about.

Must you wave it?

No need to tap or wave, just place it close enough for the build-in coil for detection and power.

For us, EV drivers, we use RFID cards almost daily. Most EV chargers have RFID reader rather than magnetic card reader. I carry three cards at a minimum. It would be nice if the chargers can just use credit cards with RFID.

 

[John Doe]

edward.ming wrote:

John Doe wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
John Doe wrote:

I suppose it\'s not WiFi in the debit card, but somehow the new
debit card can be sensed by WiFi from the cash machine.
Anybody have and use one yet? I have such a card but haven\'t
used that feature/function.

Contactless RF induction based communication.

They have been around in the UK and Europe for ages along with
peculiar adverts for them. I never could see why I would ever
want to buy one banana whilst on a waterslide but Barclaycard
did. URL below - enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WlRcXIO5ik

Since it is set in America I had assumed they were common there
too. Evidently it is not a metallic pipe.

You do not insert the card, they say you \"tap\" it on the
machine.

Wave it close enough and the thing powers up from near field
radiation

It\'s not tapping, it\'s the card being close to the machine? That
was a technical detail I was curious about.

Must you wave it?

No need to tap or wave, just place it close enough for the
build-in coil for detection and power.

So the card has electronic components that are powered similar to a
contactless electric toothbrush resting in a charger.





--

For us, EV drivers, we use RFID cards almost daily. Most EV
chargers have RFID reader rather than magnetic card reader. I
carry three cards at a minimum. It would be nice if the chargers
can just use credit cards with RFID.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 13/08/2020 06:22, John Doe wrote:

edward.ming wrote:

John Doe wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
John Doe wrote:

I suppose it\'s not WiFi in the debit card, but somehow the new
debit card can be sensed by WiFi from the cash machine.
Anybody have and use one yet? I have such a card but haven\'t
used that feature/function.

Contactless RF induction based communication.

They have been around in the UK and Europe for ages along with
peculiar adverts for them. I never could see why I would ever
want to buy one banana whilst on a waterslide but Barclaycard
did. URL below - enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WlRcXIO5ik

Since it is set in America I had assumed they were common there
too. Evidently it is not a metallic pipe.

You do not insert the card, they say you \"tap\" it on the
machine.

Wave it close enough and the thing powers up from near field
radiation

It\'s not tapping, it\'s the card being close to the machine? That
was a technical detail I was curious about.

Must you wave it?

No need to tap or wave, just place it close enough for the
build-in coil for detection and power.

So the card has electronic components that are powered similar to a
contactless electric toothbrush resting in a charger.

Combined transmit/receive antenna that delivers just enough power to the
chip at close range for it to work.

If you have an Xray machine or strike an electric arc behind a nice
clean white one you can see the internals for yourself.

Some paranoid people who object to contactless on principle have
determined where to drill into them to disable the antenna. Others of
the same tin foil hat brigade put them in overpriced shielded wallets.

https://hackaday.com/2014/08/23/disabling-tap-to-pay-debit-cards/

BTW note the date on this URL are the US really 6 years behind on this
banking technology compared to the ROW?
ISTR you still use magnetic stripes or has that now changed?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[server]

On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 12:51:01 AM UTC-7, Martin Brown wrote:

On 13/08/2020 06:22, John Doe wrote:
edward.ming wrote:

John Doe wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
John Doe wrote:

I suppose it\'s not WiFi in the debit card, but somehow the new
debit card can be sensed by WiFi from the cash machine.
Anybody have and use one yet? I have such a card but haven\'t
used that feature/function.

Contactless RF induction based communication.

They have been around in the UK and Europe for ages along with
peculiar adverts for them. I never could see why I would ever
want to buy one banana whilst on a waterslide but Barclaycard
did. URL below - enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WlRcXIO5ik

Since it is set in America I had assumed they were common there
too. Evidently it is not a metallic pipe.

You do not insert the card, they say you \"tap\" it on the
machine.

Wave it close enough and the thing powers up from near field
radiation

It\'s not tapping, it\'s the card being close to the machine? That
was a technical detail I was curious about.

Must you wave it?

No need to tap or wave, just place it close enough for the
build-in coil for detection and power.

So the card has electronic components that are powered similar to a
contactless electric toothbrush resting in a charger.

Combined transmit/receive antenna that delivers just enough power to the
chip at close range for it to work.

If you have an Xray machine or strike an electric arc behind a nice
clean white one you can see the internals for yourself.

Some paranoid people who object to contactless on principle have
determined where to drill into them to disable the antenna. Others of
the same tin foil hat brigade put them in overpriced shielded wallets.

https://hackaday.com/2014/08/23/disabling-tap-to-pay-debit-cards/

I, OTOH, would want to combine several antennas into one. The EV charging companies all want us to carry (or advertise) their cards, and the only purpose is to tie to the credit card info already on file. Hopefully, they can just accept the RFID from the credit card.

BTW note the date on this URL are the US really 6 years behind on this
banking technology compared to the ROW?
ISTR you still use magnetic stripes or has that now changed?

Yes, we, the US, are defenders of old technologies. Many readers still use magnetic stripes.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-08-13 12:58, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, August 13, 2020 at 12:51:01 AM UTC-7, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 13/08/2020 06:22, John Doe wrote:
edward.ming wrote:

John Doe wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
John Doe wrote:

I suppose it\'s not WiFi in the debit card, but somehow
the new debit card can be sensed by WiFi from the cash
machine. Anybody have and use one yet? I have such a card
but haven\'t used that feature/function.

Contactless RF induction based communication.

They have been around in the UK and Europe for ages along
with peculiar adverts for them. I never could see why I
would ever want to buy one banana whilst on a waterslide
but Barclaycard did. URL below - enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WlRcXIO5ik

Since it is set in America I had assumed they were common
there too. Evidently it is not a metallic pipe.

You do not insert the card, they say you \"tap\" it on the
machine.

Wave it close enough and the thing powers up from near
field radiation

It\'s not tapping, it\'s the card being close to the machine?
That was a technical detail I was curious about.

Must you wave it?

No need to tap or wave, just place it close enough for the
build-in coil for detection and power.

So the card has electronic components that are powered similar to
a contactless electric toothbrush resting in a charger.

Combined transmit/receive antenna that delivers just enough power
to the chip at close range for it to work.

If you have an Xray machine or strike an electric arc behind a
nice clean white one you can see the internals for yourself.

Some paranoid people who object to contactless on principle have
determined where to drill into them to disable the antenna. Others
of the same tin foil hat brigade put them in overpriced shielded
wallets.

https://hackaday.com/2014/08/23/disabling-tap-to-pay-debit-cards/

I, OTOH, would want to combine several antennas into one. The EV
charging companies all want us to carry (or advertise) their cards,
and the only purpose is to tie to the credit card info already on
file. Hopefully, they can just accept the RFID from the credit
card.

BTW note the date on this URL are the US really 6 years behind on
this banking technology compared to the ROW? ISTR you still use
magnetic stripes or has that now changed?

Yes, we, the US, are defenders of old technologies. Many readers
still use magnetic stripes.

IIRC the banks got the consumer protection legislation loosened for chip
cards, so although chip cards help them, they\'re a net minus for me,
except for being able to use them in the rest of the world.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Martin Brown]

On 13/08/2020 19:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2020-08-13 12:58, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:

Yes, we, the US, are defenders of old technologies. Many readers
still use magnetic stripes.

IIRC the banks got the consumer protection legislation loosened for chip
cards, so although chip cards help them, they\'re a net minus for me,
except for being able to use them in the rest of the world.

How so? They are intrinsically more secure devices.

There are a couple of very technical hacks possible but if they actually
should happen to you there is an excellent UK expert witness available
to demolish anything the banks might try on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19559124


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-08-13 16:24, Martin Brown wrote:

On 13/08/2020 19:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-13 12:58, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:

Yes, we, the US, are defenders of old technologies. Many readers
still use magnetic stripes.

IIRC the banks got the consumer protection legislation loosened for
chip cards, so although chip cards help them, they\'re a net minus for
me, except for being able to use them in the rest of the world.

How so? They are intrinsically more secure devices.

There are a couple of very technical hacks possible but if they actually
should happen to you there is an excellent UK expert witness available
to demolish anything the banks might try on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19559124

I know they\'re more secure, but the insecurity of the mag stripes is the
banks\' worry, not the cardholders\', whose liability is limited to $50 no
matter what. I forget the details, but that legal protection has been
significantly eroded for users of chip cards.

So it\'s entirely rational for US cardholders to prefer mag stripe cards
unless they need to buy gas in Europe.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

fredag den 14. august 2020 kl. 01.00.28 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:

On 2020-08-13 16:24, Martin Brown wrote:
On 13/08/2020 19:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-13 12:58, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:

Yes, we, the US, are defenders of old technologies. Many readers
still use magnetic stripes.

IIRC the banks got the consumer protection legislation loosened for
chip cards, so although chip cards help them, they\'re a net minus for
me, except for being able to use them in the rest of the world.

How so? They are intrinsically more secure devices.

There are a couple of very technical hacks possible but if they actually
should happen to you there is an excellent UK expert witness available
to demolish anything the banks might try on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19559124



I know they\'re more secure, but the insecurity of the mag stripes is the
banks\' worry, not the cardholders\', whose liability is limited to $50 no
matter what. I forget the details, but that legal protection has been
significantly eroded for users of chip cards.

So it\'s entirely rational for US cardholders to prefer mag stripe cards
unless they need to buy gas in Europe.

someone pays for all the fraud done with mag stripes,
it is as near as impossible to hack or copy a chipcard

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-08-13 19:07, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

fredag den 14. august 2020 kl. 01.00.28 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
On 2020-08-13 16:24, Martin Brown wrote:
On 13/08/2020 19:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-13 12:58, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:

Yes, we, the US, are defenders of old technologies. Many readers
still use magnetic stripes.

IIRC the banks got the consumer protection legislation loosened for
chip cards, so although chip cards help them, they\'re a net minus for
me, except for being able to use them in the rest of the world.

How so? They are intrinsically more secure devices.

There are a couple of very technical hacks possible but if they actually
should happen to you there is an excellent UK expert witness available
to demolish anything the banks might try on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19559124



I know they\'re more secure, but the insecurity of the mag stripes is the
banks\' worry, not the cardholders\', whose liability is limited to $50 no
matter what. I forget the details, but that legal protection has been
significantly eroded for users of chip cards.

So it\'s entirely rational for US cardholders to prefer mag stripe cards
unless they need to buy gas in Europe.

someone pays for all the fraud done with mag stripes,
it is as near as impossible to hack or copy a chipcard

Why do I care? The banks spent the money lobbying for the change,
certainly not for my benefit. If it blew up in their faces, too bloody
bad.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Martin Brown]

On 14/08/2020 00:07, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

fredag den 14. august 2020 kl. 01.00.28 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
On 2020-08-13 16:24, Martin Brown wrote:
On 13/08/2020 19:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-08-13 12:58, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:

Yes, we, the US, are defenders of old technologies. Many readers
still use magnetic stripes.

IIRC the banks got the consumer protection legislation loosened for
chip cards, so although chip cards help them, they\'re a net minus for
me, except for being able to use them in the rest of the world.

How so? They are intrinsically more secure devices.

There are a couple of very technical hacks possible but if they actually
should happen to you there is an excellent UK expert witness available
to demolish anything the banks might try on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19559124


I know they\'re more secure, but the insecurity of the mag stripes is the
banks\' worry, not the cardholders\', whose liability is limited to $50 no
matter what. I forget the details, but that legal protection has been
significantly eroded for users of chip cards.

So it\'s entirely rational for US cardholders to prefer mag stripe cards
unless they need to buy gas in Europe.

someone pays for all the fraud done with mag stripes,
it is as near as impossible to hack or copy a chipcard

Never say never. There are a couple of technical attacks that will work
and typically get deployed to busy garages by fake service engineers.

Any moron with a reader can skim a magnetic stripe card. Chip and PIN
requires real technical skill and a doctored terminal device.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown