OT - CRT's

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in
news:cec98ea3-64b5-422c-b222-6183c003ea23@googlegroups.com:

Any decent scope has very fine trace, revealing waveform detail
that makes any LCD screen scope look primitive.

I think that you 'looked' years ago and 'dismissed'.

They are far better now at displaying what BOTH devices have no
problem capturing.

 

[Phil Allison]

DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Phil Allison

Any decent scope has very fine trace, revealing waveform detail
that makes any LCD screen scope look primitive.


I think that you 'looked' years ago and 'dismissed'.

** FYI I have a Rigol DSO.

They are far better now at displaying what BOTH devices have no
problem capturing.

** Irrelevant bullshit.

Go fuck yourself.


..... Phil

 

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in news:0ceb138b-183f-
4d8a-9f57-fcdcb1aa55ad@googlegroups.com:

DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:


Phil Allison

Any decent scope has very fine trace, revealing waveform detail
that makes any LCD screen scope look primitive.


I think that you 'looked' years ago and 'dismissed'.



** FYI I have a Rigol DSO.

And apparently never use it.

They are far better now at displaying what BOTH devices have no
problem capturing.


** Irrelevant bullshit.

Yes, when you get like this, everything you post certainly is.
You have obviously never taken scope data and examined it on a high
resolution display. We can do that now, you know...

Go fuck yourself.

You sit and spout off about folks commiting crimes in Usenet, and
then have no problem doing it yourself.

Somebody should shove an NYPD broomstick handle about 4 feet up
your ass, you childish jackass.

You and any contribution you would claim to make here are nul and
void because you cannot keep a cap on your childish crack mentality.


Apparently you were shat out of your whore mother's childish
crack, and the stupid severely ass fucked stret slut failed to flush
you.

That stupid bitch should be put in prison.

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, May 24, 2019 at 7:19:30 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 23 May 2019 22:41:09 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com
wrote:

On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 12:00:14 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 09:38:50 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2019-05-23 09:11, John Larkin wrote:

That's another way to look at a signal, the spectrum of the jitter.
Sort of what HP used to call "modulation domain."

That is extremely hard with a DSO. Easier with analog scopes and a
darkened room.

This was assumed to be random, gaussian jitter. But with the scope
signal averaging some, and teasing the pulse rate, we can delicately
heterodyne what is actually a big periodic jitter contributor.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gunkxsfa0ujbot3/Sync_Jitter.JPG?dl=0

So, feed the Z axis of an analog scope with some of your suspect jitter
inducers, and look at X/Y plots where X = signal, Y = signal-through-a-delay-line.
and you have a fine analog sensor for that effect.

That sweep is 50 ps/div!

Phase is conserved when mixing down, so mixing against a stable oscillator will give
lower frequency data with the same percent jitter; the analog scope will display it fine.

A truly flexible X/Y display that works in realtime is hard to replace with digital.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2019-05-24, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

I have a customer who wants us to make a 3-phase 400 Hz power source
to simulate a PM alternator. I was thinking we could buy some
already-built class-D amp boards to do the power bits, say 150 watts
per channel or so. I'd rather buy than build that part.

We could use three of this eval board (we have a couple and they work
great) but they are big and have goofy connectors...

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/TPA3255EVM/296-46782-ND/7219409

so how do you make that behave like a PM altenator? I would expect
that to behave much more like a voltage source, are you putting
transformers on the output or something?

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, May 24, 2019 at 4:51:24 AM UTC-7, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

It was my understanding that CRTs ALL have magnetic field beam
deflection... in both vectors.

No, that's only for short ones with big screens. An oscilloscope that uses
a long tube, small screen, is of the electric field deflection type.

 

[Phil Allison]

DecadentLinux = fucking idiot wrote:

Phil Allison


Any decent scope has very fine trace, revealing waveform detail
that makes any LCD screen scope look primitive.


I think that you 'looked' years ago and 'dismissed'.



** FYI I have a Rigol DSO.

And apparently never use it.

** Mostly because the display is so crappy.

They are far better now at displaying what BOTH devices have no
problem capturing.


** Irrelevant bullshit.


Yes, when you get like this,

** Just telling the truth in the face of an incorrigible bullshitter and liar.

You have obviously never taken scope data and examined it on a high
resolution display.

** More irrelevant bullshit - yawnnnnnn ...

Go fuck yourself.


You sit and spout off about folks commiting crimes in Usenet,

** Yep - retarded, trolling scumbags like you for example.

and then have no problem doing it yourself.

** Not once, not ever.

Somebody should shove an NYPD broomstick handle about 4 feet up
your ass, you childish jackass.

** You need shooting.

Apparently you were shat out of your whore mother's childish
crack, and the
stupid severely ass fucked stret slut failed to flush
you.

** I think the scumbag just proved my point.



..... Phil

 

On Friday, 24 May 2019 22:55:53 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 24 May 2019 13:14:58 -0700 (PDT),

grahamholloway@graham65.plus.com wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 May 2019 12:58:13 UTC+1, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Is there still a use for CRT's?

I'm surprised that some audiophool has not come up with a product that uses it (small scope tube) as an amplifying device. I'm tempted to submit an article to a hi-fi magazine for publishing next April.

My high school science project was "The Cathode-Ray Tube as an Active
Circuit Element." I made it to the National Science Fair in Baltimore
and we got a tour of the White House. I stepped into the Oval Office.
We were scheduled to meet LBJ but he got called away at the last
minute.

I palled around with Amory Lovins in Baltimore, who is now some sort
of environmentalist guru.

Somebody made a CRT with an etched metal mask that was a ROM character
generator.

There was also a tube with an electrostatically deflected sheet beam
and two anodes, used as a balanced modulator.

And a dark trace CRT.

And radial deflection tubes used in radio altimeters.

And a companding 8-bit grey-code CRT ADC, used in the first PCM
telephone systems.

There were gas-filled CRTs where you could see the electron beam.

AIUI early CRTs used the redisual gas for focussing.

You could say the CRT was an active circuit element in early colour sets too, IIRC there were 2 different signals applied to cathodes & grids, using the tube itself to compute the correct colour outputs.


NT

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 24 May 2019 14:55:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in
<9cpgeepdhhjqstu1d9374scuhrk3vmb2cs@4ax.com>:

On Fri, 24 May 2019 13:14:58 -0700 (PDT),
grahamholloway@graham65.plus.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 21 May 2019 12:58:13 UTC+1, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Is there still a use for CRT's?

I'm surprised that some audiophool has not come up with a product that uses it (small scope tube) as an amplifying device. I'm
tempted to submit an article to a hi-fi magazine for publishing next April.

My high school science project was "The Cathode-Ray Tube as an Active
Circuit Element." I made it to the National Science Fair in Baltimore
I stepped into the Oval Office.

You should have stayed there!

;-)

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 24 May 2019 18:50:34 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Phil
Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in
<65fd6a67-3f70-4d95-a587-9279a8746cdd@googlegroups.com>:

> FYI: CRTs in scopes and TV sets both use ES focusing.

Not exactly
Old scope tubes used electrostatic focusing,
but old TV CRTs (BW) used magnetic focusing
either with permanent movable magnets or electro magnets,

Let's go back in time to BW TV, and look at the MW31-17 CRT for example:
http://www.marcelstvmuseum.com/photoalbum.html

Pic the years...
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheetsM.html

Download:
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/030/m/MW31-17.pdf

On page 2, it says in English
Focusing magnetic
the number of ampere-turns necessary for
focusing at Va2 = 7000 V is 580-720
at a distance of about 36 from the coil center to the screen ...
etc

Nice datasheet.
I have used similar tubes, even tried winding my own deflection coils back then.

And then there was the magnetic ion-trap
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_trap
also present in old BW picture tubes
https://www.thevalvepage.com/teletech/tube_rep/ion_trap.htm

There is more, but 'its early.

 

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in news:ce108c39-bb70-
417a-aa5c-914220a30a66@googlegroups.com:

Somebody should shove an NYPD broomstick handle about 4 feet up
your ass, you childish jackass.


** You need shooting.

You would lose that duel. I shoot dead bull, from the hip.

But you need to suffer. So I can get MY amusement.

Retarded punk fucks like you need to be ended in a very painful
way. Then The Lord will Judge you too.

I said nothing to you and you go off like the imature punk fuck
you are. Fuck you, Allison.

** You should hope we never meet.

 

[whit3rd]

On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 1:28:04 AM UTC-7, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

You would lose that duel. I shoot dead bull, from the hip.

Ah yes, that would explain the odor of the hips of bulls.

 

whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
news:bccab834-db7e-4469-9a60-394f01e9e39a@googlegroups.com:

On Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 1:28:04 AM UTC-7,
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:


You would lose that duel. I shoot dead bull, from the hip.

Ah yes, that would explain the odor of the hips of bulls.

Nice try, but that stupid shit falls on its face from the get go.

And you go 'round smelling bull hips... That's a tell. You sniff
their nuts too?

 

[Phil Allison]

Jan Panteltje wrote:

FYI: CRTs in scopes and TV sets both use ES focusing.

Not exactly
Old scope tubes used electrostatic focusing,
but old TV CRTs (BW) used magnetic focusing
either with permanent movable magnets or electro magnets,

** Nothing in that link backs you up.

Let's go back in time to BW TV, and look at the MW31-17 CRT for example:
http://www.marcelstvmuseum.com/photoalbum.html

Pic the years...
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheetsM.html

** Nor that one.

Download:
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/030/m/MW31-17.pdf

On page 2, it says in English
Focusing magnetic
the number of ampere-turns necessary for
focusing at Va2 = 7000 V is 580-720
at a distance of about 36 from the coil center to the screen ...
etc

** Nor that one.

Nice datasheet.
I have used similar tubes, even tried winding my own deflection coils back then.

** Deflection is NOT focussing.

And then there was the magnetic ion-trap

** Yawnnnnnnn ....


Piss off you stupid wog idiot.



..... Phil

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 25 May 2019 05:10:00 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Pill
Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote

bull

Actually I would not call a class D audio amp analog,
it is PWM, neither would I call a switchmode supply analog.
Class A and class B amplifiers yes.
A 7805 is an analog regulator,
the switch modes are switchmodes.

Trigger level check:

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 25 May 2019 05:10:00 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Phil
Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in
<583a87a1-b7eb-46e9-81a3-eae82a70bb89@googlegroups.com>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:



FYI: CRTs in scopes and TV sets both use ES focusing.

Not exactly
Old scope tubes used electrostatic focusing,
but old TV CRTs (BW) used magnetic focusing
either with permanent movable magnets or electro magnets,



** Nothing in that link backs you up.



Let's go back in time to BW TV, and look at the MW31-17 CRT for example:
http://www.marcelstvmuseum.com/photoalbum.html

Pic the years...
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheetsM.html

** Nor that one.


Download:
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/030/m/MW31-17.pdf

On page 2, it says in English
Focusing magnetic
the number of ampere-turns necessary for
focusing at Va2 = 7000 V is 580-720
at a distance of about 36 from the coil center to the screen ...
etc


** Nor that one.


Nice datasheet.
I have used similar tubes, even tried winding my own deflection coils back then.



** Deflection is NOT focussing.

At least you knwo something!

And then there was the magnetic ion-trap


** Yawnnnnnnn ....


Piss off you stupid wog idiot.

Pills is not focussing either,
do not forget those.

.... Phil

No it is spelled Pill

 

On Sat, 25 May 2019 13:20:36 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 25 May 2019 05:10:00 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Pill
Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
bull


Actually I would not call a class D audio amp analog,
it is PWM, neither would I call a switchmode supply analog.
Class A and class B amplifiers yes.
A 7805 is an analog regulator,
the switch modes are switchmodes.

Trigger level check:

Digital means that there are only a limited number of possible value,
i.e. how many "fingers" do you see (quantization).

If you have an analog audio signal, a linear ramp and a comparator to
generate PWM, where is the quantization ? Sampled, yes, but not
quantized.

OTOH, if a digital audio sample is loaded into a counter, which starts
the pulse and when the counter has counted down to zero, the pulse is
reset. The pulse width can only have a limited discrete number of
counter clock cycles, it can't have any other lengths in between. In
this case, the PWM output is both sampled as well as quantized, so you
could argue that this is a digital amplifier.

There is not so much conceptual difference with amplitude (voltage or
current) and pulse width. Both can be eider continuous (analog) or
assume only a limited number of discrete values (digital).

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 25 May 2019 18:00:53 +0300) it happened
upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
<56lieepln6he3unq1bf945e5l78gg9ks8i@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 25 May 2019 13:20:36 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 25 May 2019 05:10:00 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Pill
Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote
bull


Actually I would not call a class D audio amp analog,
it is PWM, neither would I call a switchmode supply analog.
Class A and class B amplifiers yes.
A 7805 is an analog regulator,
the switch modes are switchmodes.

Trigger level check:

Digital means that there are only a limited number of possible value,
i.e. how many "fingers" do you see (quantization).

If you have an analog audio signal, a linear ramp and a comparator to
generate PWM, where is the quantization ? Sampled, yes, but not
quantized.

OTOH, if a digital audio sample is loaded into a counter, which starts
the pulse and when the counter has counted down to zero, the pulse is
reset. The pulse width can only have a limited discrete number of
counter clock cycles, it can't have any other lengths in between. In
this case, the PWM output is both sampled as well as quantized, so you
could argue that this is a digital amplifier.

There is not so much conceptual difference with amplitude (voltage or
current) and pulse width. Both can be eider continuous (analog) or
assume only a limited number of discrete values (digital).

Agreed, but I was careful not to mention the word 'digital'.
When buying some audio amp I would sure like to know if it is class D or class B,
partly because of possible RF at the output.
I would therefore not call a PWM audio amp 'analog', although your arguing is correct.
Not sure what audiophiles would call a class D.
I bought some class D from ebay in 2015, those lasted not very long....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/141267388674
Not sure what I did wrong with it, my other linear amps just had no problem
with the same loads...

 

>** The signal storage is digital, ones and zeros representing binary >numbers derived from sampling the audio - that is what the title >refers to.

Do you mean the title "Digital" ? I missed that part.

The term is suffering. (or it will shortly)

It has been bastardised as indicated by etymology. There are ten Arabic digits, our ten fingers have ten digits. Do the math. We do not have 8, 16, 32, 64, we have ten.

So now digital means quantized to a number.

Well volts and amps are quantized to numbers. Now if you take ananalog transistor and increase the B-E current by the amount that will cause one more electron to go to the output the electron is the quantization level. Infinitesimal but still there.

In fact you can increase the base current to pass one more electron only, but that will cause more than one electron to flow through the transistor. That has got to be 1 times the hfe or HFE wherever you are on the curve - in electrons. In amperes that is 1/6.28X10^something, whatever, I don't care right now. But one ampere is still a specific quantity of electrons no matter which way you cut it.

Technically it is quantized. That means everything is. Tape, not only how many electrons go through the coils of the tape heads but also it is chopped in in a bit of a similar way as a class D amp. different but somewhat similar.

Another one, if ONE MORE photon comes out of an LED, hits a detector, that is the quantization level. In a tube (valve) if one more electron hits that plate, that is the quantization level and might really be because there is no current to the grid which means it is a charge. I am not saying you CAN control it that well, but it certainly is never happening in a current driven device.

Everything is digital if that is the new definition. But smaller and smaller bits until we get to the atomic level. And they are, it has been years since I got the Fairchilde newsletter but I remember they said they were coming out with a transistor that was only one molecule.

Where can you get if you eliminate most of thee capacitive mass of the devices and make them so small as to significantly reduce the miles of interconnects in like a uProcessor ? I think we'll see this approach used in maybe the next seven years and the speeds will go through the roof and that of course take processing power up with it. That will have to be the time when we slow down or we are going to have it like those Terminator movies.

And the faster processors will allow like old audio to be restored better than ever, or at least reproduced better than ever. And movies ? All they'll have to sell one of these days is the oldies and the only way the can do that with lobbying for the (strictest in the world) copyright laws. That applies especially to movies n shit. They are already doing wonders with the old shit, and I don't mean colorizing them, fuck that. I mean taking and using a good gamma correction properly to restore a real grey scale to this stuff. But new stuff ? People will make it in their basements on MACs that cost all of two days pay. At least in the US people are going to have such good systems in their mansions n there will be no theatres, or even DVD rentals. Their era is almost over like newspapers.

I hijack too much, later.

 

[Phil Allison]

Jan Panteltje Wog Moron wrote:

Actually I would not call a class D audio amp analog,

** But analoge is exactly what it is.

it is PWM,

** Which is varied proportionally and infinitesimally to match an analogue signal.

Bout as analogue as you can get.



..... Phil