orbital shells and energy levels

[Tom Del Rosso]

High school and undergrad physics teaches that electrons change energy
levels when they emit or absorb a photon.

They also cover orbital shells (moreso in chem than physics).

But they never draw a connection at that level of study.

So is there a connection? Are orbital energy levels related to shells?

I don't expect the answer is that an electron would jump to an outer shell
and leave an inner one less than full. But still, it seems likely there is
a relationship between these things that is not covered in the 101-102
courses.


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[Tim Wescott]

On Wed, 09 May 2012 23:09:10 -0400, Tom Del Rosso wrote:

High school and undergrad physics teaches that electrons change energy
levels when they emit or absorb a photon.

They also cover orbital shells (moreso in chem than physics).

But they never draw a connection at that level of study.

So is there a connection? Are orbital energy levels related to shells?

I don't expect the answer is that an electron would jump to an outer
shell and leave an inner one less than full. But still, it seems likely
there is a relationship between these things that is not covered in the
101-102 courses.

Have you Googled?

As far as I know they are, indeed, connected -- all of the orbitals are
available for an electron to go into even in a hydrogen atom, but the S1
orbital is the lowest-energy one, so that's where an unexcited electron
goes. Presumably an excited electron goes to another orbital, until it
can emit a photon.

It's all complicated by the fact that the orbital size and energy changes
under the electrostatic influence of the nucleus and the surrounding
electrons.

And -- that's about where my already-foggy knowledge just peters out.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

Tim Wescott wrote:

Have you Googled?

I've googled enough questions to know that isn't always the best way to find
an answer.

As far as I know they are, indeed, connected -- all of the orbitals
are available for an electron to go into even in a hydrogen atom, but
the S1 orbital is the lowest-energy one, so that's where an unexcited
electron goes. Presumably an excited electron goes to another
orbital, until it can emit a photon.

It's all complicated by the fact that the orbital size and energy
changes under the electrostatic influence of the nucleus and the
surrounding electrons.

And -- that's about where my already-foggy knowledge just peters out.

Bonding just got even more complicated.

Thanks!


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[glen herrmannsfeldt]

In sci.physics.electromag Tom Del Rosso <td_03@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:

High school and undergrad physics teaches that electrons change energy
levels when they emit or absorb a photon.

They also cover orbital shells (moreso in chem than physics).

They also cover orbital shells (moreso in chem than physics).

But they never draw a connection at that level of study.

So is there a connection? Are orbital energy levels related
to shells?

At some point, quantum mechanics doesn't allow for answers to
questions like that. The photon energy comes from the change
in electron energy.

If you are asking about s, p, d, f, orbitals, those are different
angular momentum states, and the complications of the energy relate
to the interaction between electrons. You are allowed to ask about
that, though the answers aren't so easy.

I don't expect the answer is that an electron would jump to
an outer shell and leave an inner one less than full.

It will when it absorbs a photon, or otherwise gets more energy.

One interesting process is the Auger effect. If you knock out
an inner shell electron, usually K shell. Another falls into
its place, but instead of emitting a photon it instead knocks
another electron out. The energy of that electron is related to
the three levels involved, and has a fairly well defined energy.
(That is, narrow line width.)

But still, it seems likely there is a relationship between these
things that is not covered in the 101-102 courses.

-- glen

 

[Jos Bergervoet]

On 5/10/2012 5:09 AM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:

High school and undergrad physics teaches that electrons change energy
levels when they emit or absorb a photon.

They also cover orbital shells (moreso in chem than physics).

But they never draw a connection at that level of study.

So is there a connection? Are orbital energy levels related to shells?

I think you are wrong. High school physics teaches that
the lower shells are the first to be filled. "Lowest" then
means lowest in energy. So energy levels are actually mentioned.

I don't expect the answer is that an electron would jump to an outer shell
and leave an inner one less than full.

Why not? If it absorbs a photon (as in your first sentence)
they could nicely jump to an outer shell (or completely out
of the atom!)

But still, it seems likely there is
a relationship between these things that is not covered in the 101-102
courses.

It is likely indeed that not everything is covered in there..

--
Jos

 

[Tim Wescott]

On Thu, 10 May 2012 06:50:02 +0000, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:

In sci.physics.electromag Tom Del Rosso <td_03@verizon.net.invalid
wrote:

High school and undergrad physics teaches that electrons change energy
levels when they emit or absorb a photon.

They also cover orbital shells (moreso in chem than physics).

They also cover orbital shells (moreso in chem than physics).

But they never draw a connection at that level of study.

So is there a connection? Are orbital energy levels related to shells?

At some point, quantum mechanics doesn't allow for answers to questions
like that. The photon energy comes from the change in electron energy.

If you are asking about s, p, d, f, orbitals, those are different
angular momentum states, and the complications of the energy relate to
the interaction between electrons. You are allowed to ask about that,
though the answers aren't so easy.

I don't expect the answer is that an electron would jump to an outer
shell and leave an inner one less than full.

It will when it absorbs a photon, or otherwise gets more energy.

One interesting process is the Auger effect. If you knock out an inner
shell electron, usually K shell. Another falls into its place, but
instead of emitting a photon it instead knocks another electron out. The
energy of that electron is related to the three levels involved, and has
a fairly well defined energy. (That is, narrow line width.)

A factoid that has stuck with me for decades is that in the X-ray lasers
that we were so noisily building in the 1980's to sucker the Russians
into bankrupting themselves, the laser action came from an electron in an
inner shell falling into _another_ inner shell. I can't remember what
element it was that was involved, but I do remember it was middling heavy
(copper?).

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

 

[Jamie]

George Herold wrote:

On May 9, 11:09 pm, "Tom Del Rosso" <td...@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:

High school and undergrad physics teaches that electrons change energy
levels when they emit or absorb a photon.

They also cover orbital shells (moreso in chem than physics).

But they never draw a connection at that level of study.

So is there a connection? Are orbital energy levels related to shells?

I don't expect the answer is that an electron would jump to an outer shell
and leave an inner one less than full. But still, it seems likely there is
a relationship between these things that is not covered in the 101-102
courses.


Well the orbital part, like planetary orbits, is only an analogy. For
the one case that we can solve exactly (one proton and one electron.)
the solution is in terms of spherical harmonics (SH). And rather than
an electron going around in an orbit, I picture it smeared out with a
probability distribution given by the particular SH.

But apart from that your picture is fine. Transitions between states
are accompanied by the absorption or emission of a photon. Thanks to
Phil H. I’ve just been reading about this. Google (Fermi quantum
theory of radiation) and you should find a link to his 1932 reviews of
modern physics paper at colorado.edu.

Sounds very close to what was taught to me in school almost 40 years

ago now, on this very same subject. I must of had some good lab
instructors

www.colorado.edu/physics/phys7550/phys7550.../Fermi32_RMP.pdf
(That might work.)

You won’t want to read the whole thing (44 some pages) but you might
get something out of the introduction and fundamental concepts
sections.

George H.