Op-Amp Problem

M

Mike

Guest
Hi,

I'm using an LM358 op-amp to amplify a signal. The signal is AC and has a
peak-to-peak value of 5mV. The op-amp is setup to to amplify the signal by
500 (using a 1M resistor and a 2K resistor). However, the output of the
op-amp is only amplified by a factor of 10 (not 500). If I change the 2K
resistor to a 1K resistor I would expect the op-amp's output to double, but
it doesn't, it just stays the same. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?
The op-amp is powered from a +5V and -5V supply. The frequency of the
signal is around 35KHz.

Thanks for any help.
 
"Mike" <mike@mike.com> wrote in message
news:cejast$1d1$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
Hi,

I'm using an LM358 op-amp to amplify a signal. The signal is AC and
has a
peak-to-peak value of 5mV. The op-amp is setup to to amplify the
signal by
500 (using a 1M resistor and a 2K resistor). However, the output of
the
op-amp is only amplified by a factor of 10 (not 500). If I change
the 2K
resistor to a 1K resistor I would expect the op-amp's output to
double, but
it doesn't, it just stays the same. Does anyone know what I'm doing
wrong?
The op-amp is powered from a +5V and -5V supply. The frequency of
the
signal is around 35KHz.

Thanks for any help.
Click to expand...
Look at the 'open loop frequency response' of the datasheet given
here:

http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM158.pdf

You note that the open loop gain at 35kHz is less than 40dB, which
means its less than 100. Op-amps are internally compensated to do
this, so they don't oscillate. Thats the most gain you can get at a
particular frequency with this opamp.

Using a negative feedback scheme like you are using, the open-loop
gain should be much higher than the final gain, or there will be
distortion. Thus, if the open loop gain is 100, your target gain
should be more like 10.

Regards,
Bob Monsen
 
Subject: Op-Amp Problem
From: "Mike" mike@mike.com
Date: 8/1/2004 12:56 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: <cejast$1d1$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk

Hi,

I'm using an LM358 op-amp to amplify a signal. The signal is AC and has a
peak-to-peak value of 5mV. The op-amp is setup to to amplify the signal by
500 (using a 1M resistor and a 2K resistor). However, the output of the
op-amp is only amplified by a factor of 10 (not 500). If I change the 2K
resistor to a 1K resistor I would expect the op-amp's output to double, but
it doesn't, it just stays the same. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?
The op-amp is powered from a +5V and -5V supply. The frequency of the
signal is around 35KHz.

Thanks for any help
Click to expand...
Hi, Mike. An op amp is a gain block whose total open loop gain is dependent on
several factors, including the built-in compensation capacitor on the op amp
die. Because of that, if you set up a circuit like this with an LM358 (view in
fixed font or M$ notepad):

Open Loop Gain
Input Signal |\|
o---------|+\ Output Signal
| >-------o
.---|-/
| |/|
|
===
GND

created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.24.140803 Beta www.tech-chat.de

and you apply a small amplitude signal at 1 MHz, the output will have a gain of
about 1. If you apply a small signal at 100 KHz, the gain will be about 10.
If you apply a small signal at 10 KHz, the gain will be about 100. This
product of gain and bandwidth for an open-loop op amp will be the same for any
given frequency, and is called the gain-bandwidth product. For an LM358, the
gain-bandwidth product is 1 MHz, which means you can't expect more than a gain
of 30 at 35 KHz, no matter what feedback resistors you use. As a practical
matter, the theory of negative feedback you're using to set gain requires
excess gain (minimum of 20 dB or at least 10 times), so you actually can't set
it up for 35 KHz with more than a gain of 3 and expect to get any fidelity in
amplification (your distortion will be too great). So, even using both op amps
of the LM358, you can't really expect to get more than a gain of 10 at 35 KHz
(gain of 3.2 * gain of 3.2). So your voltage gain of 10 means you've actually
got an overachiever for an op amp. GBW product is specified min./typ., not
max.

If you can find a faster dual op amp (GBW >= 10MHz), you can set it up so each
op amp has a gain of 22, which will give you a total gain of 500. At that
gain, you'll also be concerned about noise amplification from different sources
(such as your resistors and the op amp itself), so choose a low noise op amp
and try to stay away from those megohm resistors. Also try to do a good job on
power supply bypassing -- with a gain of 500, power supply noise will become a
factor. Try something like this:

35KHz Gain of 500
___ ___
.--|___|--. .--|___|---.
35KHz | 22K | | 22K |
Input Signal| | | |
___ | |\| | | |
o--|___|- o---|-\ | ___ | |\ |
1K | >--o--|___|--o--|-\ |Output Signal
-|+/ 1K | >----o------o
|/| -|+/
|/
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.24.140803 Beta www.tech-chat.de

Good luck
Chris
 
On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:56:37 +0100, "Mike" <mike@mike.com> wrote:

Hi,

I'm using an LM358 op-amp to amplify a signal. The signal is AC and has a
peak-to-peak value of 5mV. The op-amp is setup to to amplify the signal by
500 (using a 1M resistor and a 2K resistor). However, the output of the
op-amp is only amplified by a factor of 10 (not 500). If I change the 2K
resistor to a 1K resistor I would expect the op-amp's output to double, but
it doesn't, it just stays the same. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?
The op-amp is powered from a +5V and -5V supply. The frequency of the
signal is around 35KHz.

Thanks for any help.
Click to expand...
That amp is out of gain-bandwidth. Flat out, with no feedback at all,
its gain at 35K is only about 30. You need an amp with a lot more
gain-bandwidth product, or you can cascade two or three stages of
lower gain/stage.

A single gain stage, even with a hotter amplifier, will suffer from
parasitic capacitance across such a big feedback resistor. The
several-stage thing is a cleaner way to get a lot of gain.

John
 
Mike wrote:
Hi,

I'm using an LM358 op-amp to amplify a signal. The signal is AC and has a
peak-to-peak value of 5mV. The op-amp is setup to to amplify the signal by
500 (using a 1M resistor and a 2K resistor). However, the output of the
op-amp is only amplified by a factor of 10 (not 500). If I change the 2K
resistor to a 1K resistor I would expect the op-amp's output to double, but
it doesn't, it just stays the same. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?
The op-amp is powered from a +5V and -5V supply. The frequency of the
signal is around 35KHz.

Thanks for any help.
Click to expand...

--
John Popelish
 
Mike <mike@mike.com> wrote in message
news:cejast$1d1$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
Hi,

I'm using an LM358 op-amp to amplify a signal. The signal is AC and has a
peak-to-peak value of 5mV. The op-amp is setup to to amplify the signal
by
500 (using a 1M resistor and a 2K resistor). However, the output of the
op-amp is only amplified by a factor of 10 (not 500). If I change the 2K
resistor to a 1K resistor I would expect the op-amp's output to double,
but
it doesn't, it just stays the same. Does anyone know what I'm doing
wrong?
The op-amp is powered from a +5V and -5V supply. The frequency of the
signal is around 35KHz.

Thanks for any help.
Click to expand...
Come what may, should be getting more than X10 out. Are you sure you haven't
got a massive DC offset at the op-amp output?.
 
Mike wrote:
Hi,

I'm using an LM358 op-amp to amplify a signal. The signal is AC and has a
peak-to-peak value of 5mV. The op-amp is setup to to amplify the signal by
500 (using a 1M resistor and a 2K resistor). However, the output of the
op-amp is only amplified by a factor of 10 (not 500). If I change the 2K
resistor to a 1K resistor I would expect the op-amp's output to double, but
it doesn't, it just stays the same. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong?
The op-amp is powered from a +5V and -5V supply. The frequency of the
signal is around 35KHz.

Thanks for any help.
Click to expand...
You have two problems. The first is that the LM358 has a gain
bandwidth product of about 500,000. Divide that by 35,000 and you get
a gain of about 14 or so. Include negative feedback, and you get
less. You could use several stages with gain of less than 10, each,
and arrive at a total gain of 500, but then the second problem shows
up. 500 gain would turn 5 millivolts into 2.5 volts, but assuming
these are peak to peak values much less than RMS) this implies an
output rate of change of about .35 volts per microsecond, max. The
LM358 slews at no more than .5 volts per microsecond, so you are very
close to having the last opamp not being able to swing its output fast
enough to keep up with the signal. If the 5 millivolt input is an RMS
value, you are in big trouble.

To achieve this 500 gain with a single opamp, it should have a gain
bandwidth product about 10*500*35,000=175MHz. Such a beast can be
quite difficult to get working correctly without a good layout and
some experience or luck.

I would probably go with a dual opamp that had a gain bandwidth
product of about 7 to 10 MHz, each. Each amplifier would have a gain
of about 22. This is based on needing the square root of 500 gain in
each stage for a GBP of 10*sqrt(500)*35000=7.8MHz. An LM6132,
perhaps. Its slew rate of about 8 volts per microsecond is also much
more capable of keeping up with the demands of the 2.5 volt output
signal.

http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM6132.pdf

--
John Popelish
 
On 01 Aug 2004 19:21:17 GMT, CFoley1064 wrote:

<snip>
If you can find a faster dual op amp (GBW >= 10MHz), you can set it up so each
op amp has a gain of 22, which will give you a total gain of 500. At that
gain, you'll also be concerned about noise amplification from different sources
(such as your resistors and the op amp itself), so choose a low noise op amp
and try to stay away from those megohm resistors. Also try to do a good job on
power supply bypassing -- with a gain of 500, power supply noise will become a
factor. Try something like this:

snip
Click to expand...

And since these buggers have high input impedance, keep the
conductor length going into the inputs as short as possible (some
apps require guard rings) or you'll also pick up more noise.
--
Click to expand...
Best Regards,
Mike
 
The op-amp is setup to to amplify the signal by
500 (using a 1M resistor and a 2K resistor). However, the output of the
op-amp is only amplified by a factor of 10 (not 500).
Click to expand...
The 2k and 1k resistor are loading down the high impedance output of your
signal source. You need 2 gain stages... first one needs to be non inverting
(and hi impedance) with gain of 10 or 20, 2nd stage can make up the rest of the
gain.
 
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