Only one EV charger at home?!...

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:46:35 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2023 19:33, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

But you do have to go to the gas station and not just park up on your

And take a book to read.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:46:35 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-18 00:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:05:40 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:54, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 08:45:27 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2023 00:31, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 22:59:54 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 22:53, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 22:02:52 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 21:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:32:36 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 20:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which
means
they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged
in. In
this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both
cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in
other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF? A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks. 240V, 100A. Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to
what you
can draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your
contract
with the electricity supply company specifies you can have..

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

I didn\'t work in the Commercial section, which was responsible
for
the
meter and company fuses, so I don\'t know whether there was a
limiter. As
the standing charges were based upon the contracted supply, I
assume
there must have been some way to enforce it.

There isn\'t.

That is a mere assumption on your part.

We\'re talking about domestic premises. Funnily enough I have a
domestic
premises.

Which does not qualify you to say what is or is not inside the
electricity meter.

Yes it does, since I have observed it. I know it only logs usage..
Pre-smart meters, the only output was a number, how many units used
since it was installed.

So, you have only looked at the outside and not checked whether it is
fitted with any sort of internal overload cut-out. The rating of this
meter as 40A max implies that there should be something of the sort, as
other meters have different maximum ratings:

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-domestic-electricity-meter-bawdsey-suffolk-uk-22334841.html?imageid=B767388E-A7C4-4A6B-8B82-FC0CF940F3D2&p=71517&pn=1&searchId=28437009718bb087080c91e08fe24b06&searchtype=0

Actually I do know what\'s inside my old meter, as I got to keep it when
the smart meter replaced it. The current sensor was just measuring
voltage across a shunt. Nothing would have prevented that taking a huge
current.

I doubt they\'d put an overload cutout inside a meter, as there\'s the
main fuse protecting it anyway. More hassle for them to open up the
meter and reset it, than just replace the master fuse.

Smart meters are smart. They don\'t need to open them to reset them.

Smart meters are very recent. I was talking about the ones before then.


Non-smart meters do not have a limiter inside.

which are the ones I was referring to. By the time smart meters were installed, the concept of limiting isn\'t a thing.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:47:56 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-18 00:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:08:37 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:41, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:54:02 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 10:18, Martin Brown wrote:
On 16/04/2023 22:02, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 21:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:32:36 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
On 16/04/2023 20:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which
means they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in.. In
this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both
cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in
other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF? A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply..

Bollocks. 240V, 100A. Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to
what you
can draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your
contract
with the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

I didn\'t work in the Commercial section, which was responsible for
the
meter and company fuses, so I don\'t know whether there was a
limiter. As
the standing charges were based upon the contracted supply, I
assume
there must have been some way to enforce it.

There isn\'t.

That is a mere assumption on your part.

The meters only monitor how much you\'ve used, not how fast you were
using it.

They want you to use more, so they make more money!

\'They\' don\'t want anybody to exceed the capacity of the incomer.

The incomers in even quite old houses from the 1970\'s are typically
good
for 100A though they are like mine often fused at 60A or 80A. Our
VH has
exactly the same cabling and 100A on each of the two available phases.

I expect just like with he 13A fuse in practice the nominal 100A fuse
will pass a considerably higher current for a while before it fails.

My meter limits to 10A. This is an ancient contract, and the meter is
modern, so in actual fact it can not limit under 15A. Design fault..

However, there is an external fuse on the external house wall, which I
think is 60A, and that is a hard limit. It can not have a big margin
because the company wires will not take the current and will melt the
insulation.

I don\'t understand how you can live with 10A. Are you in a tent? No
dishwasher, washing machine, kettle, microwave, computer, lights, etc?

Well, I have all of that, except that the kettle is plain, not electric,
and the dishwasher has been broken for decades.

My dishwasher and washing machine both use 2-3kW. That would be a bit
of a problem in your house.

Not really. When it was working, we put it on then went to sleep. All
the house was off except the machine.

But only one of them. And not a quiet sleep.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:49:16 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-18 00:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:10:31 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:44, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:56:29 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-16 21:43, Commander Kinsey wrote:
3.6kW ROTFPMSL! In the UK a kettle takes almost that. I wasn\'t aware
you lived in the third world.

We just don\'t drink tea

Microwave? Or are you still using flames to heat?

We drink coffee.

Heated by?

Me, I can choose gas or induction. Or I can use the Nespreso machine.

An induction hob using all the house\'s power at once.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:51:52 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2023 21:17, Michael Chare wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which means they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF? A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks. 240V, 100A. Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you
can draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your contract
with the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

And two 7s still fit in 17.

Not with a great deal to spare for other uses.

My house just has a 60 amp fuse so no more than 15kW. Just as well that
I have no intention of acquiring an electric car.

We only have one because we need two cars, my wife is disabled and so
gets a much cheaper lease, and the other car is petrol and so can do
just the odd local journey, infrequent long journeys and towing. Leaving
the electric car for almost all journeys.

The supply cable runs
underneath the solid floors of the house according to the details I was
given when I bought it.

The supply cable may be fine. Mine was a 60A fused supply, but as soon
as I upgraded from a fusebox to a modern consumer unit, the supplier
uprated the main fuse to 100A - there was no need for a supply cable
upgrade.

No need for that modern shit, just have two fuseboxes.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:53:22 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-18 00:27, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:13:22 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:44, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:57:12 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-16 21:52, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:02:27 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which means
they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In
this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF? A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks. 240V, 100A. Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you
can
draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your contract
with
the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

For instance, in Spain the smart meter triggers if you draw above
your
contract and switches off the whole house. In older times, there
was an
electromagnetic current limiter switch, installed with an anti tamper
lead seal, which of course, was tampered with. Which is a reason they
installed smart meters in the whole country real fast.

The typical contract here for a flat is 3.6 KW. I think the max is
around 15 or 18.

Just how do you plan to charge an electric car?

Obviously, by contracting a charge point.

What do you mean contracting? Installing it in ouyr property and
getting them to change all the wiring? Or paying a neighbour?

You call the electricity company and ask them to install a charging
point in your garage. Install new or change anything necessary.

That would cost a fortune considering they have to lay new cable.

It will cost me £100 for the socket and a fiver for some cable.

Less than the car.

After buying an electric car you won\'t have much left to pay for an electrician. I can\'t beleive people actually pay someone to do something as simple as fitting a charger.

The typical flat here can not charge an EV without a
new contract and installation, anyway. For one reason, 4 KW is not
enough, and for another the garage is underground, the flat is not. You
are not going to run a thick cable from level 5 to level -2...

Why not? And it won\'t be thick for 7kW.

Actually you can get 3kW chargers. Just don\'t run the dishwasher at the same time.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:30:44 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 19:33:49 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

It\'s the car making him do it, not the station.

On my Audi, the automation opens the little trap door over the gas
filler when I push a button.

Maybe there\'s a phone ap that does that?

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:46:35 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk>
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 19:33, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

But you do have to go to the gas station and not just park up on your
driveway at the end of the day.

I park on the street.

Two gas stations are close to home and I can wash the windows while
the tank fills up; all that takes about 4 minutes. I never have to
wait for a pump to be available.

On a long trip, I don\'t even think about planning ranges or charge
stops overlapping meals or whatever, or whether I can drive at some
speed or run the heater. All that seems to amuse some people.

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 17:35:44 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
....

The typical flat here can not charge an EV without a
new contract and installation, anyway. For one reason, 4 KW is not
enough, and for another the garage is underground, the flat is not. You
are not going to run a thick cable from level 5 to level -2...
Why not? And it won\'t be thick for 7kW.

Actually you can get 3kW chargers. Just don\'t run the dishwasher at the same time.

The charger is internal to the car.

The external module in the cable, that is often referred to a a charger, is a safety and control device that communicates with the internal charger to enable charging when the connection is safely made, to give information about the maximum current available and also provide a GFCI function. It is referred to as an EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment).

The actual charging current is determined by the car and it will never attempt to demand more than the EVSE informs it as being allowable but it may take much less as determined by the charging algorithm or manual override.

The great majority of cars use the SAE J1772 standard (https://en.wikipedia..org/wiki/SAE_J1772) for the connector and EVSE protocol (Tesla does use a simple adapter to match the connectors in the US although their own protocol is virtually the same). There are variations of the connector for use in Europe, US and China.

The protocol uses a very crude PWM signal to indicate the allowable current from 6A to 80A.

kw

 

[Bob F]

On 4/17/2023 6:15 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:46:35 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 19:33, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

But you do have to go to the gas station and not just park up on your
driveway at the end of the day.

I park on the street.

Two gas stations are close to home and I can wash the windows while
the tank fills up; all that takes about 4 minutes. I never have to
wait for a pump to be available.

On a long trip, I don\'t even think about planning ranges or charge
stops overlapping meals or whatever, or whether I can drive at some
speed or run the heater. All that seems to amuse some people.

You are SUCH a MAN!

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 02:15:23 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:46:35 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 19:33, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

But you do have to go to the gas station and not just park up on your
driveway at the end of the day.

I park on the street.

People here park on the street and just run a cable over the pavement.

Two gas stations are close to home and I can wash the windows while
the tank fills up; all that takes about 4 minutes. I never have to
wait for a pump to be available.

If you\'re talking about a petrol pump and not an electric charger, WTF are you doing leaving it filling unattended? That\'s how this shit happens: https://media1.fdncms.com/orlando/imager/u/original/2826553/16832059_1350121135027085_3513683467753433350_n.jpg

And 4 minutes? What are you doing, filling up a lorry? I fill my 50 litre petrol tank in one minute. Tell your garage to get faster pumps.

On a long trip, I don\'t even think about planning ranges or charge
stops overlapping meals or whatever, or whether I can drive at some
speed or run the heater. All that seems to amuse some people.

A decent electric car goes over 200 miles, and tells you where a charging station is. And you can always add another battery pack.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 02:08:47 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:30:44 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 19:33:49 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

It\'s the car making him do it, not the station.

On my Audi, the automation opens the little trap door over the gas
filler when I push a button.

Maybe there\'s a phone ap that does that?

Try it when the car is locked.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 00:11:22 +0100, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2023 23:46, SteveW wrote:
On 17/04/2023 19:33, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer
periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a
cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW
electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to
take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed
supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered
by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current
again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey
this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over
charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car
and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see
tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially
since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed
period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

But you do have to go to the gas station and not just park up on your
driveway at the end of the day.

I pass at least one filling station on virtually every journey, so it
isn\'t going out of may way.

The cheap gas station here is not on my way.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 19:59:00 -0700, Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:

On 4/17/2023 6:15 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:46:35 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 19:33, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

But you do have to go to the gas station and not just park up on your
driveway at the end of the day.

I park on the street.

Two gas stations are close to home and I can wash the windows while
the tank fills up; all that takes about 4 minutes. I never have to
wait for a pump to be available.

On a long trip, I don\'t even think about planning ranges or charge
stops overlapping meals or whatever, or whether I can drive at some
speed or run the heater. All that seems to amuse some people.


You are SUCH a MAN!

Yes, I do have a Y chromosone.

And a 3.2 liter V6!

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 04:14:32 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 02:15:23 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:46:35 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 19:33, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

But you do have to go to the gas station and not just park up on your
driveway at the end of the day.

I park on the street.

People here park on the street and just run a cable over the pavement.

I\'m lucky that I can usually park in front of my house, but that\'s not
guaranteed.

On street cleaning days, I park on another street. Envision a 500 foot
charging cable.

Two gas stations are close to home and I can wash the windows while
the tank fills up; all that takes about 4 minutes. I never have to
wait for a pump to be available.

If you\'re talking about a petrol pump and not an electric charger, WTF are you doing leaving it filling unattended? That\'s how this shit happens: https://media1.fdncms.com/orlando/imager/u/original/2826553/16832059_1350121135027085_3513683467753433350_n.jpg

Somehow I\'ve never done that. Electric car owners are the ones who
leave their cars unattended while they charge, because it takes so
long.

And 4 minutes? What are you doing, filling up a lorry? I fill my 50 litre petrol tank in one minute. Tell your garage to get faster pumps.

I like to wash and squeegee and wipe down my windows while the tank is
filling. That\'s what takes about 4 minutes about every two weeks,
unless I drive up into the mountains. It takes about 3/4 of a tank to
get to Truckee but only 1/2 to get back.

On a long trip, I don\'t even think about planning ranges or charge
stops overlapping meals or whatever, or whether I can drive at some
speed or run the heater. All that seems to amuse some people.

A decent electric car goes over 200 miles, and tells you where a charging station is. And you can always add another battery pack.

No thanks. I have enough hobbies.

 

[alan_m]

On 17/04/2023 09:18, Martin Brown wrote:

The local network cables rely on load diversity which can be a source of
trouble when everyone puts the kettle on at half time on a Wembley final
day. It may well spell problems for fast charging cars overnight too
when they become more common.

Modern charges are meant to have a randomised start and end time
facility (of, I believe 10 minutes) so the likelihood of them all
switching at the same time along a street is minimised. It is well known
that humans, when programming timers, say, for central heating, the
majority will set a time on the exact hour, quarter or half hour.


Balancing the network loads when a large number of people are charging
is possibly the reason that is is recommended that charging is limited
to 7.4kW in a domestic property with a single phase supply.

The seals were never a problem. Having the right impression on them was.

That wouldn\'t be very difficult to fake if you were so inclined.

The seals on my fuse is blank and this was from the meter change.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[Rod Speed]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:46:35 +1000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk>
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 19:33, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer periods
of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a
cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of
the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW
electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to
take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed
supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered
by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back
the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current
again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey
this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over
charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car and
plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything
is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see
tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially since
the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon
them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if
I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed
period.
Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

But you do have to go to the gas station and not just park up on your
driveway at the end of the day.

But you do that much less frequently than daily except on a long trip.

 

[Tim+]

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked),

Are you sure about that? I’d had my car for two years before realising that
the actual flap isn’t part of the central locking system.

which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state.

Every time? I just have mine set to charge for the same four hours every
night. No fiddling with apps involved.

If I’m charging away from home I just press the schedule override button
inside the charging flap to start charging immediately (on AC). On DC it
sensibly just ignores any set schedule.

Tim



--
Please don\'t feed the trolls

 

[Peeler]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 00:05:40 +0200, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain
dead troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:

> Smart meters are smart. They don\'t need to open them to reset them.

A dumb troll-feeding senile spick like you shouldn\'t even mention a word
like \"smart\"!

 

[Peeler]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 00:46:35 +0200, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain
dead troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:


> Non-smart meters do not have a limiter inside.

Smart people don\'t feed an abysmally stupid troll like that Scottish wanker,
you dumb spick!