Only one EV charger at home?!...

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-17 19:50, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:48:00 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 09:51, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 20:06, Martin Brown wrote:

...

A wet string area, as it was known to the engineers when I worked in the
industry, implying that the overhead wires might as well be wet string
for all their capacity. However, in the days when the only electricity
uses in the home were lighting (probably a single 40W* bulb in each
room) and a radio, 40A was more than generous.

*When he came back from the war my father upgraded the 25W light bulbs
my mother had installed to 40W. For somebody used to oil lamps, 25W was
bright enough.

Now that you mention this, it is very true. I recognize that trait in my
late father.

I would go into the dining room, switching all the 8 bulbs (probably 25W
each), and he would come and switch half of them off and growl at me
(the lamp had a double switch, so 4 or 8 bulbs).

Now I have the same ceiling lamp with the biggest CFLs/LEDs I could find
at the time, for that lamp thread (E14).

I hate lamps, they\'re point sources and cause shadows.  I always use
strip lights.  The LED ones are really light, you just screw two clips
into the ceiling, even if it\'s just plasterboard, and clip them up.
They will plug into each other, so you only need to wire up one.

Once we visited my mother village, a place that had no running water on
the houses. They had electricity, but no meters. The company charged a
fixed amount per number of bulbs in the house. There were no sockets.
Year 1969 or thereabouts.

My neighbour where I used to live had an old house in a village of 1000
people where most houses were newer, where everyone else had running
water.  He refused to have it installed, as he had a well and a pump.
Free water.

Oh, yes, water was free. You went to the river or the fountain to
collect it. With a horse or a donkey if you were rich.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:15:39 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:42, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:59:15 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 11:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/04/2023 20:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which means
they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF? A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks. 240V, 100A. Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you
can draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your contract
with the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

A large fuse upstream.

And usually a main house circuit breaker,


The typical contract here for a flat is 3.6 KW. I think the max is
around 15 or 18.

Its colder in Britain.


Oh, a house with electrical heating will have a bigger contract.
Possibly three-phase.

Air conditioning? Surely you use one or the other?

Me? Yes, on one of the rooms.

Yes, you certainly can have separate electrical house heating and air
conditioning.

At 3.6kW total, the AC would be using at least half that!

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:13:22 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:44, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:57:12 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-16 21:52, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:02:27 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which means
they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF? A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks. 240V, 100A. Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you
can
draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your contract with
the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

For instance, in Spain the smart meter triggers if you draw above your
contract and switches off the whole house. In older times, there was an
electromagnetic current limiter switch, installed with an anti tamper
lead seal, which of course, was tampered with. Which is a reason they
installed smart meters in the whole country real fast.

The typical contract here for a flat is 3.6 KW. I think the max is
around 15 or 18.

Just how do you plan to charge an electric car?

Obviously, by contracting a charge point.

What do you mean contracting? Installing it in ouyr property and
getting them to change all the wiring? Or paying a neighbour?

You call the electricity company and ask them to install a charging
point in your garage. Install new or change anything necessary.

That would cost a fortune considering they have to lay new cable.

It will cost me £100 for the socket and a fiver for some cable.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:10:31 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:44, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:56:29 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-16 21:43, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:02:27 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which means
they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF? A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks. 240V, 100A. Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you
can
draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your contract with
the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

For instance, in Spain the smart meter triggers if you draw above your
contract and switches off the whole house. In older times, there was an
electromagnetic current limiter switch, installed with an anti tamper
lead seal, which of course, was tampered with. Which is a reason they
installed smart meters in the whole country real fast.

The typical contract here for a flat is 3.6 KW. I think the max is
around 15 or 18.

3.6kW ROTFPMSL! In the UK a kettle takes almost that. I wasn\'t aware
you lived in the third world.

We just don\'t drink tea

Microwave? Or are you still using flames to heat?

We drink coffee.

Heated by?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:08:37 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:41, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:54:02 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 10:18, Martin Brown wrote:
On 16/04/2023 22:02, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 21:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:32:36 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
On 16/04/2023 20:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which
means they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In
this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both
cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF? A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks. 240V, 100A. Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you
can draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your
contract
with the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

I didn\'t work in the Commercial section, which was responsible for
the
meter and company fuses, so I don\'t know whether there was a
limiter. As
the standing charges were based upon the contracted supply, I assume
there must have been some way to enforce it.

There isn\'t.

That is a mere assumption on your part.

The meters only monitor how much you\'ve used, not how fast you were
using it.

They want you to use more, so they make more money!

\'They\' don\'t want anybody to exceed the capacity of the incomer.

The incomers in even quite old houses from the 1970\'s are typically good
for 100A though they are like mine often fused at 60A or 80A. Our VH has
exactly the same cabling and 100A on each of the two available phases.

I expect just like with he 13A fuse in practice the nominal 100A fuse
will pass a considerably higher current for a while before it fails..

My meter limits to 10A. This is an ancient contract, and the meter is
modern, so in actual fact it can not limit under 15A. Design fault.

However, there is an external fuse on the external house wall, which I
think is 60A, and that is a hard limit. It can not have a big margin
because the company wires will not take the current and will melt the
insulation.

I don\'t understand how you can live with 10A. Are you in a tent? No
dishwasher, washing machine, kettle, microwave, computer, lights, etc?

Well, I have all of that, except that the kettle is plain, not electric,
and the dishwasher has been broken for decades.

My dishwasher and washing machine both use 2-3kW. That would be a bit of a problem in your house.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:05:40 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:54, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 08:45:27 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2023 00:31, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 22:59:54 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 22:53, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 22:02:52 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 21:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:32:36 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 20:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which
means
they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in.. In
this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both
cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in
other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF? A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply..

Bollocks. 240V, 100A. Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to
what you
can draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your
contract
with the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

I didn\'t work in the Commercial section, which was responsible for
the
meter and company fuses, so I don\'t know whether there was a
limiter. As
the standing charges were based upon the contracted supply, I
assume
there must have been some way to enforce it.

There isn\'t.

That is a mere assumption on your part.

We\'re talking about domestic premises. Funnily enough I have a
domestic
premises.

Which does not qualify you to say what is or is not inside the
electricity meter.

Yes it does, since I have observed it. I know it only logs usage.
Pre-smart meters, the only output was a number, how many units used
since it was installed.

So, you have only looked at the outside and not checked whether it is
fitted with any sort of internal overload cut-out. The rating of this
meter as 40A max implies that there should be something of the sort, as
other meters have different maximum ratings:

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-domestic-electricity-meter-bawdsey-suffolk-uk-22334841.html?imageid=B767388E-A7C4-4A6B-8B82-FC0CF940F3D2&p=71517&pn=1&searchId=28437009718bb087080c91e08fe24b06&searchtype=0

Actually I do know what\'s inside my old meter, as I got to keep it when
the smart meter replaced it. The current sensor was just measuring
voltage across a shunt. Nothing would have prevented that taking a huge
current.

I doubt they\'d put an overload cutout inside a meter, as there\'s the
main fuse protecting it anyway. More hassle for them to open up the
meter and reset it, than just replace the master fuse.

Smart meters are smart. They don\'t need to open them to reset them.

Smart meters are very recent. I was talking about the ones before then.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 21:17:27 +0100, Michael Chare <mUNDERSCOREnews@charedotorg.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 19:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which means they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF? A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks. 240V, 100A. Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you can
draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your contract with
the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

And two 7s still fit in 17.

Not with a great deal to spare for other uses.

My house just has a 60 amp fuse so no more than 15kW. Just as well that
I have no intention of acquiring an electric car. The supply cable runs
underneath the solid floors of the house according to the details I was
given when I bought it.

If the wire is thick enough, just stick a 100A fuse in it. They\'re a tenner on Ebay.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 19:33:49 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

It\'s the car making him do it, not the station.

 

[SteveW]

On 17/04/2023 18:29, Theo wrote:

In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

I think an electrician will only put one without current sensing if your
installation meets the usual diversity calculation. eg if the charger is
32A it\'s assumed to be running continuously at that current. That leaves
68A for the rest of the installation on a 100A feed. It\'s also possible to
configure the charger at installation time to only supply eg 25A if that\'s
all remaining after diversity.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

Agreed, \'apps\' are a car crash of interoperability. They all want to corral
you into their little walled garden where you can\'t do very much.
Thankfully there are also APIs that allow platforms to communicate, although
remains to be seen how long these stay working.

Personally I wouldn\'t buy anything without local control. But then I\'m
resigned to running a Home Assistant instance to glue it all together.

Unfortunately, it\'s just what we got - we weren\'t buying, as the car is
leased and the charger fitted for free. Fortunately the lease is at a
much lower rate than a normal lease, as it is through Motability. If it
was at full rate, we\'d have been buying a second-hand petrol car.

 

[SteveW]

On 17/04/2023 19:33, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

But you do have to go to the gas station and not just park up on your
driveway at the end of the day.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-18 00:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:05:40 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:54, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 08:45:27 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2023 00:31, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 22:59:54 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 22:53, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 22:02:52 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 21:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:32:36 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 20:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which
means
they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged
in. In
this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both
cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in
other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF?  A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks.  240V, 100A.  Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to
what you
can draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your
contract
with the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

I didn\'t work in the Commercial section, which was responsible
for
the
meter and company fuses, so I don\'t know whether there was a
limiter. As
the standing charges were based upon the contracted supply, I
assume
there must have been some way to enforce it.

There isn\'t.

That is a mere assumption on your part.

We\'re talking about domestic premises.  Funnily enough I have a
domestic
premises.

Which does not qualify you to say what is or is not inside the
electricity meter.

Yes it does, since I have observed it.  I know it only logs usage.
Pre-smart meters, the only output was a number, how many units used
since it was installed.

So, you have only looked at the outside and not checked whether it is
fitted with any sort of internal overload cut-out. The rating of this
meter as 40A max implies that there should be something of the sort, as
other meters have different maximum ratings:

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-domestic-electricity-meter-bawdsey-suffolk-uk-22334841.html?imageid=B767388E-A7C4-4A6B-8B82-FC0CF940F3D2&p=71517&pn=1&searchId=28437009718bb087080c91e08fe24b06&searchtype=0

Actually I do know what\'s inside my old meter, as I got to keep it when
the smart meter replaced it.  The current sensor was just measuring
voltage across a shunt.  Nothing would have prevented that taking a huge
current.

I doubt they\'d put an overload cutout inside a meter, as there\'s the
main fuse protecting it anyway.  More hassle for them to open up the
meter and reset it, than just replace the master fuse.

Smart meters are smart. They don\'t need to open them to reset them.

Smart meters are very recent.  I was talking about the ones before then.

Non-smart meters do not have a limiter inside.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-18 00:27, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:15:39 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-04-17 19:42, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:59:15 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 11:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/04/2023 20:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which means
they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In
this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF?  A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks.  240V, 100A.  Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you
can draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your
contract
with the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

A large fuse upstream.

And usually a main house circuit breaker,


The typical contract here for a flat is 3.6 KW. I think the max is
around 15 or 18.

Its colder in Britain.


Oh, a house with electrical heating will have a bigger contract.
Possibly three-phase.

Air conditioning?  Surely you use one or the other?

Me? Yes, on one of the rooms.

Yes, you certainly can have separate electrical house heating and air
conditioning.

At 3.6kW total, the AC would be using at least half that!

So?

If you want more, pay more and get it.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-18 00:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:08:37 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:41, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:54:02 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 10:18, Martin Brown wrote:
On 16/04/2023 22:02, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 21:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:32:36 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
On 16/04/2023 20:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which
means they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In
this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both
cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in
other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF?  A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks.  240V, 100A.  Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to
what you
can draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your
contract
with the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

I didn\'t work in the Commercial section, which was responsible for
the
meter and company fuses, so I don\'t know whether there was a
limiter. As
the standing charges were based upon the contracted supply, I
assume
there must have been some way to enforce it.

There isn\'t.

That is a mere assumption on your part.

The meters only monitor how much you\'ve used, not how fast you were
using it.

They want you to use more, so they make more money!

\'They\' don\'t want anybody to exceed the capacity of the incomer.

The incomers in even quite old houses from the 1970\'s are typically
good
for 100A though they are like mine often fused at 60A or 80A. Our
VH has
exactly the same cabling and 100A on each of the two available phases.

I expect just like with he 13A fuse in practice the nominal 100A fuse
will pass a considerably higher current for a while before it fails.

My meter limits to 10A. This is an ancient contract, and the meter is
modern, so in actual fact it can not limit under 15A. Design fault.

However, there is an external fuse on the external house wall, which I
think is 60A, and that is a hard limit. It can not have a big margin
because the company wires will not take the current and will melt the
insulation.

I don\'t understand how you can live with 10A.  Are you in a tent?  No
dishwasher, washing machine, kettle, microwave, computer, lights, etc?

Well, I have all of that, except that the kettle is plain, not electric,
and the dishwasher has been broken for decades.

My dishwasher and washing machine both use 2-3kW.  That would be a bit
of a problem in your house.

Not really. When it was working, we put it on then went to sleep. All
the house was off except the machine.
--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[SteveW]

On 17/04/2023 21:17, Michael Chare wrote:

On 16/04/2023 19:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which means they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF?  A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks.  240V, 100A.  Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you
can draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your contract
with the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

And two 7s still fit in 17.

Not with a great deal to spare for other uses.

My house just has a 60 amp fuse so no more than 15kW.  Just as well that
I have no intention of acquiring an electric car.

We only have one because we need two cars, my wife is disabled and so
gets a much cheaper lease, and the other car is petrol and so can do
just the odd local journey, infrequent long journeys and towing. Leaving
the electric car for almost all journeys.

The supply cable runs
underneath the solid floors of the house according to the details I was
given when I bought it.

The supply cable may be fine. Mine was a 60A fused supply, but as soon
as I upgraded from a fusebox to a modern consumer unit, the supplier
uprated the main fuse to 100A - there was no need for a supply cable
upgrade.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-18 00:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:10:31 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:44, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:56:29 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-16 21:43, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:02:27 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which means
they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In
this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF?  A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks.  240V, 100A.  Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you
can
draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your contract
with
the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

For instance, in Spain the smart meter triggers if you draw above
your
contract and switches off the whole house. In older times, there
was an
electromagnetic current limiter switch, installed with an anti tamper
lead seal, which of course, was tampered with. Which is a reason they
installed smart meters in the whole country real fast.

The typical contract here for a flat is 3.6 KW. I think the max is
around 15 or 18.

3.6kW ROTFPMSL!  In the UK a kettle takes almost that.  I wasn\'t aware
you lived in the third world.

We just don\'t drink tea

Microwave?  Or are you still using flames to heat?

We drink coffee.

Heated by?

Me, I can choose gas or induction. Or I can use the Nespreso machine.
--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-18 00:27, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:13:22 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 19:44, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:57:12 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-16 21:52, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:02:27 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which means
they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In
this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF?  A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks.  240V, 100A.  Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you
can
draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your contract
with
the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

For instance, in Spain the smart meter triggers if you draw above
your
contract and switches off the whole house. In older times, there
was an
electromagnetic current limiter switch, installed with an anti tamper
lead seal, which of course, was tampered with. Which is a reason they
installed smart meters in the whole country real fast.

The typical contract here for a flat is 3.6 KW. I think the max is
around 15 or 18.

Just how do you plan to charge an electric car?

Obviously, by contracting a charge point.

What do you mean contracting?  Installing it in ouyr property and
getting them to change all the wiring?  Or paying a neighbour?

You call the electricity company and ask them to install a charging
point in your garage. Install new or change anything necessary.

That would cost a fortune considering they have to lay new cable.

It will cost me £100 for the socket and a fiver for some cable.

Less than the car. The typical flat here can not charge an EV without a
new contract and installation, anyway. For one reason, 4 KW is not
enough, and for another the garage is underground, the flat is not. You
are not going to run a thick cable from level 5 to level -2...

No, as I don\'t have an EV myself I do not know the exact details.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Colin Bignell]

On 17/04/2023 23:46, SteveW wrote:

On 17/04/2023 19:33, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer
periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a
cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW
electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to
take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed
supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered
by the
property.  If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current
again.  If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey
this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over
charger
2.  That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car
and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem.  I expect we\'ll start to see
tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially
since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed
period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

But you do have to go to the gas station and not just park up on your
driveway at the end of the day.

I pass at least one filling station on virtually every journey, so it
isn\'t going out of may way.


--
Colin Bignell

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 02:25:37 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-16 22:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 20:32:36 +0100, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
On 16/04/2023 20:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
For instance, in Spain the smart meter triggers if you draw above your
contract and switches off the whole house. In older times, there was an
electromagnetic current limiter switch, installed with an anti tamper
lead seal, which of course, was tampered with. Which is a reason they
installed smart meters in the whole country real fast.

In theory, the meter reader was supposed to check the lead seals on
every visit, but it wasn\'t often done in practice unless the property
was flagged as needing particular attention.

You can buy lead seals on Ebay.

We did not touch the seals, we rewired the cables in the back, where
they are not visible.

!!!!!

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:45:14 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-18 00:27, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:15:39 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-04-17 19:42, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:59:15 +0100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-17 11:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/04/2023 20:02, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-16 20:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which means
they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In
this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other
words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF? A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks. 240V, 100A. Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you
can draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your
contract
with the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

Do you have some kind of hardware enforcing the limit?

A large fuse upstream.

And usually a main house circuit breaker,


The typical contract here for a flat is 3.6 KW. I think the max is
around 15 or 18.

Its colder in Britain.


Oh, a house with electrical heating will have a bigger contract.
Possibly three-phase.

Air conditioning? Surely you use one or the other?

Me? Yes, on one of the rooms.

Yes, you certainly can have separate electrical house heating and air
conditioning.

At 3.6kW total, the AC would be using at least half that!

So?

If you want more, pay more and get it.

The whole idea of a house running on what the rest of the world uses as an extension cord is absurd. Are you sure you don\'t live in Ethiopia?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:45:41 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2023 18:29, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

I think an electrician will only put one without current sensing if your
installation meets the usual diversity calculation. eg if the charger is
32A it\'s assumed to be running continuously at that current. That leaves
68A for the rest of the installation on a 100A feed. It\'s also possible to
configure the charger at installation time to only supply eg 25A if that\'s
all remaining after diversity.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

Agreed, \'apps\' are a car crash of interoperability. They all want to corral
you into their little walled garden where you can\'t do very much.
Thankfully there are also APIs that allow platforms to communicate, although
remains to be seen how long these stay working.

Personally I wouldn\'t buy anything without local control. But then I\'m
resigned to running a Home Assistant instance to glue it all together.

Unfortunately, it\'s just what we got - we weren\'t buying, as the car is
leased and the charger fitted for free. Fortunately the lease is at a
much lower rate than a normal lease, as it is through Motability. If it
was at full rate, we\'d have been buying a second-hand petrol car.

I saw a decent 2nd hand electric car for only 5 grand the other day. Perhaps the higher electric prices are putting people off?