Only one EV charger at home?!...

[Ricky]

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 4:17:37 PM UTC-4, Michael Chare wrote:

On 16/04/2023 19:44, Colin Bignell wrote:
On 16/04/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 18:18:20 +0100, Colin Bignell
c...@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:

On 16/04/2023 08:34, Commander Kinsey wrote:
https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/features/do-you-need-two-home-charge-points-if-you-have-two-evs/

\"Some products will have the ability to “load share”, which means they
will communicate with each if two vehicles are plugged in. In this
scenario, they will evenly split the power available so both cars
charge
at the same rate, but this will be at around 3-3.6kW – in other words
half of the available 7.4kW from the supply.\"

WTF? A UK home supply is 24kW.

The most common UK domestic contract is for a 17kVA supply.

Bollocks. 240V, 100A. Never seen anything else.

There are also 80A and 60A main breakers, but the limit to what you can
draw is not what the circuit is rated for, but what your contract with
the electricity supply company specifies you can have.

And two 7s still fit in 17.

Not with a great deal to spare for other uses.

My house just has a 60 amp fuse so no more than 15kW. Just as well that
I have no intention of acquiring an electric car. The supply cable runs
underneath the solid floors of the house according to the details I was
given when I bought it.

Why would you need a larger feed to charge a car? A car will charge quite well on the same outlet you connect your tea kettle.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 7:11:39 PM UTC-4, Colin Bignell wrote:

On 17/04/2023 23:46, SteveW wrote:
On 17/04/2023 19:33, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:50:00 +0100, SteveW <st...@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 17/04/2023 10:19, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s the problem. The 100A (or lower) supply is based on the
assumption of relatively short duration peak load and longer
periods of
partial load, not long, large, continuous loads.

Car chargers run for many hours at a time, so two or three of those,
plus washing machine and tumble dryer (moved to night time for a
cheaper
tariff), electric heaters, immersion heater and the possibility of the
electric oven and hob (according to my son, it\'s not unusual for
households with students to be baking cakes at 4am, after the
night-club!), plus someone getting up early and using the 10kW
electric
shower and you have a load that the supply cable was never meant to
take
continuously, plus a higher than normal peak to an already stressed
supply.

EV chargers can be configured to sense the total load being offered
by the
property. If the supply is 100A then the charger can throttle back the
current being taken by the car so it stays within the 100A envelope.
Somebody turns on the 50A electric shower, the car drops down to a low
current, once the shower is finished the car ramps up the current
again. If
there are multiple chargers they can be configured not just to obey
this,
but to cooperate in sharing the load: eg charger 1 has priority over
charger
2. That arrangement saves going outside at 3am to unplug one car
and plug
in another.

So there isn\'t a problem of busting your supply, assuming everything is
installed right.

My charger has no current sensing. It can operate co-operatively, but
only if your other charger(s) are the same make and model.

As well as that, if every house has something along those lines, the
entire street supply will be over-stretched.

That I agree is more of a problem. I expect we\'ll start to see
tariffs that
encourage load shedding at times of high local demand (eg cooperation
between local cars to stagger their charging times), especially
since the
miles people do in the average day might only require a few hours of
charging. Such already exist for national demand.

The trouble is that we are getting more and more away from simply plug
and charge, needing to use multiple apps for car, charger and
electricity provider, possibly with 3rd party apps and relying upon them
all working together smoothly.

I already find it a minor irritation that, on getting home, I have to
get out of the car, without locking it (or the charge flap will also be
locked), which leaves lights, radio and dash on; plug in; then lock the
car; then use the charger app to set charging and the car\'s own app if I
want to monitor charge state. That\'s before we introduce a 3rd app to
allow the car to charge at lower demand times, rather than a fixed
period.

Gas stations don\'t make me do all that. I can even go inside and pay
cash.

But you do have to go to the gas station and not just park up on your
driveway at the end of the day.
I pass at least one filling station on virtually every journey, so it
isn\'t going out of may way.

Yes, that\'s today. The problem many people have, is accepting that as EVs become more and more popular, there will be fewer and fewer gas stations. Many just can\'t grasp the idea that something as \"fundamental\" to our lives, will change.

I remember thinking that cell phones would always be limited in use. The phone in my kitchen works just fine! Now, I curse the damn things every day..

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 2:32:22 AM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 16:09:01 +1000, The Natural Philosopher
t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 18/04/2023 22:29, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-18 18:49, Scott Lurndal wrote:
John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> writes:
On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 05:32:35 -0400, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid
wrote:

What\'s interesting about the city cars, is the pricing, rather
than the capabilities. It shows how much effect that impact
resistance
and endless bullshit safety features have on vehicles. It\'s an
attempt
at an end-run around regulation. And it\'s the only style I know of,
where people are experimenting with battery packs you can take in
the house.

Yikes. Battery packs catch fire.

So do gas powered vehicles, at a much higher rate per 1000 vehicles.

(0.3% for ev, 1.05% for gas cars).
Yeah. Don\'t buy an American gasoline car, they explode every time they
crash.
Seen on the movies PPP

At least gas cars don\'t generally go up in flames sitting in your drive
switched off.
Some do. A mate\'s Merc did that in his carport and
damned near took the entire house with it. No one was
home at the time and by a pure fluke someone who was
driving past noticed and called the fire brigade just in time.

These events are rare for both EV and ICE cars. But EVs are new, so every aspect of them ends up under a microscope.

There\'s a reason why your home insurance costs goes *down* when you convert your attached garage into living space.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 10:19:55 AM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 05:28:00 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 03:22:33 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:40:29 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

I think there are states where you still can\'t fill yourself, and an
employee does it for you.

The liberal side of Oregon... I forget the exact number but if a county
has fewer than X people, you can pump your own. Those counties, of
course,
happen to be in eastern Oregon. Unless they can sneak into Idaho some
dark night and leave the libs to their own hell.

American is so far behind. Why employ someone to do something as simple
as pump gas?

There are two states out of fifty that require attendants. The Oregon law
was passed in 1951 when attendants were usual. The left wing government
running the state believes, possibly with justification, that the citizens
are too dumb for the task.

You mean, the left wing government, duly elected by the voting citizens? Yes, that left wing government.

What a putz. Anything you don\'t agree with is evil, eh?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 10:47:43 AM UTC-4, Sam E wrote:

On 4/18/23 16:29, Carlos E.R. wrote:

[snip]
Yeah. Don\'t buy an American gasoline car, they explode every time they
crash.

Seen on the movies PPP
Mythbusters tested that. In order to get the car to explode, they had to
put a bomb in it.

That\'s true. Gasoline doesn\'t explode very easily. It does burn like crazy and if spilled, runs all over the place. That\'s why you can\'t put out a gasoline fire with water. The gas just floats on top and spreads all over the place, all the while burning and setting other things on fire. A gas car fire needs foam to put it out.

There\'s some irony that people think lithium-ion battery fires are hard to put out, when you only need to douse them with water! It couldn\'t be more simple.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 4:55:27 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 1:43:03 PM UTC-7, Bob F wrote:
On 4/19/2023 12:54 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Then the brakes must be \"by wire\", so that the car decides to apply them
or not. Makes me a bit uneasy.
Are there real modern cars (except Russian) that are not \"by wire\"? Non-powered brakes?

Two errors here. One is the idea that there can be no automatic application of brakes without the brakes being \"by wire\". The other is thinking that power brakes have to be \"by wire\". Neither is true. Power brakes are power \"assist\". Even if the \"assist\" stops working, stepping on the brake pedal gives manual brakes, which simply require more pressure.

Likewise, other sources can apply the brakes in a car while the driver\'s connection is still mechanical.

I suspect that there is a range of pedal motion that works that way, and
an always apply friction brakes range beyond that. But maybe not.
On-board BMS estimates how much power can be pumped back to the battery. Beyond that, use friction brakes.

Yeah, I\'ve paid careful attention and when under autopilot control, it still uses the brake pedal to some extent. The thing often waits longer that I would, before slowing, so must apply more braking than the regeneration can apply. I\'m not certain that\'s the issue though. I can see how much regeneration is being applied, and often, it\'s not the full capacity, when I can feel the brake pedal being applied.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 5:18:13 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 April 2023 at 13:55:27 UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
...

Then the brakes must be \"by wire\", so that the car decides to apply them
or not. Makes me a bit uneasy.
Are there real modern cars (except Russian) that are not \"by wire\"? Non-powered brakes?
I suspect that there is a range of pedal motion that works that way, and
an always apply friction brakes range beyond that. But maybe not.
On-board BMS estimates how much power can be pumped back to the battery.. Beyond that, use friction brakes.
Varies with car - Tesla is unusual in not using blended brakes. The brake pedal does not control regeneration. It is completely controlled by the throttle pedal.

Why would anyone want regeneration to be controlled by the brake pedal. I can run my car up and down in the speed range to 10 mph, without touching the brake. Who wants to keep moving their foot between two pedals? In the models 3 and Y it will bring the car to a stop! (different motors)


> Getting good brake feel is difficult with blended brakes - Toyota struggled for years to do it.

Blending regeneration and acceleration in one pedal works great on the Teslas. It\'s one of my favorite things about the Tesla. I wish I had one in Puerto Rico.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 9:50:00 PM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:

On 4/19/2023 4:07 PM, SteveW wrote:
On 19/04/2023 14:07, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-04-19 14:12, Theo wrote:
That\'s called \'one pedal driving\', and on many EVs you can adjust the
retardation (regen) in a number of steps from coasting through to quite
aggressive braking. Coasting is more like a regular transmission
where you
have to use the brake pedal, whereas with higher levels you can
drive with
accelerator alone.

By \"regular transmission\" you mean \"automatic\"?

Most cars here have a manual transmission, and on those the (gasoline)
car brakes somewhat when the accelerator pedal is released. We use that
to maintain the speed when going down long slopes, instead of using the
brake. If we need more brake action, we shift to a lower gear.

Both. With a manual transmission you get some degree of engine
braking, but
you coast if you open the clutch. Without actively changing down gear
the
amount of engine braking is not massive - if you purely let off the
accelerator doing 70mph on a flat road in top gear you don\'t get very
much
retardation.

It is possible to change down for more, but the engine isn\'t happy
about it
unless you match revs first, so in general it\'s easier to use the brakes.

Engine braking is not something you\'d do around town or on a regular
motorway unless you\'re in a hilly area, so most people don\'t use it very
often.

Many of us were taught to change down through the gears and use engine
braking for almost all stops, including around town. These days they
tend to rely on brakes and just change down to whatever gear they expect
to need as the set off or speed up again.

A motorcycle shop owner once told me \"brakes are a lot cheaper than
engine repair\".

Which means diddly squat.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 6:00:52 AM UTC-4, Theo wrote:

In uk.d-i-y SteveW <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
Many of us were taught to change down through the gears and use engine
braking for almost all stops, including around town. These days they
tend to rely on brakes and just change down to whatever gear they expect
to need as the set off or speed up again.

Presumably you\'re still using the brakes though? eg if you\'re driving at
speed on the motorway and the tail lights come on in front of you, you\'re
not reaching for the gear stick to change down instead of braking?

Wouldn\'t that depend on how much the car in front is slowing? I don\'t hit the brakes every time I see a brake light. But then, I follow far enough from the cars in front of me, so I seldom need to brake hard.

In the Tesla, there\'s a control to set the following distance. I have it at max, which seems to be about 2 seconds, which is the recommendation.

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 8:12:38 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:

On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 4:40:57 AM UTC-7, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 22:55, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 1:43:03 PM UTC-7, Bob F wrote:
On 4/19/2023 12:54 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 17:45, Bob F wrote:
On 4/19/2023 5:36 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 14:12, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
Interesting.

How does it work, you foot the brake pedal, and the car decides
whether
to apply the actual brakes or generator mode?

In general yes. The car will decide whether to use regen or friction
brakes. For example mostly regen if the battery can take it, but at
low
speeds friction might be used for the last few mph down to zero
where regen
is weak. Also in an emergency stop both might be used.

What happens when you release the accelerator pedal? Does it just
coast
along, or does it apply \"engine brake\" as in a gasoline car?

That\'s called \'one pedal driving\', and on many EVs you can adjust the
retardation (regen) in a number of steps from coasting through to quite
aggressive braking. Coasting is more like a regular transmission
where you
have to use the brake pedal, whereas with higher levels you can
drive with
accelerator alone.

By \"regular transmission\" you mean \"automatic\"?

Most cars here have a manual transmission, and on those the
(gasoline) car brakes somewhat when the accelerator pedal is
released. We use that to maintain the speed when going down long
slopes, instead of using the brake. If we need more brake action, we
shift to a lower gear.


Obviously, with an electric car, you would make a simple adjustment to
your driving style to accommodate the small difference. Especially
since using the brake pedal will recharge your battery for free.

Of course, that\'s the advantage of electrics. I just wondered how they
arranged the controls.

Then the brakes must be \"by wire\", so that the car decides to apply them
or not. Makes me a bit uneasy.

Are there real modern cars (except Russian) that are not \"by wire\"? Non-powered brakes?

My Opel Corsa. Braking is assisted, not by wire, AFAIK.


I suspect that there is a range of pedal motion that works that way, and
an always apply friction brakes range beyond that. But maybe not.

On-board BMS estimates how much power can be pumped back to the battery. Beyond that, use friction brakes.

Ok, but physically, how does that work?
Digitally, the voltage/current are controlled by the BMS based on State of Health/Charge (SOH/SOC). However, it is not optimized with the same motor.. The traction motor is designed to work under the battery voltage. In theory, we want regen voltage to be over the battery voltage.

I get around 2 miles/KWh round-trip over 150ft elevation vs. 3 mi/KWh on level land. So, down slope brake/regen may be 50% efficient. There is room for improvement. I am thinking about adding a fifth wheel regenerating alternator.

There is something wrong with your car. Your car is probably close to half the weight of my car and I get 3 mi/kWh, sometimes 3.5 mi/kWh. On days when I\'m on roads that aren\'t 70 mph, I\'ve gotten as high as 4 mi/kWh.

I can\'t wait to see photos of your little car with a bicycle wheel hanging off the rear! LOL

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 6:51:48 AM UTC-4, Theo wrote:

In uk.d-i-y SteveW <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
On 20/04/2023 11:00, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y SteveW <st...@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
Many of us were taught to change down through the gears and use engine
braking for almost all stops, including around town. These days they
tend to rely on brakes and just change down to whatever gear they expect
to need as the set off or speed up again.

Presumably you\'re still using the brakes though? eg if you\'re driving at
speed on the motorway and the tail lights come on in front of you, you\'re
not reaching for the gear stick to change down instead of braking?

It depends upon the situation. If you spot a problem early enough, you
lift off the accelerator and let the car slow with engine braking,
changing down as the revs drop to a level suitable to do so.

I would think of that as coasting. OK it\'s not coasting in the sense of
opening the clutch so the wheels are free to turn undriven, but the engine
is not applying very much retardation force. For example, on the motorway
going downhill in top gear, the car still gathers speed even if you let off
the accelerator. Not as much as if you opened the clutch, but it still
wouldn\'t decrease your speed. Whereas a sufficient application of the
brakes would.

In that situation, you\'d get more engine braking if you changed down (it
would try to rev the engine faster) but it wouldn\'t be good for the engine.

Really? What car are you driving that engine braking is harmful to the engine? I want to avoid anything made by that company.

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[rbowman]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 10:11:40 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 17/07/2023 05:07, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 03:14:10 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Toyota is cheap shit. My VW 1998 and Renault 2002 have MPG.

I don\'t think there\'s been a Renault in the US since the Alliance in
the \'80s.
USA, like the EU, is a protectionist trading bloc. It taxes imports of
European cars, so the cheaper ones are not worth importing.

A lot of it was the \'safety\' or EPA requirements. Renault, Peugeot, and
Citroen always were very minor players so the market wasn\'t worth the
effort.

 

[rbowman]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 09:09:02 -0400, Paul wrote:

There aren\'t too many regulations on bicycles.

Maybe Renault could make bicycles ???

Peugeot did okay in the US for a while. For people of my generation
Renault is associated with the Dauphine, not a good pairing.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 19:26:40 +0100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

On 17/07/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jun 2023 08:57:53 +0100, jon <jon@nospam.cn> wrote:

I drove a 1936 Standard 14 once, all the car brakes had leading shoes, so
when I shot backwards during a 3 point turn and braked nothing happened
and I collided with a parked car.

This page says that shouldn\'t happen:
https://allthedifferences.com/difference-between-leading-trailing-brake-shoes/

No it doesn\'t. It is comparing the effect of the individual shoes.
\"Leading and trailing brake shoes are as capable of stopping the reverse
motion as they are of stopping forward motion.\" This means brakes with
one of each. Leading shoes \"dig\" in to the drum and so have more braking
effect. jon was referring to brakes where they are all leading (when the
car is travelling forward) In the reverse direction they will be all
trailing. (I think the original Mini had twin leading shoes on the front
brakes. I don\'t know whether this was a problem reversing as the rear
brakes were leading/trailing).

Having every single one one way round seems insane, so you can hardly stop in reverse? How did that pass the safety requirements?

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 2:24:35 PM UTC-4, nib wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jun 2023 10:26:26 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 6/4/2023 3:00 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message <op.15zhd...@ryzen.home>, Commander Kinsey
C...@nospam.com> writes
On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 00:07:18 +0100, SteveW <st...@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 19/04/2023 14:07, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-04-19 14:12, Theo wrote:
That\'s called \'one pedal driving\', and on many EVs you can adjust
the retardation (regen) in a number of steps from coasting through
to quite aggressive braking. Coasting is more like a regular
transmission where you have to use the brake pedal, whereas with
higher levels you can drive with accelerator alone.

By \"regular transmission\" you mean \"automatic\"?

Most cars here have a manual transmission, and on those the
(gasoline)
car brakes somewhat when the accelerator pedal is released. We use
that to maintain the speed when going down long slopes, instead of
using the brake. If we need more brake action, we shift to a lower
gear.

Both. With a manual transmission you get some degree of engine
braking, but you coast if you open the clutch. Without actively
changing down gear the amount of engine braking is not massive - if
you purely let off the accelerator doing 70mph on a flat road in top
gear you don\'t get very much retardation.

It is possible to change down for more, but the engine isn\'t happy
about it unless you match revs first, so in general it\'s easier to
use the brakes.

Engine braking is not something you\'d do around town or on a regular
motorway unless you\'re in a hilly area, so most people don\'t use it
very often.

Many of us were taught to change down through the gears and use
engine braking for almost all stops, including around town.

I was, in 1997. I stopped doing that as soon as I passed the test.
Braking is much more controllable. Engine braking is all or nothing,
completely unsuitable for gracefully changing speed.

That\'s only because you don\'t know how to do it properly.

Think about the erson behind you seeing a car lurching about with no
brakelights.

They soon learn not to drive too close to you.

These days they tend to rely on brakes and just change down to
whatever gear they expect to need as the set off or speed up again.

A much more sensible idea.

The best idea is to compromise with a sensible mixture of gear-changing
and braking.

After I used engine braking as I stopped at his motorcycle shop, the
owner told me that brake shoes were way cheaper than engine,
transmission and clutch repairs.
It\'s all old-hat anyway. The cars of the future, and a lot of them now,
use regenerative braking. Which is another new skill to learn.

\"Skill\"? You press on the accelerator to go faster, you press on it less to slow down. Didn\'t you already know that???

When I got my Tesla, they seemed to have a \"partial\" mode. I asked how to engage that for a couple of weeks to get used to it, before I used the full Monty. The saleswoman reacted a bit strongly, saying I shouldn\'t do that as it\'s an important feature of the car. So I didn\'t, and two days later I was used to it.

What does take some getting used to, is not having the regenerative braking if you charge close to 100%. So I don\'t do that. It\'s also a bit more wear on the battery.

Mine may be a bit elderly, but the level of regen available depends on
battery temperature and level of charge. Ideal for energy use
minimisation is to not use the brake pedal at all except to hold when
stopped, which means slowing down earlier when it\'s cold or you are
starting out with a full battery.

I don\'t recall a loss of regeneration in the cold. I think it has to be pretty severe cold. Just getting down to freezing doesn\'t make so much of an impact, from my recollection.

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 5:05:54 AM UTC-4, NY wrote:

\"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.153lt...@ryzen.home...
Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine off
for a minute.
I think the energy saving (or lack of it!) is not the only reason for using
start/stop. It also saves cars sitting in queues of traffic (eg at lights)
with their engines giving out exhaust fumes while the engine is idling. So
it\'s partly an anti-pollution thing.

I wonder how long the engine has to be turned off and then restarted, for it
to produce less exhaust / use less fuel than leaving the engine idling.
Bearing in mind the energy used by the battery to restart the engine, and
the fuel needed to replace this energy in the battery.

My Kia has a real time mileage readout. I remember filling the tank and starting through light city traffic. Every time I stopped at a light, I could see the mileage drop as it idled. So, clearly there is a mileage impact, a noticeable one.

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Monday, 17 July 2023 at 11:26:48 UTC-7, Max Demian wrote:

On 17/07/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jun 2023 08:57:53 +0100, jon <j...@nospam.cn> wrote:

I drove a 1936 Standard 14 once, all the car brakes had leading shoes, so
when I shot backwards during a 3 point turn and braked nothing happened
and I collided with a parked car.

This page says that shouldn\'t happen:
https://allthedifferences.com/difference-between-leading-trailing-brake-shoes/
No it doesn\'t. It is comparing the effect of the individual shoes.
\"Leading and trailing brake shoes are as capable of stopping the reverse
motion as they are of stopping forward motion.\" This means brakes with
one of each. Leading shoes \"dig\" in to the drum and so have more braking
effect. jon was referring to brakes where they are all leading (when the
car is travelling forward) In the reverse direction they will be all
trailing. (I think the original Mini had twin leading shoes on the front
brakes. I don\'t know whether this was a problem reversing as the rear
brakes were leading/trailing).

--
Max Demian

A very common arrangement for British cars in the fifties and sixties was drum brakes with two leading shoes at the front and one leading, one trailing at the back.

There were two hydraulic cylinders in each of the front wheels, one operating each shoe with a single cylinder at the back operating both shoes. At the other end of the rear shoes was the handbrake actuator

kw

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 5:20:03 AM UTC-4, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/06/2023 09:59, NY wrote:
\"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.153lt...@ryzen.home...

Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine
off for a minute.

I think the energy saving (or lack of it!) is not the only reason for
using start/stop. It also saves cars sitting in queues of traffic (eg at
lights) with their engines giving out exhaust fumes while the engine is
idling. So it\'s partly an anti-pollution thing.

I wonder how long the engine has to be turned off and then restarted,
for it to produce less exhaust / use less fuel than leaving the engine
idling. Bearing in mind the energy used by the battery to restart the
engine, and the fuel needed to replace this energy in the battery.
Doesn\'t take a lot to start an engine. Less than a second at about 200A,
so 2.4kW seconds.

Or about 0.6 watt hours. Working on 10KWh per litre of fuel, very
roughly, that\'s around, 0.06cc of fuel equivalent to restart the car.

Sources suggest an idling car engine uses \'up to 2 litres per hour\' so
lets say an average of one litre per hour.

How long does it take to use 0.06cc? = 0.06 x 3.6 seconds. about 0.2
seconds.

Which suggests that given a decent warm fast starting engine it is
ALWAYS worth while cutting the engine when halted.

The downside is that it may not restart, or take time to do it. Not
having the engine running in a hybrid situation is what gives them great
fuel economy in urban situations, along with regenerative braking.

I was in a friend\'s car with the auto cut-off at lights. It worked very well, with the restart being almost unnoticed. There was no real delay unless you are the lead car in the line and even then, it\'s no more than your reaction time, so in the noise. I\'m sorry my car doesn\'t have that.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 8:35:37 PM UTC-4, Rod Speed wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 21:31:13 +1000, devnull <dev...@alt.home.repair
wrote:

On 6/6/2023 7:22 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/06/2023 11:56, me wrote:
On 6/5/2023 11:40 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:


Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine
off for a minute.

The money you might save on gas you\'ll spend replacing the starter
motor.
As usual kinsey is exactly wrong, as are you


The more you use the starter, the sooner it will wear out.
Bullshit

What an impressive technical analysis. Thank you.

--

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Bob F]

On 7/17/2023 11:26 AM, Max Demian wrote:

On 17/07/2023 19:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jun 2023 08:57:53 +0100, jon <jon@nospam.cn> wrote:

I drove a 1936 Standard 14 once, all the car brakes had leading
shoes, so
when I shot backwards during a 3 point turn and braked nothing happened
and I collided with a parked car.

This page says that shouldn\'t happen:
https://allthedifferences.com/difference-between-leading-trailing-brake-shoes/

No it doesn\'t. It is comparing the effect of the individual shoes.
\"Leading and trailing brake shoes are as capable of stopping the reverse
motion as they are of stopping forward motion.\" This means brakes with
one of each. Leading shoes \"dig\" in to the drum and so have more braking
effect. jon was referring to brakes where they are all leading (when the
car is travelling forward) In the reverse direction they will be all
trailing. (I think the original Mini had twin leading shoes on the front
brakes. I don\'t know whether this was a problem reversing as the rear
brakes were leading/trailing).

Well, you will have much less brake force from the front brake when
backing up, so it will take more for pressure for the same deceleration.