Old garage light fixture with no sign of existing switch

[Jim]

See this photo for reference: http://www.badongo.com/pic/9827256

The white-sheated wire goes to the dead fixture and terminates inside its
box.

Can anyone take a guess as to where the on/off switch would be located for
this old garage light fixture? It's in a California house built in the
early 1950s. The previous owners never got the fixture to work, and when it
last worked is a mystery.

The main ceiling bulb inside the garage works fine, along with a light
outside above the man-door (one of two; the other leads to the kitchen).
Both of those fixtures are operated with wall switches next to their
respective doors.

But the outside spotlight high above the big "garage door" hasn't worked in
decades and nobody knows where the switch is supposed to be. I opened the
wiring box (shown closed in that photo) and couldn't find any sign of a
pull-chain switch. The wires are so jammed in that it was hard to trace
them back outside the box. Didn't want to risk pulling on them, as they
seem brittle.

This may be hard to fugure out online, but if anyone knows where a 1950s
garage switch might TYPICALLY be located, please advise. I've looked all
over inside the garage and may have to get the contractor's wiring diagram
somehow.

Thanks. Jim

 

[William Sommerwerck]

But the outside spotlight high above the big "garage door"
hasn't worked in decades and nobody knows where the
switch is supposed to be. I opened the wiring box (shown
closed in that photo) and couldn't find any sign of a pull-chain
switch. The wires are so jammed in that it was hard to trace
them back outside the box. Didn't want to risk pulling on
them, as they seem brittle.

My intuition is that the switch is in (or at) the house. You would want to
turn on the light before walking out of the house, and turn it off only
after you got back in.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jim wrote:

See this photo for reference: http://www.badongo.com/pic/9827256

The white-sheated wire goes to the dead fixture and terminates inside its
box.

Can anyone take a guess as to where the on/off switch would be located for
this old garage light fixture? It's in a California house built in the
early 1950s. The previous owners never got the fixture to work, and when it
last worked is a mystery.

The main ceiling bulb inside the garage works fine, along with a light
outside above the man-door (one of two; the other leads to the kitchen).
Both of those fixtures are operated with wall switches next to their
respective doors.

But the outside spotlight high above the big "garage door" hasn't worked in
decades and nobody knows where the switch is supposed to be. I opened the
wiring box (shown closed in that photo) and couldn't find any sign of a
pull-chain switch. The wires are so jammed in that it was hard to trace
them back outside the box. Didn't want to risk pulling on them, as they
seem brittle.

This may be hard to fugure out online, but if anyone knows where a 1950s
garage switch might TYPICALLY be located, please advise. I've looked all
over inside the garage and may have to get the contractor's wiring diagram
somehow.

What makes you think the contractor made any notes, let alone a
wiring diagram? You've watched too many episodes of Mission:
Impossible.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[Meat Plow]

On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 21:02:28 -0500, Jim ǝʇoɹʍ:

See this photo for reference: http://www.badongo.com/pic/9827256

The white-sheated wire goes to the dead fixture and terminates inside
its box.

Can anyone take a guess as to where the on/off switch would be located
for this old garage light fixture? It's in a California house built in
the early 1950s. The previous owners never got the fixture to work, and
when it last worked is a mystery.

The main ceiling bulb inside the garage works fine, along with a light
outside above the man-door (one of two; the other leads to the kitchen).
Both of those fixtures are operated with wall switches next to their
respective doors.

But the outside spotlight high above the big "garage door" hasn't worked
in decades and nobody knows where the switch is supposed to be. I opened
the wiring box (shown closed in that photo) and couldn't find any sign
of a pull-chain switch. The wires are so jammed in that it was hard to
trace them back outside the box. Didn't want to risk pulling on them, as
they seem brittle.

This may be hard to fugure out online, but if anyone knows where a 1950s
garage switch might TYPICALLY be located, please advise. I've looked all
over inside the garage and may have to get the contractor's wiring
diagram somehow.

Thanks. Jim

I have a detached garage and the light switch is in the hallway leading
to the basement near the sides entrance of the house where the garage is
located.

 

[Bob AZ]

This may be hard to fugure out online, but if anyone knows where a 1950s
garage switch might TYPICALLY be located, please advise. I've looked all
over inside the garage and may have to get the contractor's wiring diagram
somehow.

Thanks. Jim

Jim
The only sure way is to be sure the power is off and then take it all
apart and put it back together again. Be prepared to lose and replace
some cable/wire.

My best guess is that the problem is in the box feeding the fixture in
question. Also do yourself a favor and replace the pictured box with a
bigger one. At least twice the size. Home depot will have everything.

Forget the contractor. There probably never was a wiring diagram and
all involved are dead.

Bob AZ

 

[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

Can anyone take a guess as to where the on/off switch would be located for
this old garage light fixture?

My guess is that it would be switched with one of the other fixtures you
mentioned...and that there is another problem, possibly with the fixture
that does not work. Given that it seems to be an outdoor fixture, this seems
very plausible.

While you might find building plans, I'd say that it is fairly unlikely to
expect that you will find wiring plans beyond what (if anything) is printed
inside the fuse or circuit breaker box.

William

 

[Jim]

A general thanks to all who replied. I know this was a long shot for an
online question.

The main mystery is that the only visible switches control the inside
garage light (seen in photo) and the light outside the small garage door.
It is not a detached garage, as someone implied.

If one of those two wall switches (inside the garage) also controls the
high outside garage light, it wasn't a very practical setup - to have two
lights on at once, inside and out. Is that a known common configuration
from the old days?

Taking apart the wires in the box isn't practical at the moment (long
story) but I'm sure some answer lies therein. I might end up bypassing the
existing wire entirely and routing a temp. wire from a regular wall plug.

Jim

 

[William Sommerwerck]

If one of those two wall switches (inside the garage) also
controls the high outside garage light, it wasn't a very
practical setup -- to have two lights on at once, inside
and out.

That was my point. There would be no point in controlling the outside light
for the garage from /within/ the garage.

You need to look in the house for a switch that doesn't seem to do anything.

 

[KR]

On Jul 3, 12:02 pm, Jim <jim857...@jim.com> wrote:

See this photo for reference:http://www.badongo.com/pic/9827256

The white-sheated wire goes to the dead fixture and terminates inside its
box.

Can anyone take a guess as to where the on/off switch would be located for
this old garage light fixture? It's in a California house built in the
early 1950s. The previous owners never got the fixture to work, and when it
last worked is a mystery.

The main ceiling bulb inside the garage works fine, along with a light
outside above the man-door (one of two; the other leads to the kitchen).
Both of those fixtures are operated with wall switches next to their
respective doors.

But the outside spotlight high above the big "garage door" hasn't worked in
decades and nobody knows where the switch is supposed to be. I opened the
wiring box (shown closed in that photo) and couldn't find any sign of a
pull-chain switch. The wires are so jammed in that it was hard to trace
them back outside the box. Didn't want to risk pulling on them, as they
seem brittle.

This may be hard to fugure out online, but if anyone knows where a 1950s
garage switch might TYPICALLY be located, please advise. I've looked all
over inside the garage and may have to get the contractor's wiring diagram
somehow.

Thanks. Jim

I don't know how things are done in the US, but I have yet to hear of
an electrical contractor making
such a diagram for a residential install, and even if he did, you
would have Buckleys chance of ever finding it unless it was in the
house.

I would consider it also very likely that the contractor and others
involved would now be dead, or pretty close to that state.

If you think that the wire is brittle - GET IT REPLACED - otherwise
you have serious risk of an electrical fire.
especially if any insulation fell off, or was in the bottom of that
box when you opened it.

At that point, get a switch installed for the light in question, and
be done with it.

 

[nesesu]

On Jul 3, 3:35 pm, "William R. Walsh"
<newsgrou...@idontwantjunqueemail.walshcomptech.com> wrote:

Hi!

Can anyone take a guess as to where the on/off switch would be located for
this old garage light fixture?

My guess is that it would be switched with one of the other fixtures you
mentioned...and that there is another problem, possibly with the fixture
that does not work. Given that it seems to be an outdoor fixture, this seems
very plausible.

While you might find building plans, I'd say that it is fairly unlikely to
expect that you will find wiring plans beyond what (if anything) is printed
inside the fuse or circuit breaker box.

William

If you had the original blueprints for the house, it should have all
the original switches, lights and outlets shown, and there should be a
dotted line from each switch to the light fixture it operates. Now,
there is no guarantee that the contractor followed the plans, and
there could easily have been changes made later, but that should, at
least, provide a clue. Clearly the box pictured has been altered some
time after original construction since the [what appears to be] 3 wire
cable is of a later manufacture from the original black Romex.

Neil S.

 

[Gnack Nol]

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 02:35:05 -0500, Jim wrote:

A general thanks to all who replied. I know this was a long shot for an
online question.

The main mystery is that the only visible switches control the inside
garage light (seen in photo) and the light outside the small garage door.
It is not a detached garage, as someone implied.

If one of those two wall switches (inside the garage) also controls the
high outside garage light, it wasn't a very practical setup - to have two
lights on at once, inside and out. Is that a known common configuration
from the old days?

Taking apart the wires in the box isn't practical at the moment (long
story) but I'm sure some answer lies therein. I might end up bypassing the
existing wire entirely and routing a temp. wire from a regular wall plug.

Jim

Here goes, this is a long shot answer Jim but do you by chance happen to
have a switch in what is or was the living room that seems disconnected?

It was fairly common in old wiring to put the switch for the garage in a
cluster with the living room and front porch lighting switches even
occasionally wiring the garage and porch lights to the same switch.

Also something that you may have missed, the oulet may have been fully
powered all of the time and a screw in pull chain switch ( these were
very common ) used to turn the light on and off. Look for an inoperable
fuse or breaker in your fuse box.

Gnack

 

[Jim]

Gnack Nol <mchozfcesujcfc@mailinator.com> wrote in
newsan.2010.07.04.20.37.49.691424@mailinator.com:

Here goes, this is a long shot answer Jim but do you by chance happen
to have a switch in what is or was the living room that seems
disconnected?

It was fairly common in old wiring to put the switch for the garage in
a cluster with the living room and front porch lighting switches even
occasionally wiring the garage and porch lights to the same switch.

Also something that you may have missed, the oulet may have been fully
powered all of the time and a screw in pull chain switch ( these were
very common ) used to turn the light on and off. Look for an
inoperable fuse or breaker in your fuse box.

I should have noted that I'd already checked for "phantom" switches, and
there ARE two in the kitchen, but nothing happens. It's possible that one
of them was supposed to control the garage exterior light, but there's an
independent fault. I should try replacing those switches.

A pull-chain was one of the first things I looked for. The garage is
cluttered and may yet have more hiding places.

Jim

 

[Jim]

KR <kenreed1999@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1f6a506f-acc1-4c95-aec2-58edaea5a7bd@u36g2000prg.googlegroups.com:

I don't know how things are done in the US, but I have yet to hear of
an electrical contractor making
such a diagram for a residential install, and even if he did, you
would have Buckleys chance of ever finding it unless it was in the
house.

I would consider it also very likely that the contractor and others
involved would now be dead, or pretty close to that state.

Likely dead or festering. It often amazes me that half-century old stuff
lasts as long as it does, especially wire insulation. The main leads coming
out of the fixture on the garage ceiling have a cloth type of outer
insulation, but seem hardy. Makes you wonder how modern materials will
ultimately hold up.

If you think that the wire is brittle - GET IT REPLACED - otherwise
you have serious risk of an electrical fire.
especially if any insulation fell off, or was in the bottom of that
box when you opened it.

Not so much ready to crumble, but jammed into the box in such a way that I
wasn't sure I could shove them back in without metal-fatigue. I think I'll
replace the box with a bigger one and see where everything leads to.

I have limited jurisdiction over modifying this house; doing casual repairs
for other people. Mainly looking for best guesses or old-timer knowledge of
switch locations. Some things obviously can't be answered online.

Jim

 

[Gnack Nol]

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:35:20 -0500, Jim wrote:

Gnack Nol <mchozfcesujcfc@mailinator.com> wrote in
newsan.2010.07.04.20.37.49.691424@mailinator.com:

Here goes, this is a long shot answer Jim but do you by chance happen
to have a switch in what is or was the living room that seems
disconnected?

It was fairly common in old wiring to put the switch for the garage in
a cluster with the living room and front porch lighting switches even
occasionally wiring the garage and porch lights to the same switch.

Also something that you may have missed, the oulet may have been fully
powered all of the time and a screw in pull chain switch ( these were
very common ) used to turn the light on and off. Look for an inoperable
fuse or breaker in your fuse box.

I should have noted that I'd already checked for "phantom" switches, and
there ARE two in the kitchen, but nothing happens. It's possible that
one of them was supposed to control the garage exterior light, but
there's an independent fault. I should try replacing those switches.

A pull-chain was one of the first things I looked for. The garage is
cluttered and may yet have more hiding places.

Jim

What I was refering to is the type of screw in one that goes between the
socke and bulb usuall with two outlets on it. Those were most common.

I'd guess the two switches that you located are in some way related to
this fixture probably one was to control the garage door or some ouside
light fixture and one for the inside light.

Old switches are likely to develop bad contacts that will not conduct even
when the switch still clicks.

Above all be very careful if you decide to replace the switches it's best
to turn off the mains until you are through.

Gnack

 

[KR]

On Jul 6, 5:46 am, Jim <jim857...@jim.com> wrote:

KR <kenreed1...@gmail.com> wrote innews:1f6a506f-acc1-4c95-aec2-58edaea5a7bd@u36g2000prg.googlegroups.com:

I don't know how things are done in the US, but I have yet to hear of
an electrical contractor making
such a diagram for a residential install, and even if he did, you
would have Buckleys chance of ever finding it unless it was in the
house.

I would consider it also very likely that the contractor and others
involved would now be dead, or pretty close to that state.

Likely dead or festering. It often amazes me that half-century old stuff
lasts as long as it does, especially wire insulation. The main leads coming
out of the fixture on the garage ceiling have a cloth type of outer
insulation, but seem hardy. Makes you wonder how modern materials will
ultimately hold up.

Have seen low voltage plastic coated wire in 1950's equipment that is
still serviceable.
A lot of other stuff amazingly holds up well too, as long as it hasnt
been abused or corroded.

Capacitors are a different story.

If you think that the wire is brittle - GET IT REPLACED - otherwise
you have serious risk of an electrical fire.
especially if any insulation fell off, or was in the bottom of that
box when you opened it.

Not so much ready to crumble, but jammed into the box in such a way that I
wasn't sure I could shove them back in without metal-fatigue. I think I'll
replace the box with a bigger one and see where everything leads to.

I have limited jurisdiction over modifying this house; doing casual repairs
for other people. Mainly looking for best guesses or old-timer knowledge of
switch locations. Some things obviously can't be answered online.

Jim

Old Australian house wiring had a cloth covering, but a rubber
insulation underneath. (then the wire in the centre of course)

This rubber would harden with age, and and movement of the wire would
result in the rubber then cracking, breaking
into pieces and falling away from the wire.
This would ultimately result in arcing and usually a fire, if in a
metal conduit (commonplace in the old days) then this would be the
thing it shorted to.

The parts shown do not look like AUS electrical fittings, so the wire
shown may be better or worse than I described.


I would recommend that this install be checked over by a qualified
electrician and a rewire done if needed.


Another hint with the switches, you might want to take out any
switches nearby, take a good look inside the cavity and see if there
is an extra wire not connected.

Possible a home handyman replaced a broken double switch with a single
(that they had on hand) and didn't put that wire on as they were
"going to get around to it later" and never did ?

May also be switched on with a second light, and the wire came loose
on the back of the switch or something too ? Finally check for mains
voltage on the wires on the back of the socket (turn on all light
switches first). Its not impossible that the socket itself is somehow
faulty.

It is hard to imagine an electrician leaving a light unconnected.

 

[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

If one of those two wall switches (inside the garage) also controls
the high outside garage light, it wasn't a very practical setup - to
have two lights on at once, inside and out. Is that a known common
configuration from the old days?

Basically, yes. I've seen a lot of old barns, sheds and garages that
were set up this way...you'd turn on a certain inside light, usually
the "primary" ceiling light and the outdoor light would also come on.
Many of these were pre-existing structures that were electrified
sometime in the 1930s-1960s. (Of course, I am in a rural area, so that
may make things unique.)

I suppose that the assumption was made that if one light was on, the
user probably wanted both, as if they were taking something out or
putting it in. It was probably also just that extra little bit
cheaper.

William

 

[Jim]

[Original thread posted 7/2/10 under same subject line.]

Here's a long term follow-up for anyone who recalls this old
thread or might stumble onto it trying to fix a similar
problem.

It turned out that the single inside garage wall switch DID
indeed control the outside and inside garage lights
simultaneously. Kind of an odd setup, but it can be mitigated
with a separate switch inside if you don't want both lights on
at once.

It seems to have been an unlucky coincidence of a test bulb
burning out right after being screwed in (outside), giving the
false impression that the switch was unrelated. That, combined
with being told it hadn't worked in decades!

We just got around to checking it again (became a high
priority) and the lesson is to double-check a test bulb, even
if it worked minutes before. Never assume, in other words!

Jim

 

[PeterD]

On 5/23/2011 3:45 AM, Jim wrote:

Here's a long term follow-up for anyone who recalls this old
thread or might stumble onto it trying to fix a similar
problem.

It turned out that the single inside garage wall switch DID
indeed control the outside and inside garage lights
simultaneously. Kind of an odd setup, but it can be mitigated
with a separate switch inside if you don't want both lights on
at once.

It seems to have been an unlucky coincidence of a test bulb
burning out right after being screwed in (outside), giving the
false impression that the switch was unrelated. That, combined
with being told it hadn't worked in decades!

We just got around to checking it again (became a high
priority) and the lesson is to double-check a test bulb, even
if it worked minutes before. Never assume, in other words!

Jim

<ggg> That stuff does happen, doesn't it.

I can see it wired that way too, owner or electrician too lazy or not
skilled enough to wire in another switch.

--
I'm never going to grow up.

 

[Bob Villa]

On May 23, 2:45 am, Jim <jim857...@jim.com> wrote:

Here's a long term follow-up for anyone who recalls this old
thread or might stumble onto it trying to fix a similar
problem.

It turned out that the single inside garage wall switch DID
indeed control the outside and inside garage lights
simultaneously. Kind of an odd setup, but it can be mitigated
with a separate switch inside if you don't want both lights on
at once.

It seems to have been an unlucky coincidence of a test bulb
burning out right after being screwed in (outside), giving the
false impression that the switch was unrelated. That, combined
with being told it hadn't worked in decades!

We just got around to checking it again (became a high
priority) and the lesson is to double-check a test bulb, even
if it worked minutes before. Never assume, in other words!

Jim

That's why those no-contact testers are so handy!

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

PeterD wrote:

I can see it wired that way too, owner or electrician too lazy or not
skilled enough to wire in another switch.

No, it's more likely WHEN it was wired. At one time there was so little crime
in the suburbs and they were not worried about someone tripping in front of
their garage and suing them, that they did not leave the lights on.

In those days, either you left the light on when you went out at night,
or you pulled up in the driveway and honked your horn for your
stay-at-home-mom wife to turn on the light.

If you had street lights and no one home, you pulled up in the driveway,
got out of the car, opened the garge door, turned on the light and went
in.

After parking the car and going into the house, the light went out. Later
really rich people bought electronic garage door openers, which did the same
thing.

Look at the old TV shows, such as Leave it to Beaver, I Love Lucy, or
the Dick van Dyke Show.

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
It's amazing how many people have no clue what the word "contiguous" means. :-(