Odd battery voltages

I opened a new package of Kirkland brand AA batteries but when I put
them in the device I got the flashing LED mesage of low voltage. Out
of 6 batteries 3 were bad. Measuring the voltages one battery measured
..82 volts, another 1.1 volts, and a third one measured -87 mV.
Negative? Really? Yeah, I thought that too. But I made sure the meter
leads were correctly placed. So I guess something weird is happenening
to these batteries while they are sitting in the package. Maybe they
are getting ready to leak. I'm thinking that package needs to go back.
to Costco.
Eric

 

[KenW]

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:45:11 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

I opened a new package of Kirkland brand AA batteries but when I put
them in the device I got the flashing LED mesage of low voltage. Out
of 6 batteries 3 were bad. Measuring the voltages one battery measured
.82 volts, another 1.1 volts, and a third one measured -87 mV.
Negative? Really? Yeah, I thought that too. But I made sure the meter
leads were correctly placed. So I guess something weird is happenening
to these batteries while they are sitting in the package. Maybe they
are getting ready to leak. I'm thinking that package needs to go back.
to Costco.
Eric

Cheap batteries are easy to find, just look at the too low price.


KenW

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

Tell you a story:

Energizer Batteries, 1960s-vintage Civil Defense Geiger Counter - my wife collected Fiesta Ware at the time. Paid $30 for the counter and its accouterments at a surplus sale.

Batteries blew up.
Sent the unit to Energizer.

6-weeks later, I received a check from Energizer for $349.67, or some such close to that number, together with a polite note not to keep batteries in a device while in storage.

Nothing but US-made batteries, from here on out. With Energizer being the preferred vendor.

You may have saved $2 for that pack over a domestic name-brand. But it is costing you the trouble of returning them - which in any case will be far more than $2, probably enough for half-a-dozen 'real' batteries.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Allodoxaphobia]

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:45:11 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

I opened a new package of Kirkland brand AA batteries but when I put
them in the device I got the flashing LED mesage of low voltage. Out
of 6 batteries 3 were bad. Measuring the voltages one battery measured
.82 volts, another 1.1 volts, and a third one measured -87 mV.
Negative? Really? Yeah, I thought that too. But I made sure the meter
leads were correctly placed. So I guess something weird is happenening
to these batteries while they are sitting in the package. Maybe they
are getting ready to leak. I'm thinking that package needs to go back.
to Costco.

Yes!
By all means return them to Costco with an attached note as to
their failure(s).

I've been buying, storing (in a fridge), and using Costco's D, AA, AAA,
and 9V batteries for at least 2 decades without issue. Any retailer can
get hurt by bad products from a supplier. But, without feedback . . . . .

Jonesy
--
Marvin L Jones | W3DHJ | W3DHJ | https://W3DHJ.net/
Pueblo, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | __ linux FreeBSD
38.238N 104.547W | jonz.net | DM78rf | 73 SK

 

[John-Del]

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 4:11:10 PM UTC-4, Allodoxaphobia wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:45:11 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:
I opened a new package of Kirkland brand AA batteries but when I put
them in the device I got the flashing LED mesage of low voltage. Out
of 6 batteries 3 were bad. Measuring the voltages one battery measured
.82 volts, another 1.1 volts, and a third one measured -87 mV.
Negative? Really? Yeah, I thought that too. But I made sure the meter
leads were correctly placed. So I guess something weird is happenening
to these batteries while they are sitting in the package. Maybe they
are getting ready to leak. I'm thinking that package needs to go back.
to Costco.

Yes!
By all means return them to Costco with an attached note as to
their failure(s).

I've been buying, storing (in a fridge), and using Costco's D, AA, AAA,
and 9V batteries for at least 2 decades without issue. Any retailer can
get hurt by bad products from a supplier. But, without feedback . . . . .

Jonesy
--
Marvin L Jones | W3DHJ | W3DHJ | https://W3DHJ.net/
Pueblo, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | __ linux FreeBSD
38.238N 104.547W | jonz.net | DM78rf | 73 SK

I've never bothered experimenting, but Duracell recommends storing alkalines at room temp - storing in the refrigerator is not recommended. Supposedly, rechargeables (other than eneloop types) will hold their charge longer if cold, but who knows?

 

On Friday, 19 July 2019 18:39:51 UTC+1, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

I opened a new package of Kirkland brand AA batteries but when I put
them in the device I got the flashing LED mesage of low voltage. Out
of 6 batteries 3 were bad. Measuring the voltages one battery measured
.82 volts, another 1.1 volts, and a third one measured -87 mV.
Negative? Really? Yeah, I thought that too. But I made sure the meter
leads were correctly placed. So I guess something weird is happenening
to these batteries while they are sitting in the package. Maybe they
are getting ready to leak. I'm thinking that package needs to go back.
to Costco.
Eric

I've had some with small negative v too. No idea what the chemistry is that's making that happen.

As for brands, most are much the same. ZnC and alkaline certainly aren't, but otherwise they're not a lot different. All are liable to leak when flat. ZnC sometimes leak when half flat.


NT

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <13428149-1bb2-494a-8939-9db59575302a@googlegroups.com>,
<tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, 19 July 2019 18:39:51 UTC+1, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

I opened a new package of Kirkland brand AA batteries but when I put
them in the device I got the flashing LED mesage of low voltage. Out
of 6 batteries 3 were bad. Measuring the voltages one battery measured
.82 volts, another 1.1 volts, and a third one measured -87 mV.
Negative? Really? Yeah, I thought that too. But I made sure the meter
leads were correctly placed. So I guess something weird is happenening
to these batteries while they are sitting in the package.

I've had some with small negative v too. No idea what the chemistry is that's making that happen.

As for brands, most are much the same. ZnC and alkaline certainly aren't, but otherwise they're not a lot
different. All are liable to leak when flat. ZnC sometimes leak when half flat.

A decade ago, I was happily buying the Kirkland-brand AAs from Costco,
getting good in-service lifetime and no problems to speak of.

A few years ago, something changed. I began to find their AAs
starting to leak, while still fully charged (never put into service),
while still in the original storage box or shrink-wrap package, well
before their labeled "use by" date.

I don't know whether they changed suppliers, or whether their old
supplier's quality fell through the floor... but the result was the
same. I've stopped buying the Kirkland batteries.

 

[Allodoxaphobia]

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:55:17 -0700 (PDT), John-Del wrote:

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 4:11:10 PM UTC-4, Allodoxaphobia wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:45:11 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:
I opened a new package of Kirkland brand AA batteries but when I put
them in the device I got the flashing LED mesage of low voltage. Out
of 6 batteries 3 were bad. Measuring the voltages one battery measured
.82 volts, another 1.1 volts, and a third one measured -87 mV.
Negative? Really? Yeah, I thought that too. But I made sure the meter
leads were correctly placed. So I guess something weird is happenening
to these batteries while they are sitting in the package. Maybe they
are getting ready to leak. I'm thinking that package needs to go back.
to Costco.

Yes!
By all means return them to Costco with an attached note as to
their failure(s).

I've been buying, storing (in a fridge), and using Costco's D, AA, AAA,
and 9V batteries for at least 2 decades without issue. Any retailer can
get hurt by bad products from a supplier. But, without feedback . . . . .


I've never bothered experimenting, but Duracell recommends storing
alkalines at room temp - storing in the refrigerator is not
recommended. Supposedly, rechargeables (other than eneloop types)
will hold their charge longer if cold, but who knows?

My para-chemist opinion is that alkaline batteries are based on chemical
processes, and chemical processes are slowed by lower temperatures.
(Just try starting your car in -50 degrees Fahrenheit. I have.)

My other opinion is that (insert any company name here) has a mission
statement that - (paraphrasing) states "We are here to move product".
(That's why peanut butter and jelly jars contain ridges. You buy
8 oz. and throw out .25 oz. Big deal? Well, after millions and millions
of .25 ounces are thrown out, you can see They Moved A Lot Of Product.

That's my belief and I'm sticking to it.
Jonesy
--
Marvin L Jones | W3DHJ | W3DHJ | https://W3DHJ.net/
Pueblo, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | __ linux FreeBSD
38.238N 104.547W | jonz.net | DM78rf | 73 SK

 

[Rheilly Phoull]

On 20/07/2019 8:30 am, Dave Platt wrote:

In article <13428149-1bb2-494a-8939-9db59575302a@googlegroups.com>,
tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, 19 July 2019 18:39:51 UTC+1, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

I opened a new package of Kirkland brand AA batteries but when I put
them in the device I got the flashing LED mesage of low voltage. Out
of 6 batteries 3 were bad. Measuring the voltages one battery measured
.82 volts, another 1.1 volts, and a third one measured -87 mV.
Negative? Really? Yeah, I thought that too. But I made sure the meter
leads were correctly placed. So I guess something weird is happenening
to these batteries while they are sitting in the package.

I've had some with small negative v too. No idea what the chemistry is that's making that happen.

As for brands, most are much the same. ZnC and alkaline certainly aren't, but otherwise they're not a lot
different. All are liable to leak when flat. ZnC sometimes leak when half flat.

A decade ago, I was happily buying the Kirkland-brand AAs from Costco,
getting good in-service lifetime and no problems to speak of.

A few years ago, something changed. I began to find their AAs
starting to leak, while still fully charged (never put into service),
while still in the original storage box or shrink-wrap package, well
before their labeled "use by" date.

I don't know whether they changed suppliers, or whether their old
supplier's quality fell through the floor... but the result was the
same. I've stopped buying the Kirkland batteries.

Seems to be the same with all brands now, must be they have found a
cheaper way to produce.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:45:11 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

I opened a new package of Kirkland brand AA batteries but when I put
them in the device I got the flashing LED mesage of low voltage. Out
of 6 batteries 3 were bad. Measuring the voltages one battery measured
.82 volts, another 1.1 volts, and a third one measured -87 mV.
Negative? Really? Yeah, I thought that too. But I made sure the meter
leads were correctly placed. So I guess something weird is happenening
to these batteries while they are sitting in the package. Maybe they
are getting ready to leak. I'm thinking that package needs to go back.
to Costco.
Eric

Perhaps something like this mess?
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Kirkland-AAA-leak.jpg>
Actually, I've have fairly good luck with Kirkland batteries. I buy
quite a few in various sizes. Most work, but occasionally, I get a
loser like the one's in the photo.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:30:54 -0700, dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave
Platt) wrote:

A decade ago, I was happily buying the Kirkland-brand AAs from Costco,
getting good in-service lifetime and no problems to speak of.

A few years ago, something changed. I began to find their AAs
starting to leak, while still fully charged (never put into service),
while still in the original storage box or shrink-wrap package, well
before their labeled "use by" date.

It was more than a few years. In 1996, mercury was removed from
alkaline and other batteries. Mercury is what prevented leaks:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_battery>
When introduced in the late 1960s, the zinc electrode of
alkaline batteries (in common with the then ubiquitous
carbon-zinc cells) had a surface film of mercury amalgam.
Its purpose was to control electrolytic action at impurity
sites, which would reduce shelf life and promote leakage.
With reductions in mercury content being mandated by
various legislatures, it became necessary to greatly improve
the purity and consistency of the zinc.

I don't know whether they changed suppliers, or whether their old
supplier's quality fell through the floor... but the result was the
same. I've stopped buying the Kirkland batteries.

Since they can't use mercury, they have to use highly refined zinc
which I assume is expensive. In theory, using only the purity of the
zinc, they could adjust how long the battery will last before leaking
by simply controlling the impurity level in the zinc.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Percival P. Cassidy]

On 7/19/19 9:18 PM, Allodoxaphobia wrote:

My para-chemist opinion is that alkaline batteries are based on chemical
processes, and chemical processes are slowed by lower temperatures.
(Just try starting your car in -50 degrees Fahrenheit. I have.)

My other opinion is that (insert any company name here) has a mission
statement that - (paraphrasing) states "We are here to move product".
(That's why peanut butter and jelly jars contain ridges. You buy
8 oz. and throw out .25 oz. Big deal? Well, after millions and millions
of .25 ounces are thrown out, you can see They Moved A Lot Of Product.

That's my belief and I'm sticking to it.

A few decades ago in another country I had a scraper/spatula with an
edge shaped to match the ridges in cans and jars. Haven't seen such a
thing since.

Perce

 

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 21:39:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:45:11 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

I opened a new package of Kirkland brand AA batteries but when I put
them in the device I got the flashing LED mesage of low voltage. Out
of 6 batteries 3 were bad. Measuring the voltages one battery measured
.82 volts, another 1.1 volts, and a third one measured -87 mV.
Negative? Really? Yeah, I thought that too. But I made sure the meter
leads were correctly placed. So I guess something weird is happenening
to these batteries while they are sitting in the package. Maybe they
are getting ready to leak. I'm thinking that package needs to go back.
to Costco.
Eric

Perhaps something like this mess?
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Kirkland-AAA-leak.jpg
Actually, I've have fairly good luck with Kirkland batteries. I buy
quite a few in various sizes. Most work, but occasionally, I get a
loser like the one's in the photo.

Yeah, I've had good luck with Kirkland batteries too. Certainly no
worse than any other brand. This package was then first to contain bad
cells. I'm still curious about the reversal of the polarity in the one
cell.
Eric

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 20 Jul 2019 11:00:19 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
<Nobody@NotMyISP.net> wrote:

On 7/19/19 9:18 PM, Allodoxaphobia wrote:

My para-chemist opinion is that alkaline batteries are based on chemical
processes, and chemical processes are slowed by lower temperatures.
(Just try starting your car in -50 degrees Fahrenheit. I have.)

My other opinion is that (insert any company name here) has a mission
statement that - (paraphrasing) states "We are here to move product".
(That's why peanut butter and jelly jars contain ridges. You buy
8 oz. and throw out .25 oz. Big deal? Well, after millions and millions
of .25 ounces are thrown out, you can see They Moved A Lot Of Product.

That's my belief and I'm sticking to it.

A few decades ago in another country I had a scraper/spatula with an
edge shaped to match the ridges in cans and jars. Haven't seen such a
thing since.

Perce

It's called a "jar scraper tool" or something similar:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=jar+scraper+tool&tbm=isch>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Fo0SF6qU>
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=peanut+butter+jar+scraper>
<https://www.uncommongoods.com/product/peanut-butter-spoon>

However, that doesn't mean that manufacturers can't retaliate and make
life difficult. Try scraping all the peanut butter out of these jars:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=peanut+butter+"sun-pat"&tbm=isch>


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

As to how you would get 'negative' voltage. Consider what happens when you connect your VOM with the leads reversed.

The chemistry in that battery had "flipped over" such that it was producing current opposite to the marked poles. Not uncommon with cheap batteries that often blow up even before being unwrapped.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Percival P. Cassidy]

On 7/20/19 10:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

My para-chemist opinion is that alkaline batteries are based on chemical
processes, and chemical processes are slowed by lower temperatures.
(Just try starting your car in -50 degrees Fahrenheit. I have.)

My other opinion is that (insert any company name here) has a mission
statement that - (paraphrasing) states "We are here to move product".
(That's why peanut butter and jelly jars contain ridges. You buy
8 oz. and throw out .25 oz. Big deal? Well, after millions and millions
of .25 ounces are thrown out, you can see They Moved A Lot Of Product.

That's my belief and I'm sticking to it.

A few decades ago in another country I had a scraper/spatula with an
edge shaped to match the ridges in cans and jars. Haven't seen such a
thing since.

It's called a "jar scraper tool" or something similar:
https://www.google.com/search?q=jar+scraper+tool&tbm=isch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I-Fo0SF6qU
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=peanut+butter+jar+scraper
https://www.uncommongoods.com/product/peanut-butter-spoon

However, that doesn't mean that manufacturers can't retaliate and make
life difficult. Try scraping all the peanut butter out of these jars:
https://www.google.com/search?q=peanut+butter+"sun-pat"&tbm=isch

This is pretty close to what I had:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tovolo-5-Serrated-Icing-Spatula-Cakes-And-Pastry-Kitchen-Baking/222395160334?hash=item33c7c8d70e:g:GFQAAOSw5cNYkS7q

Perce

 

On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:06:05 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com"
<peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

As to how you would get 'negative' voltage. Consider what happens when you connect your VOM with the leads reversed.

The chemistry in that battery had "flipped over" such that it was producing current opposite to the marked poles. Not uncommon with cheap batteries that often blow up even before being unwrapped.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I know the chemistry somehow reversed. What I would like is an
explanation of what happened in detail. How the chemistry reverses.
Eric

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 7/22/19 12:34 PM, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

I know the chemistry somehow reversed. What I would like is an
explanation of what happened in detail. How the chemistry reverses.
Eric

Completely discharged batteries can be reverse charged.
So, imagine, a dead cell in series with others, there's your
reverse charging potential.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

I know the chemistry somehow reversed. What I would like is an
explanation of what happened in detail. How the chemistry reverses.
Eric

OK:

Parts and pieces, simplified:

Zinc anode current collector.
Manganese Oxide Cathode.
Potassium Hydroxide Electrolyte/Anode

Chemical Reactions = power + heat.
External Heat will increase the completeness of the reaction.
When that heat is removed, there is an opportunity for the reaction to reverse.
When the expansion seal fails (the chemical reactions increase internal volume, and so will cause cheap batteries to leak), oxygen added to the system will react with the other chemicals and start that reverse reaction.

Notice that the reverse reaction is a very tiny fraction of the primary reaction, and needs a considerable and elaborate sequence-of-events to take place:

a) Over Reaction
b) Leak
c) Oxygen

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[John-Del]

On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 1:47:53 PM UTC-4, Fox's Mercantile wrote:

On 7/22/19 12:34 PM, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

I know the chemistry somehow reversed. What I would like is an
explanation of what happened in detail. How the chemistry reverses.
Eric

Completely discharged batteries can be reverse charged.
So, imagine, a dead cell in series with others, there's your
reverse charging potential.


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

Yep. You see this a lot when people mix batteries in a device. Almost invariably, one will be die before the others and get reverse charged.