Non contact methods to check overhead HT powerlines?...

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message unavailable

 

[TTman]

On 08/12/2021 11:42, Martin Brown wrote:

UK had a bit of a battering recently with storm Arwen and many areas
including mine were off grid for a few days to a fortnight. This was
largely due to the utter incompetence of one power distribution network
at dealing with the many faults it caused. Most of them look to have
been due to avoiding doing any kind of preventative maintenance.

A big problem was persuading the engineers sent out to fix things that
the main distribution 11kV and 33kV lines were down rather than the LT
240v mains systems in the villages. They even insisted on checking mains
fuses and drop lines to premises before they would even consider looking
at the next level up. It was incredibly frustrating for all concerned.

The field engineers were being told by their central system that these
locations were on grid (and calls were logged as if this were true so
that individual premises were marked as needing a reset). The reality
was that a tree had snapped the HT line in a very difficult to see spot
and there were lines trailing on the ground elsewhere too. The farmer
even reported this on the first day as a danger to life fault.

This was repeated all across the North of England and some places had
still not had power restored when the next storm Barra hit yesterday!

What would be incredibly useful would be to have a quick none contact
means to establish if 11kV or 33kV lines are live or not by standing
underneath with a small simple box. I have in mind something like a high
gain audio amplifier and a mains hum wet finger test. Any better ideas?

I know that for the next level up you can get fluorescent tubes to glow
in the electric field under 200kV pylons, but they are bit fragile.

Does something easy like this already exist? If not why not?

Understandably in the pitch dark, foul weather and a howling gale field
engineers are not keen to use a hook on probe just in case it is live.

I\'m sure they have hi tech detectors as opposed to a box and a
finger.... And when they do start work, they strap the conductors
together and bond them into the ground, just in case...

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[Liz Tuddenham]

TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote:

On 08/12/2021 11:42, Martin Brown wrote:
UK had a bit of a battering recently with storm Arwen and many areas
including mine were off grid for a few days to a fortnight. This was
largely due to the utter incompetence of one power distribution network
at dealing with the many faults it caused. Most of them look to have
been due to avoiding doing any kind of preventative maintenance.

A big problem was persuading the engineers sent out to fix things that
the main distribution 11kV and 33kV lines were down rather than the LT
240v mains systems in the villages. They even insisted on checking mains
fuses and drop lines to premises before they would even consider looking
at the next level up. It was incredibly frustrating for all concerned.

The field engineers were being told by their central system that these
locations were on grid (and calls were logged as if this were true so
that individual premises were marked as needing a reset). The reality
was that a tree had snapped the HT line in a very difficult to see spot
and there were lines trailing on the ground elsewhere too. The farmer
even reported this on the first day as a danger to life fault.

This was repeated all across the North of England and some places had
still not had power restored when the next storm Barra hit yesterday!

What would be incredibly useful would be to have a quick none contact
means to establish if 11kV or 33kV lines are live or not by standing
underneath with a small simple box. I have in mind something like a high
gain audio amplifier and a mains hum wet finger test. Any better ideas?

I know that for the next level up you can get fluorescent tubes to glow
in the electric field under 200kV pylons, but they are bit fragile.

Does something easy like this already exist? If not why not?

Understandably in the pitch dark, foul weather and a howling gale field
engineers are not keen to use a hook on probe just in case it is live.


I\'m sure they have hi tech detectors as opposed to a box and a
finger.... And when they do start work, they strap the conductors
together and bond them into the ground, just in case...

A neon bulb on a plastic stick ought to work.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the \".invalid\"s and add \".co.uk\" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Martin Brown]

On 08/12/2021 11:56, TTman wrote:

On 08/12/2021 11:42, Martin Brown wrote:
UK had a bit of a battering recently with storm Arwen and many areas
including mine were off grid for a few days to a fortnight. This was
largely due to the utter incompetence of one power distribution
network at dealing with the many faults it caused. Most of them look
to have been due to avoiding doing any kind of preventative maintenance.

A big problem was persuading the engineers sent out to fix things that
the main distribution 11kV and 33kV lines were down rather than the LT
240v mains systems in the villages. They even insisted on checking
mains fuses and drop lines to premises before they would even consider
looking at the next level up. It was incredibly frustrating for all
concerned.

The field engineers were being told by their central system that these
locations were on grid (and calls were logged as if this were true so
that individual premises were marked as needing a reset). The reality
was that a tree had snapped the HT line in a very difficult to see
spot and there were lines trailing on the ground elsewhere too. The
farmer even reported this on the first day as a danger to life fault.

This was repeated all across the North of England and some places had
still not had power restored when the next storm Barra hit yesterday!

What would be incredibly useful would be to have a quick none contact
means to establish if 11kV or 33kV lines are live or not by standing
underneath with a small simple box. I have in mind something like a
high gain audio amplifier and a mains hum wet finger test. Any better
ideas?

I know that for the next level up you can get fluorescent tubes to
glow in the electric field under 200kV pylons, but they are bit fragile.

Does something easy like this already exist? If not why not?

Understandably in the pitch dark, foul weather and a howling gale
field engineers are not keen to use a hook on probe just in case it is
live.


I\'m sure they have hi tech detectors as opposed to a box and a
finger.... And when they do start work, they strap the conductors
together and bond them into the ground, just in case...

They gave the strong impression of not knowing which way was *UP*!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 12:38:19 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

A neon bulb on a plastic stick ought to work.

In the rain!

My OEM Japanese AM car radio distorts whenever I pass under a major
power corridor. Funny, a Korean one in SO\'s PHEV doesn\'t.
--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Wednesday, December 8, 2021 at 6:43:01 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

UK had a bit of a battering recently with storm Arwen and many areas
including mine were off grid for a few days to a fortnight. This was
largely due to the utter incompetence of one power distribution network
at dealing with the many faults it caused. Most of them look to have
been due to avoiding doing any kind of preventative maintenance.

A big problem was persuading the engineers sent out to fix things that
the main distribution 11kV and 33kV lines were down rather than the LT
240v mains systems in the villages. They even insisted on checking mains
fuses and drop lines to premises before they would even consider looking
at the next level up. It was incredibly frustrating for all concerned.

The field engineers were being told by their central system that these
locations were on grid (and calls were logged as if this were true so
that individual premises were marked as needing a reset). The reality
was that a tree had snapped the HT line in a very difficult to see spot
and there were lines trailing on the ground elsewhere too. The farmer
even reported this on the first day as a danger to life fault.

This was repeated all across the North of England and some places had
still not had power restored when the next storm Barra hit yesterday!

What would be incredibly useful would be to have a quick none contact
means to establish if 11kV or 33kV lines are live or not by standing
underneath with a small simple box. I have in mind something like a high
gain audio amplifier and a mains hum wet finger test. Any better ideas?

I know that for the next level up you can get fluorescent tubes to glow
in the electric field under 200kV pylons, but they are bit fragile.

Does something easy like this already exist? If not why not?

Understandably in the pitch dark, foul weather and a howling gale field
engineers are not keen to use a hook on probe just in case it is live.

Hang cats on the line.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2021-12-08, Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

UK had a bit of a battering recently with storm Arwen and many areas
including mine were off grid for a few days to a fortnight. This was
largely due to the utter incompetence of one power distribution network
at dealing with the many faults it caused. Most of them look to have
been due to avoiding doing any kind of preventative maintenance.

A big problem was persuading the engineers sent out to fix things that
the main distribution 11kV and 33kV lines were down rather than the LT
240v mains systems in the villages. They even insisted on checking mains
fuses and drop lines to premises before they would even consider looking
at the next level up. It was incredibly frustrating for all concerned.

The field engineers were being told by their central system that these
locations were on grid (and calls were logged as if this were true so
that individual premises were marked as needing a reset). The reality
was that a tree had snapped the HT line in a very difficult to see spot
and there were lines trailing on the ground elsewhere too. The farmer
even reported this on the first day as a danger to life fault.

Possibly the helpdesk needs more training they could have asked \"do
your neighbours have electricity\"

This was repeated all across the North of England and some places had
still not had power restored when the next storm Barra hit yesterday!

What would be incredibly useful would be to have a quick none contact
means to establish if 11kV or 33kV lines are live or not by standing
underneath with a small simple box. I have in mind something like a high
gain audio amplifier and a mains hum wet finger test. Any better ideas?

A field mill.

--
Jasen.

 

[Wim Ton]

Smart meters and a GIS. As smart meters send a \"last gasp\" message on a power fail, the network operator can easily see: all consumers behind a certain location on the HV line are without power. That should narrow the problem quite a bit.
AFAIK, the UK already has quite a few smart meters in use. The maintenance of the GIS is often the problem.

Wim
Disclaimer: I manufactured these before my retirement.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 09/12/2021 00:53, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2021-12-08, Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
UK had a bit of a battering recently with storm Arwen and many areas
including mine were off grid for a few days to a fortnight. This was
largely due to the utter incompetence of one power distribution network
at dealing with the many faults it caused. Most of them look to have
been due to avoiding doing any kind of preventative maintenance.

A big problem was persuading the engineers sent out to fix things that
the main distribution 11kV and 33kV lines were down rather than the LT
240v mains systems in the villages. They even insisted on checking mains
fuses and drop lines to premises before they would even consider looking
at the next level up. It was incredibly frustrating for all concerned.

The field engineers were being told by their central system that these
locations were on grid (and calls were logged as if this were true so
that individual premises were marked as needing a reset). The reality
was that a tree had snapped the HT line in a very difficult to see spot
and there were lines trailing on the ground elsewhere too. The farmer
even reported this on the first day as a danger to life fault.

Possibly the helpdesk needs more training they could have asked \"do
your neighbours have electricity\"

The hell desk is a f*cking Dalek designed by clueless idiots.
(I am writing to my MP about it - there will be a public enquiry)

There is a long preamble about much they care about their customers and
how you can check on the website (well no you can\'t because mobile and
fixed line internet both go down very quickly without any mains).

The only two questions you can get to via a POTS phone line when their
system thinks that your segment is on power are:

Do you have mains power ? YES/NO
Have you checked your main breaker? YES/NO

It then says you can stay on the line to talk to an advisor. The waiting
time for this is <X> minute (X is never small). You sit on the line for
that time waiting and then they drop the line at their end.

Rinse and repeat...

This was repeated all across the North of England and some places had
still not had power restored when the next storm Barra hit yesterday!

What would be incredibly useful would be to have a quick none contact
means to establish if 11kV or 33kV lines are live or not by standing
underneath with a small simple box. I have in mind something like a high
gain audio amplifier and a mains hum wet finger test. Any better ideas?

A field mill.

They didn\'t seem to have anything or they wouldn\'t have spent so much
time pratting around checking house internal wiring. The house they went
to had a 11kV line and transformer about 30m from the front door.

Remember their system is telling them the HT circuit for this segment is
OK. The customer is telling them *NO* the whole village is off. The
engineers were stuck following their inflexible tick box automated
protocol - but they didn\'t seem very bright at fault finding either
They would have charged him £180 if he refused to let them check his
electrics - I might have been inclined to say OK see you in court.

They were a bit unlucky that the house they picked was one of two
isolated ones nearest the main road with no street lights outside. If
they had picked me first in the village I could have demonstrated
conclusively that all phases were down since the street lamps were off.

By the time they eventually reached the village centre the streetlamps
would be off anyway since they are smart ones that shutdown at midnight.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Martin Brown]

On 09/12/2021 08:44, Wim Ton wrote:

Smart meters and a GIS. As smart meters send a \"last gasp\" message on a power fail, the network operator can easily see: all consumers behind a certain location on the HV line are without power. That should narrow the problem quite a bit.
AFAIK, the UK already has quite a few smart meters in use. The maintenance of the GIS is often the problem.

In this case I think we can be fairly sure it was human error. I\'d have
expected them to be able to tell from the control room which HT breakers
were off in real time - but perhaps my expectation is unreasonable.

The one causing the trouble was difficult to get to - my suspicion is a
CBA failure and ticking the box to say it was OK without going to look.

Wim
Disclaimer: I manufactured these before my retirement.

There aren\'t many smart meters in rural UK mobile signal too dodgy.

There is one in our VH installed at the start of lockdown. It lost
contact with base after 3 months. They replaced it and gave it a super
antenna on a longish wire and that failed after another 2 months. They
have gone back to manual electric meter readings after that.

My own home can\'t have one either for similar reasons - not enough
mobile signal strength indoors for ET to phone home. My mobile only gets
enough signal if placed on a particular window ledge and on bad days for
2FA to work I have to walk around the garden holding it in the air!
(sometimes the website times out before I get my one time code)

In this case it looks very much like they maximised company profits by
failing to do any routine maintenance at all on the physical network. In
places one pole falling over caused a cascade failure of dozens of
adjacent poles that were all basically at end of life. They fell down
like dominoes once the first one went down. Here is a bit of background:

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/northern-powergrid-complaints-storm-arwen-22359905

In the same field as the one that snapped we have found another pole
where beast rubbing against it have thinned it to a mere 4\" diameter at
cow shoulder height from a starting diameter of 10\".

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[David Lesher]

Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> writes:


>They gave the strong impression of not knowing which way was *UP*!

High Tech can\'t cure stoopid...

--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that\'s close..........................
Unless the host (that isn\'t close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

 

[server]

David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> wrote in news:stmuhg$cre$1
@reader1.panix.com:

Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> writes:


They gave the strong impression of not knowing which way was *UP*!

High Tech can\'t cure stoopid...

IR thermometry does it. Now, imagery.

Way back in \'86 I used to make a 4 inch tube x about 26\" length with
a rifle stock attached to the bottom/rear, and a rifle scope \'prismed\'
right in to the exact aim point. And it had an analog dial scale up to
450F if I recall. And it was a Gold 4\" mirror and single resistor
bolometer IR transducer with a Germanium 2mm window on a TO-39 can.
The power companies bought them to point at insulators and transfrmers
from a distance without the need for a bucket truck or other hazardous
method. All before small form factor room temp imaging instruments
came out. Now one can buy an IR imaging thermal \'camara\' for a couple
hundred buckaneers! and a brand name one for not much more.

 

[server]

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote in
news:stn09q$bp$1@gioia.aioe.org:

snip

IR thermometry does it. Now, imagery.

Way back in \'86 I used to make a 4 inch tube x about 26\" length
with
a rifle stock attached to the bottom/rear, and a rifle scope
\'prismed\' right in to the exact aim point. And it had an analog
dial scale up to 450F if I recall. And it was a Gold 4\" mirror
and single resistor bolometer IR transducer with a Germanium 2mm
window on a TO-39 can. The power companies bought them to point at
insulators and transfrmers from a distance without the need for a
bucket truck or other hazardous method. All before small form
factor room temp imaging instruments came out. Now one can buy an
IR imaging thermal \'camara\' for a couple hundred buckaneers! and
a brand name one for not much more.

Here is the handheld unit. Mine had a 4\" tube and a rifle stock, but I
could not find one out there
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/122847699765?
hash=item1c9a4b2335:g:4voAAOSw9idaKDoU>

I can\'t find the long tube job I used to make, but I made a few of
those I posted the image of as well.