Nickel plated polyimide--where to get?

P

Phil Hobbs

Guest
I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
on it.

I haven't found anybody that's interested in supplying it in engineering
quantities (say 10 square feet).

Anyone here have a favourite shop that does nickel plating on plastic?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net
 
Phil Hobbs wrote:
I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
on it.

I haven't found anybody that's interested in supplying it in engineering
quantities (say 10 square feet).

Anyone here have a favourite shop that does nickel plating on plastic?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

....alternate..vacuum sputter deposit for any thickness you want; control
Click to expand...
can be as good as 1/10 wavelength of light (pick your favorite color).
....another alternate..perhaps gold film?
 
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:32:53 -0500, Phil Hobbs wrote:

I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
on it.

I haven't found anybody that's interested in supplying it in engineering
quantities (say 10 square feet).

Anyone here have a favourite shop that does nickel plating on plastic?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs
Click to expand...
Not sure about the nickel, but Minco will do custom polyimide film
heaters to your design:

http://www.minco.com/products/heaters.aspx?id=71
 
Glen Walpert wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:32:53 -0500, Phil Hobbs wrote:

I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
on it.

I haven't found anybody that's interested in supplying it in engineering
quantities (say 10 square feet).

Anyone here have a favourite shop that does nickel plating on plastic?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

Not sure about the nickel, but Minco will do custom polyimide film
heaters to your design:

http://www.minco.com/products/heaters.aspx?id=71
Click to expand...
Thanks, I asked them already--they aren't interested in supplying plain
sheets.

I thought about vacuum dep, but it'll get expensive in the sort of
quantity I want, and there's still the adhesion issue. If I still had
my own evaporator, I'd probably do it that way--I could just wrap the PI
round the inside of the bell jar!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net
 
Stupid question...

Wouldn't it be possible to make the polyimide conductive by rubbing graphite
into its surface ("The Audio Amateur" had at least one article about
home-made electrostatic speakers that showed how to do this with Mylar),
then plate it?
 
George Herold wrote:
On Jan 20, 11:32 pm, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
on it.

I haven't found anybody that's interested in supplying it in engineering
quantities (say 10 square feet).

Anyone here have a favourite shop that does nickel plating on plastic?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs



I assume aluminized mylar won't work. I didn't know you could nickle
plate onto plastic? Could you get a local electroplater to put nickel
on aluminized mylar and solder to that?

George H.
Click to expand...
Thanks.

I'm planning to use it as a really big RTD, so I need a continuous film
of reasonably pure metal with reasonably uniform thickness. The films
have a tendency to crack if the base layer is too thin or too flexible,
which is bad. If I roll it into a cylinder with the metal side in, I'll
put enough of a compressive preload on the nickel to keep it from
cracking under temperature cycling. When the process is better
developed, it might be useful to do the plating on the outside of a
cylinder, so that there'll be a preload when it straightens out.

I'm not sure what temperature the plating is done at, but for lower
temperatures there should be a compressive preload anyway, due to the
differential thermal expansion.

I have a roll of copper-clad polyimide, which is beautiful stuff, in
fact about 250 times too good for this job--the copper is 12 times too
thick and 20 times too conductive. A 40 microinch nickel film is just
the ticket.

Mylar isn't really solderable--it isn't refractive enough. Indium might
work.

Cheers

Phil

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net
 
William Sommerwerck wrote:
Stupid question...

Wouldn't it be possible to make the polyimide conductive by rubbing graphite
into its surface ("The Audio Amateur" had at least one article about
home-made electrostatic speakers that showed how to do this with Mylar),
then plate it?
Click to expand...
I'd be worried about the film adhesion--the nickel would only stick as
well as the graphite. Plating plastic involves stuff like chromic acid
dips, reducing palladium salts to form Pd nucleation sites on the film,
and then electroless plating.

Not your ideal home project unfortunately!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net
 
On 21/01/2011 04:32, Phil Hobbs wrote:
I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
on it.

I haven't found anybody that's interested in supplying it in engineering
quantities (say 10 square feet).

Anyone here have a favourite shop that does nickel plating on plastic?
Click to expand...
You might find your local electroplating shop can do electroless nickel
plating from a physical reducing bath.

Just about DIYable for small quantities if you don't want a very thick
layer. Might even be possible to pattern it with a suitable resist.

http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/std/cppb/metals/metalsrecelectroless.htm

Nickel is one of the metals for which reducing baths work well.

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:5d2dnTpQK8jsJaTQnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@supernews.com...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

Wouldn't it be possible to make the polyimide conductive by rubbing
graphite into its surface ("The Audio Amateur" had at least one article
about home-made electrostatic speakers that showed how to do this
with Mylar), then plate it?

I'd be worried about the film adhesion--the nickel would only stick as
well as the graphite. Plating plastic involves stuff like chromic acid
dips, reducing palladium salts to form Pd nucleation sites on the film,
and then electroless plating.
Not your ideal home project unfortunately!
Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification.

This is the sort of problem you'd think would have been solved decades ago.
The original SX-70 used copper-coated (plated?) polysulfone, which was then
plated with nickel and chrome. The plating sticks to the plastic with a
tenacity that's almost unbelievable. You actually have to break the plastic
before the plating comes loose.
 
On Jan 20, 11:32 pm, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

I need to pattern it and then solder to it.  Copper is too conductive,
which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
on it.

I haven't found anybody that's interested in supplying it in engineering
quantities (say 10 square feet).

Anyone here have a favourite shop that does nickel plating on plastic?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) nethttp://electrooptical.net
Click to expand...
I assume aluminized mylar won't work. I didn't know you could nickle
plate onto plastic? Could you get a local electroplater to put nickel
on aluminized mylar and solder to that?

George H.
 
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Phil Hobbs"<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:5d2dnTpQK8jsJaTQnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@supernews.com...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

Wouldn't it be possible to make the polyimide conductive by rubbing
graphite into its surface ("The Audio Amateur" had at least one article
about home-made electrostatic speakers that showed how to do this
with Mylar), then plate it?

I'd be worried about the film adhesion--the nickel would only stick as
well as the graphite. Plating plastic involves stuff like chromic acid
dips, reducing palladium salts to form Pd nucleation sites on the film,
and then electroless plating.
Not your ideal home project unfortunately!

Thanks for the clarification.

This is the sort of problem you'd think would have been solved decades ago.
The original SX-70 used copper-coated (plated?) polysulfone, which was then
plated with nickel and chrome. The plating sticks to the plastic with a
tenacity that's almost unbelievable. You actually have to break the plastic
before the plating comes loose.
Click to expand...
Oh, it's been solved, all right--Minco advertises nickel film RTDs. I
tried to get them to make the films, but they either couldn't or didn't
want to, and I didn't want to have to deal with making artwork--I'm
going to pattern it with a Sharpie and some ferric chloride. (Ferric
chloride works well on thin sputtered nickel, so I'm hoping the plated
stuff doesn't have some weird passivation. I should try it out on a
bolt or something before I take the plunge. Of course I can also
electropolish it away in KOH solution.)

BTW the Minco rep is a good guy, who gave me a steer to somebody who may
be their supplier--I just haven't heard from them yet.

Anyway, if it works, I'll try licensing it to them. ;) It should be
good for at least 100x reduction in thermal forcing for the down-hole
application I'm working on--sort of the thermal equivalent of a Faraday
shield.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net
 
On Jan 21, 5:32 am, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

I need to pattern it and then solder to it.  Copper is too conductive,
which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
on it.
Click to expand...
Could you do electro-etching to thin the copper down until it was
resistive enough? You would need to get down from 12.5 micron of
copper to about 0.03 micron, which would be tricky - since the copper
isn't going to be a uniform 12.5 micron thick layer to start with,
you'd probably end up with a network of isolated islands if you tried
to do it in one hit.

Alternating electro-erosion and electro-polishing might work.

I've been in situations where even a single-atom thick layer of metal
was too conductive for my purposes, but 40 microinches/ 1 micron of
nickel would be a good deal more conductive than that.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
 
On Jan 20, 8:32 pm, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.
Click to expand...
So, plate your nickel onto anything you want, then apply/bake the
polyimide as a conformal coating, and etch away the 'anything'
layer?
 
whit3rd wrote:
On Jan 20, 8:32 pm, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

So, plate your nickel onto anything you want, then apply/bake the
polyimide as a conformal coating, and etch away the 'anything'
layer?
Click to expand...
I'm attempting to throw money at the problem, hopefully in the direction
of somebody who's done it many times before. That way I can get on with
the parts I'm not sure will work!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net
 
Bill Sloman wrote:
On Jan 21, 5:32 am, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
on it.

Could you do electro-etching to thin the copper down until it was
resistive enough? You would need to get down from 12.5 micron of
copper to about 0.03 micron, which would be tricky - since the copper
isn't going to be a uniform 12.5 micron thick layer to start with,
you'd probably end up with a network of isolated islands if you tried
to do it in one hit.

Alternating electro-erosion and electro-polishing might work.

I've been in situations where even a single-atom thick layer of metal
was too conductive for my purposes, but 40 microinches/ 1 micron of
nickel would be a good deal more conductive than that.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
Click to expand...

Copper is not going to work--you need some reasonable thickness to get
continuity. A pity.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net
 
Phil Hobbs wrote:
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Phil Hobbs"<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:5d2dnTpQK8jsJaTQnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@supernews.com...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

Wouldn't it be possible to make the polyimide conductive by rubbing
graphite into its surface ("The Audio Amateur" had at least one article
about home-made electrostatic speakers that showed how to do this
with Mylar), then plate it?

I'd be worried about the film adhesion--the nickel would only stick as
well as the graphite. Plating plastic involves stuff like chromic acid
dips, reducing palladium salts to form Pd nucleation sites on the film,
and then electroless plating.
Not your ideal home project unfortunately!

Thanks for the clarification.

This is the sort of problem you'd think would have been solved decades
ago.
The original SX-70 used copper-coated (plated?) polysulfone, which was
then
plated with nickel and chrome. The plating sticks to the plastic with a
tenacity that's almost unbelievable. You actually have to break the
plastic
before the plating comes loose.



Oh, it's been solved, all right--Minco advertises nickel film RTDs. I
tried to get them to make the films, but they either couldn't or didn't
want to, and I didn't want to have to deal with making artwork--I'm
going to pattern it with a Sharpie and some ferric chloride. (Ferric
chloride works well on thin sputtered nickel, so I'm hoping the plated
stuff doesn't have some weird passivation. I should try it out on a
bolt or something before I take the plunge. Of course I can also
electropolish it away in KOH solution.)

BTW the Minco rep is a good guy, who gave me a steer to somebody who may
be their supplier--I just haven't heard from them yet.

Anyway, if it works, I'll try licensing it to them. ;) It should be
good for at least 100x reduction in thermal forcing for the down-hole
application I'm working on--sort of the thermal equivalent of a Faraday
shield.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Jut had a dumb idea..how about unrolling mylar or other plastic caps?
Click to expand...
 
On Jan 21, 10:18 pm, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
whit3rd wrote:
On Jan 20, 8:32 pm, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net>  wrote:
I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

So, plate your nickel onto anything you want,  then apply/bake the
polyimide as a conformal coating, and etch away the 'anything'
layer?

I'm attempting to throw money at the problem, hopefully in the direction
of somebody who's done it many times before.  That way I can get on with
the parts I'm not sure will work!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) nethttp://electrooptical.net
Click to expand...
A thermal Faraday shield sounds like some sort of distributed heating
(cooling?) Can you mock something up, by soldering together bits of
nickel wire? (I like phosphur bronze for heaters.)

George H.
 
Robert Baer wrote:
Phil Hobbs wrote:
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Phil Hobbs"<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:5d2dnTpQK8jsJaTQnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@supernews.com...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

Wouldn't it be possible to make the polyimide conductive by rubbing
graphite into its surface ("The Audio Amateur" had at least one
article
about home-made electrostatic speakers that showed how to do this
with Mylar), then plate it?

I'd be worried about the film adhesion--the nickel would only stick as
well as the graphite. Plating plastic involves stuff like chromic acid
dips, reducing palladium salts to form Pd nucleation sites on the film,
and then electroless plating.
Not your ideal home project unfortunately!

Thanks for the clarification.

This is the sort of problem you'd think would have been solved
decades ago.
The original SX-70 used copper-coated (plated?) polysulfone, which
was then
plated with nickel and chrome. The plating sticks to the plastic with a
tenacity that's almost unbelievable. You actually have to break the
plastic
before the plating comes loose.



Oh, it's been solved, all right--Minco advertises nickel film RTDs. I
tried to get them to make the films, but they either couldn't or
didn't want to, and I didn't want to have to deal with making
artwork--I'm going to pattern it with a Sharpie and some ferric
chloride. (Ferric chloride works well on thin sputtered nickel, so I'm
hoping the plated stuff doesn't have some weird passivation. I should
try it out on a bolt or something before I take the plunge. Of course
I can also electropolish it away in KOH solution.)

BTW the Minco rep is a good guy, who gave me a steer to somebody who
may be their supplier--I just haven't heard from them yet.

Anyway, if it works, I'll try licensing it to them. ;) It should be
good for at least 100x reduction in thermal forcing for the down-hole
application I'm working on--sort of the thermal equivalent of a
Faraday shield.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Jut had a dumb idea..how about unrolling mylar or other plastic caps?
Click to expand...
I don't think I could find a 6-inch long one to begin with.... ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net
 
George Herold wrote:
On Jan 21, 10:18 pm, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
whit3rd wrote:
On Jan 20, 8:32 pm, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

So, plate your nickel onto anything you want, then apply/bake the
polyimide as a conformal coating, and etch away the 'anything'
layer?

I'm attempting to throw money at the problem, hopefully in the direction
of somebody who's done it many times before. That way I can get on with
the parts I'm not sure will work!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) nethttp://electrooptical.net

A thermal Faraday shield sounds like some sort of distributed heating
(cooling?) Can you mock something up, by soldering together bits of
nickel wire? (I like phosphur bronze for heaters.)

George H.
Click to expand...
I think I can get an improvement of 40 dB or maybe even more in thermal
forcing rejection, but it needs to be something technologically
feasible....and anything involving wire is going to be too conductive.

Sorry to be mysterious about it--if it works I'm certainly going to
patent it. A cheap and simple gizmo that makes an improvement of that
magnitude will be worth actual money, I should hope. It's nice and
discoverable, too, which is another plus, and the actual hardware is
easy to make on standard production equipment. It's getting the blanket
material to play with that's the problem.

It's no secret that the way to get speed in thermal control systems is
to keep everything close together--heat conduction is what's slow.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs



--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net
 
Phil Hobbs wrote:
Robert Baer wrote:
Phil Hobbs wrote:
William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Phil Hobbs"<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:5d2dnTpQK8jsJaTQnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@supernews.com...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

Wouldn't it be possible to make the polyimide conductive by rubbing
graphite into its surface ("The Audio Amateur" had at least one
article
about home-made electrostatic speakers that showed how to do this
with Mylar), then plate it?

I'd be worried about the film adhesion--the nickel would only stick as
well as the graphite. Plating plastic involves stuff like chromic acid
dips, reducing palladium salts to form Pd nucleation sites on the film,
and then electroless plating.
Not your ideal home project unfortunately!

Thanks for the clarification.

This is the sort of problem you'd think would have been solved
decades ago.
The original SX-70 used copper-coated (plated?) polysulfone, which
was then
plated with nickel and chrome. The plating sticks to the plastic with a
tenacity that's almost unbelievable. You actually have to break the
plastic
before the plating comes loose.



Oh, it's been solved, all right--Minco advertises nickel film RTDs. I
tried to get them to make the films, but they either couldn't or
didn't want to, and I didn't want to have to deal with making
artwork--I'm going to pattern it with a Sharpie and some ferric
chloride. (Ferric chloride works well on thin sputtered nickel, so I'm
hoping the plated stuff doesn't have some weird passivation. I should
try it out on a bolt or something before I take the plunge. Of course
I can also electropolish it away in KOH solution.)

BTW the Minco rep is a good guy, who gave me a steer to somebody who
may be their supplier--I just haven't heard from them yet.

Anyway, if it works, I'll try licensing it to them. ;) It should be
good for at least 100x reduction in thermal forcing for the down-hole
application I'm working on--sort of the thermal equivalent of a
Faraday shield.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Jut had a dumb idea..how about unrolling mylar or other plastic caps?

I don't think I could find a 6-inch long one to begin with.... ;)
Click to expand...

Then my roll of metalized film from Sprague won't help you. It came
from their Orlando plant closing, about 20 years ago.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
 
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