New secure credit cards?

D

David L. Jones

Guest
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?

Dave.
 
David L. Jones wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?

Dave.
It should be very happy letting the bank know all sorts of interesting
Click to expand...
things about your habits if it is a real smart card.
 
David L. Jones wrote:
On Feb 18, 8:30 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?

Dave.

Ah-ha, found it, this is what Westpac say:
http://www.westpac.com.au/internet/publish.nsf/Content/PBCCCS+Chip+FAQs

Sounds like no real benefit over my other credit card that I use the
pin number with, much better than the useless signature method.

They've been using them in the UK for a while now - and there's been a
Click to expand...
massive increase in CC fraud as a result.

Absolutely no audit trail to protect you - when you report a fraudulent
transaction, they say, "You must have given someone the card and
number..." At least with the bit of paper you can say, "Show me."

Cheers,
Gary B-)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
Armful of chairs: Something some people would not know
whether you were up them with or not
- Barry Humphries
 
On Feb 18, 8:30 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?

Dave.
Click to expand...
Ah-ha, found it, this is what Westpac say:
http://www.westpac.com.au/internet/publish.nsf/Content/PBCCCS+Chip+FAQs

Sounds like no real benefit over my other credit card that I use the
pin number with, much better than the useless signature method.

Dave.
 
David L. Jones wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?

Dave.
Click to expand...
It's intended to allow the banks to blame fraudulent transactions on the
customer.

See

http://www.chipandspin.co.uk/spin/index.html

Sylvia.
 
Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
David L. Jones wrote:
On Feb 18, 8:30 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?

Dave.

Ah-ha, found it, this is what Westpac say:
http://www.westpac.com.au/internet/publish.nsf/Content/PBCCCS+Chip+FAQs

Sounds like no real benefit over my other credit card that I use the
pin number with, much better than the useless signature method.

They've been using them in the UK for a while now - and there's been a
massive increase in CC fraud as a result.

Absolutely no audit trail to protect you - when you report a fraudulent
transaction, they say, "You must have given someone the card and
number..." At least with the bit of paper you can say, "Show me."

Cheers,
Gary B-)

Funny thing is if you zap the chip the paper trail is re established
Click to expand...
easily..
 
atec 77 wrote:
Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
David L. Jones wrote:
On Feb 18, 8:30 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?

Dave.

Ah-ha, found it, this is what Westpac say:
http://www.westpac.com.au/internet/publish.nsf/Content/PBCCCS+Chip+FAQs

Sounds like no real benefit over my other credit card that I use the
pin number with, much better than the useless signature method.

They've been using them in the UK for a while now - and there's been a
massive increase in CC fraud as a result.

Absolutely no audit trail to protect you - when you report a
fraudulent transaction, they say, "You must have given someone the
card and number..." At least with the bit of paper you can say, "Show
me."

Cheers,
Gary B-)

Funny thing is if you zap the chip the paper trail is re established
easily..
Click to expand...
For the moment. Expect to find that zapping the chip in future results
in the card being unusable.

Sylvia.
 
Sylvia Else wrote:
atec 77 wrote:
Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
David L. Jones wrote:
On Feb 18, 8:30 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?

Dave.

Ah-ha, found it, this is what Westpac say:
http://www.westpac.com.au/internet/publish.nsf/Content/PBCCCS+Chip+FAQs

Sounds like no real benefit over my other credit card that I use the
pin number with, much better than the useless signature method.

They've been using them in the UK for a while now - and there's been
a massive increase in CC fraud as a result.

Absolutely no audit trail to protect you - when you report a
fraudulent transaction, they say, "You must have given someone the
card and number..." At least with the bit of paper you can say,
"Show me."

Cheers,
Gary B-)

Funny thing is if you zap the chip the paper trail is re established
easily..

For the moment. Expect to find that zapping the chip in future results
in the card being unusable.

Sylvia.
wrong
Click to expand...
 
Hi,

David L. Jones wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?
Click to expand...
Many of the standard Westpac cards started including this since last
year, I've never seen or had any use for it in Australia though, but
when I was at a main Paris train station last year, I couldn't buy
tickets from any of the ticket machines because my credit card lacked
the "chip" on it. The machine only accepted cards with a "chip", and at
the time I hadn't received my new one yet. Very annoying, as I was
forced to queue up. That's the only time I ever had problems due to
lacking a "chip" on my credit card (they seemed to be much more common
in Europe).

Regards,

Ross..
 
Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:

David L. Jones wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?

Dave.

It's intended to allow the banks to blame fraudulent transactions on the
customer.

See

http://www.chipandspin.co.uk/spin/index.html
Click to expand...
Thanks for this Sylvia. I think it implies that Australians should not
change to using a PIN instead of a signature until the credit card
providers force us to. Agreed?
 
Ross Vumbaca wrote:

Many of the standard Westpac cards started including this since last
year, I've never seen or had any use for it in Australia though, but
when I was at a main Paris train station last year, I couldn't buy
tickets from any of the ticket machines because my credit card lacked
the "chip" on it. The machine only accepted cards with a "chip", and at
the time I hadn't received my new one yet. Very annoying, as I was
forced to queue up. That's the only time I ever had problems due to
lacking a "chip" on my credit card (they seemed to be much more common
in Europe).
Click to expand...
I have had a Westpac Mastercard chip type card for maybe 6 months, and
only ever found one retail outlet with a chip reader during this time.

BTW
Westpac will be issuing new cards for some customers this month.
Mastercards will go back to Visa. Only a couple of years ago, I was
pushed from Visa to Mastercard. :)

There are two new systems the banks have been pushing on us for on line
transactions for possibly 18 months now. (perhaps longer) Google for
Visa's "Verify by Visa" and Mastercard's "Secure Code".

Basically, when you enter your credit card details, you are shunted off
to a new web page that asks for your password. If you can't provide it,
no transaction. If you aren't registered via your card issuer, they will
ask you to register, so you can add this password feature.

As a merchant, we can manually circumnavigate this if requested to do so
by the customer, but this usually entails a phone call from the customer.

It has been a real pain in the butt for merchants, as you may loose the
customer, or have the need to go through the manual steps. Customer is
never warned in advance, and we can't switch it off.

But it's all done for our security.
I have an LCD device I have to keep pressing the button on, when I wish
to access my CBA account, and Westpac has the qwerty keyboard, password
system.

INGdirect, has an ever changing numeric-keypad layout, so that mouse
movements are never constant, and so it goes on.

Cheers Don...



--
Don McKenzie

Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email
No More Damn Spam: http://www.wizard-of-oz.com

http://www.dontronics-shop.com/super4-usb-relay-module.html
 
Don McKenzie <5V@2.5A> wrote:

Ross Vumbaca wrote:

Many of the standard Westpac cards started including this since last
year, I've never seen or had any use for it in Australia though, but
when I was at a main Paris train station last year, I couldn't buy
tickets from any of the ticket machines because my credit card lacked
the "chip" on it. The machine only accepted cards with a "chip", and at
the time I hadn't received my new one yet. Very annoying, as I was
forced to queue up. That's the only time I ever had problems due to
lacking a "chip" on my credit card (they seemed to be much more common
in Europe).

I have had a Westpac Mastercard chip type card for maybe 6 months, and
only ever found one retail outlet with a chip reader during this time.
Click to expand...
My wife got an ANZ card with a chip ages ago - back in 2007 I think it
was. At that time there were very few of the readers about, and I can
remember that the staff in the few places that that did have them were
often flummoxed when they had to use the new-fangled devices. These
days the readers are popping up all over the place.

The last card I got from CBA has not only the chip for PIN
verification, but also a RFID chip. The RFID chip is used for
something called PayPass to pay for items up to $35 with no
verification of identity at all (no signing, no PIN). I have yet to
see one of the readers for that system - their web site lists only 20
of them in Sydney.


Andy Wood
woodag@trap.ozemail.com.au
 
In message <qsdop4t1e8lm91vh03731c4622jm5i1mqp@4ax.com>, David Segall
<david@address.invalid> writes
Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
It's intended to allow the banks to blame fraudulent transactions on the
customer.

See

http://www.chipandspin.co.uk/spin/index.html

Thanks for this Sylvia. I think it implies that Australians should not
change to using a PIN instead of a signature until the credit card
providers force us to. Agreed?
Although I agree with the buck passing part of the Chip and PIN
Click to expand...
argument, part of the reason for the leap in fraud on UK/European cards
is actually because other countries aren't using chip and PIN yet.

Just wait until your retailers get hold of the idea, at the moment I bet
they lose money on fraudulent card use, with chip and PIN the banks
guarantee the transaction and pass the cost onto the user.


--
Clint Sharp
 
atec 77 wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
atec 77 wrote:
Gary R. Schmidt wrote:
David L. Jones wrote:
On Feb 18, 8:30 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it.
Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there
that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?

Dave.

Ah-ha, found it, this is what Westpac say:
http://www.westpac.com.au/internet/publish.nsf/Content/PBCCCS+Chip+FAQs


Sounds like no real benefit over my other credit card that I use the
pin number with, much better than the useless signature method.

They've been using them in the UK for a while now - and there's been
a massive increase in CC fraud as a result.

Absolutely no audit trail to protect you - when you report a
fraudulent transaction, they say, "You must have given someone the
card and number..." At least with the bit of paper you can say,
"Show me."

Cheers,
Gary B-)

Funny thing is if you zap the chip the paper trail is re established
easily..

For the moment. Expect to find that zapping the chip in future results
in the card being unusable.

Sylvia.
wrong
Click to expand...
What a strange response. How can you possible say that will not be how
things work in future?

Sylvia.
 
David Segall wrote:
Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:

David L. Jones wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?

Dave.
It's intended to allow the banks to blame fraudulent transactions on the
customer.

See

http://www.chipandspin.co.uk/spin/index.html

Thanks for this Sylvia. I think it implies that Australians should not
change to using a PIN instead of a signature until the credit card
providers force us to. Agreed?
Click to expand...
Yes. I have never had a PIN issued for my credit card, although
admittedly I have an EFTPOS card with a PIN.

Sylvia.
 
David L. Jones wrote:
On Feb 19, 10:57 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
David Segall wrote:
Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
David L. Jones wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?
Dave.
It's intended to allow the banks to blame fraudulent transactions on the
customer.
See
http://www.chipandspin.co.uk/spin/index.html
Thanks for this Sylvia. I think it implies that Australians should not
change to using a PIN instead of a signature until the credit card
providers force us to. Agreed?
Yes. I have never had a PIN issued for my credit card, although
admittedly I have an EFTPOS card with a PIN.

I've had a PIN on my credit card for some time now, and I love it. You
can request a PIN for many cards, more and more places are accepting
the PIN now. Quite unusual for me now not to find a place that will
accept the PIN.

If credit cards had PIN only and no signature then they would be far
safer for over-the-counter transactions, as a stolen card couldn't be
used in a shop for instance, just like a stolen KeyCard. The quicker
they drop the useless signature the better IMO.
Click to expand...
PINS can be captured by looking over someone's shoulder, by using video
cameras, by using compromised card readers (that can also copy the
stripe), etc. PINS are very insecure.

The advantage of a signature is that it has to be genuine (not merely a
good facsimile), otherwise you're not liable. The onus of proof is
pretty much on the bank.

Banks tend not to go out of their way to publicise it, but existing
signature based credit card fraud is largely a cost to the banks (and
ultimately spread amongst all users), rather than to the individual
whose card was missused.

Sylvia.
 
On Feb 19, 10:57 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
David Segall wrote:
Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:

David L. Jones wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?

Dave.
It's intended to allow the banks to blame fraudulent transactions on the
customer.

See

http://www.chipandspin.co.uk/spin/index.html

Thanks for this Sylvia. I think it implies that Australians should not
change to using a PIN instead of a signature until the credit card
providers force us to. Agreed?

Yes. I have never had a PIN issued for my credit card, although
admittedly I have an EFTPOS card with a PIN.
Click to expand...
I've had a PIN on my credit card for some time now, and I love it. You
can request a PIN for many cards, more and more places are accepting
the PIN now. Quite unusual for me now not to find a place that will
accept the PIN.

If credit cards had PIN only and no signature then they would be far
safer for over-the-counter transactions, as a stolen card couldn't be
used in a shop for instance, just like a stolen KeyCard. The quicker
they drop the useless signature the better IMO.

Online is different of course, but at least then the buggers are
trackable with goods delivery addressed and the like.

Dave.
 
David L. Jones wrote:
But those technical means with which to acquire that PIN are not
trivial, almost certainly not available to your usual pick-pocket for
example. You can also overcome some of those issues by being aware.
Click to expand...
It's not the average pick-pocket who's the problem. It's organised groups.

Sylvia.
 
"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:0018c87b$0$20704$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
wrong

What a strange response. How can you possible say that will not be how
things work in future?
Click to expand...
Easily, you both have to wait to see who is right :)

MrT.
 
On Feb 19, 11:29 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
David L. Jones wrote:
On Feb 19, 10:57 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
David Segall wrote:
Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
David L. Jones wrote:
Just got a new Westpac Ignite Mastercard today (they bought out
Virgin). It's got a nice shiny smart card style chip in it. Supposedly
a "CHIP based card for increased fraud protection" or some such said
the blurb.
I didn't know there were any infrastructure/readers etc out there that
could take advantage of such a thing.
It's still got the magnetic strip as well of course.
Anyone got any idea how it works or what it's intended for?
Dave.
It's intended to allow the banks to blame fraudulent transactions on the
customer.
See
http://www.chipandspin.co.uk/spin/index.html
Thanks for this Sylvia. I think it implies that Australians should not
change to using a PIN instead of a signature until the credit card
providers force us to. Agreed?
Yes. I have never had a PIN issued for my credit card, although
admittedly I have an EFTPOS card with a PIN.

I've had a PIN on my credit card for some time now, and I love it. You
can request a PIN for many cards, more and more places are accepting
the PIN now. Quite unusual for me now not to find a place that will
accept the PIN.

If credit cards had PIN only and no signature then they would be far
safer for over-the-counter transactions, as a stolen card couldn't be
used in a shop for instance, just like a stolen KeyCard. The quicker
they drop the useless signature the better IMO.

PINS can be captured by looking over someone's shoulder, by using video
cameras, by using compromised card readers (that can also copy the
stripe), etc. PINS are very insecure.
Click to expand...
But those technical means with which to acquire that PIN are not
trivial, almost certainly not available to your usual pick-pocket for
example. You can also overcome some of those issues by being aware.

The advantage of a signature is that it has to be genuine (not merely a
good facsimile), otherwise you're not liable. The onus of proof is
pretty much on the bank.
Click to expand...
Yep, I know this, but still a pain in the arse when it happens, and
having the signature makes this more likely to happen I think if your
card is stolen.
But if say your wallet gets stolen and your card was only usable with
a PIN (or online where they can track you), it would be much less
valuable to the common thief.
With the signature method it's trivial to use that card to buy
thousands of dollars worth of un-trackable goods over-the-counter
before it gets reported stolen, hence making it a much more valuable
target to common thieves.

I'd rather have no signature and take my chances with the PIN.
The PIN is also much more convenient.

Dave.
 
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