Needed: transformer overheat power cutoff.

B

Bob in Phx

Guest
To All,
I have a few great old Boatanchor tube type radios. The number one issue
that I hear from others with these types of radios is transformer failure.
The majority of transformer failures are from bad capacitors that slowly
allow the amperage being pulled from the transformers to go up. This causes
the transformer to overheat and the internal windings to short. The best
protection for this issue appears to be replacing all the old capacitors
with new ones. I have done that, but still worry and am constantly check the
heating of my transformers. I do this by hand and if it feels " to hot" I
turn the radio off. So how hot is two hot, I am not sure, but I am guessing
someplace in the 110 degree to 150 degree area. I will be posing the how hot
is too hot question over on the antique radio newgroup... But for now I was
wondering if an externally powered circuit could be built to shut off the
radios main power, if the outside temperature of the transformer goes above
a certain level????? I would suspect that a termisitor, a power supply and a
relay would lashed up together. I am not sure of how to do this... I would
also like to add that I may be barking up the wrong tree and maybe all I
need is a very accurate fuse that is matched to the "highest" amperage
encountered during normal operation of the radio. Over amperage, thermal
runaway and damage of the transformer is what I am trying stop. Any
ideas?????

bob in phx.
 
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:35:57 -0700, "Bob in Phx" <rbelisle1@cox.net>
wrote:

To All,
I have a few great old Boatanchor tube type radios. The number one issue
that I hear from others with these types of radios is transformer failure.
The majority of transformer failures are from bad capacitors that slowly
allow the amperage being pulled from the transformers to go up. This causes
the transformer to overheat and the internal windings to short. The best
protection for this issue appears to be replacing all the old capacitors
with new ones. I have done that, but still worry and am constantly check the
heating of my transformers. I do this by hand and if it feels " to hot" I
turn the radio off. So how hot is two hot, I am not sure, but I am guessing
someplace in the 110 degree to 150 degree area. I will be posing the how hot
is too hot question over on the antique radio newgroup... But for now I was
wondering if an externally powered circuit could be built to shut off the
radios main power, if the outside temperature of the transformer goes above
a certain level????? I would suspect that a termisitor, a power supply and a
relay would lashed up together. I am not sure of how to do this... I would
also like to add that I may be barking up the wrong tree and maybe all I
need is a very accurate fuse that is matched to the "highest" amperage
encountered during normal operation of the radio. Over amperage, thermal
runaway and damage of the transformer is what I am trying stop. Any
ideas?????
Click to expand...
---
The fuse idea isn't a bad one, but what you'd have to do would be to
match the fuse's rating to the increase in the transformer's current
draw as a function of time.

Most fuses are rated to carry their rated current forever, but as
the current through them increases, they'll fail sooner. For
example, if you have a 1 ampere fuse in a circuit which is pulling 1
ampere through the fuse, the fuse will never blow, but if your
circuit starts pulling 2 amps the fuse will blow in a certain amount
of time. 4 amps will cause it to blow more quickly, and so on.

The various fuse manufacturers' data sheets will give the "time to
blow VS current" data.

OTOH, if you'd like to disconnect the radio from the mains when the
transformer gets to a certain temperature, you could use something
like an LM35 epoxied to the transformer laminations followed up with
a comparator and a normally-closed relay which would interrupt the
mains when the transformer got hot.

The nice thing about this scheme is that it's a thermostat.
As long as the transformer laminations stay below the trigger
temperature the radio will play, but when they get hot enough
that'll disconnect the radio from the mains and allow the
transformer to cool down until it gets cool enough to let the relay
drop out and connect the mains to the primary of the transformer.

If you like I can post a schematic for you, but with my current
workload it'll have to be next week sometime.

Maybe someone else can pick up the challenge?


--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer
 
John,
I would love a schematic and am willing to wait as long as it takes... Your
last schematic for me (a TTL sensing relay setup for an old video poker
machine, worked great and is still working!!)

thanks in advance.

bob in phx.
"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:qehdj2183ibc0tf5dfrdgtf4ab5d1mvrak@4ax.com...
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:35:57 -0700, "Bob in Phx" <rbelisle1@cox.net
wrote:

To All,
I have a few great old Boatanchor tube type radios. The number one issue
that I hear from others with these types of radios is transformer failure.
The majority of transformer failures are from bad capacitors that slowly
allow the amperage being pulled from the transformers to go up. This
causes
the transformer to overheat and the internal windings to short. The best
protection for this issue appears to be replacing all the old capacitors
with new ones. I have done that, but still worry and am constantly check
the
heating of my transformers. I do this by hand and if it feels " to hot" I
turn the radio off. So how hot is two hot, I am not sure, but I am
guessing
someplace in the 110 degree to 150 degree area. I will be posing the how
hot
is too hot question over on the antique radio newgroup... But for now I
was
wondering if an externally powered circuit could be built to shut off the
radios main power, if the outside temperature of the transformer goes
above
a certain level????? I would suspect that a termisitor, a power supply and
a
relay would lashed up together. I am not sure of how to do this... I would
also like to add that I may be barking up the wrong tree and maybe all I
need is a very accurate fuse that is matched to the "highest" amperage
encountered during normal operation of the radio. Over amperage, thermal
runaway and damage of the transformer is what I am trying stop. Any
ideas?????

---
The fuse idea isn't a bad one, but what you'd have to do would be to
match the fuse's rating to the increase in the transformer's current
draw as a function of time.

Most fuses are rated to carry their rated current forever, but as
the current through them increases, they'll fail sooner. For
example, if you have a 1 ampere fuse in a circuit which is pulling 1
ampere through the fuse, the fuse will never blow, but if your
circuit starts pulling 2 amps the fuse will blow in a certain amount
of time. 4 amps will cause it to blow more quickly, and so on.

The various fuse manufacturers' data sheets will give the "time to
blow VS current" data.

OTOH, if you'd like to disconnect the radio from the mains when the
transformer gets to a certain temperature, you could use something
like an LM35 epoxied to the transformer laminations followed up with
a comparator and a normally-closed relay which would interrupt the
mains when the transformer got hot.

The nice thing about this scheme is that it's a thermostat.
As long as the transformer laminations stay below the trigger
temperature the radio will play, but when they get hot enough
that'll disconnect the radio from the mains and allow the
transformer to cool down until it gets cool enough to let the relay
drop out and connect the mains to the primary of the transformer.

If you like I can post a schematic for you, but with my current
workload it'll have to be next week sometime.

Maybe someone else can pick up the challenge?


--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer
Click to expand...
 
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:35:57 -0700, "Bob in Phx" <rbelisle1@cox.net>
wrote:

To All,
I have a few great old Boatanchor tube type radios. The number one issue
that I hear from others with these types of radios is transformer failure.
The majority of transformer failures are from bad capacitors that slowly
allow the amperage being pulled from the transformers to go up. This causes
the transformer to overheat and the internal windings to short. The best
protection for this issue appears to be replacing all the old capacitors
with new ones. I have done that, but still worry and am constantly check the
heating of my transformers. I do this by hand and if it feels " to hot" I
turn the radio off. So how hot is two hot, I am not sure, but I am guessing
someplace in the 110 degree to 150 degree area. I will be posing the how hot
is too hot question over on the antique radio newgroup... But for now I was
wondering if an externally powered circuit could be built to shut off the
radios main power, if the outside temperature of the transformer goes above
a certain level????? I would suspect that a termisitor, a power supply and a
relay would lashed up together. I am not sure of how to do this... I would
also like to add that I may be barking up the wrong tree and maybe all I
need is a very accurate fuse that is matched to the "highest" amperage
encountered during normal operation of the radio. Over amperage, thermal
runaway and damage of the transformer is what I am trying stop. Any
ideas?????

bob in phx.
Click to expand...
At the risk of being shot at dawn...

Many nicd battery packs (not single cells) have a normall closed,
opens at about 120 thermostat in them. Usually a small rectangle with
two leads in series with the cells. By carefully disassembling a pack
you can salvage the thermostat (then *recycle* the nicads) and use it
in your application.
 
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:04:53 -0400, PeterD <peter2@hipson.net>
wrote:


At the risk of being shot at dawn...

Many nicd battery packs (not single cells) have a normall closed,
opens at about 120 thermostat in them. Usually a small rectangle with
two leads in series with the cells. By carefully disassembling a pack
you can salvage the thermostat (then *recycle* the nicads) and use it
in your application.
Click to expand...
---
Excellent suggestion!

Totally passive, and cheaper than an active solution.

http://www.cantherm.com/products/thermal_cutouts/f11u.html

Digi-Key carries some Cantherm parts and Mouser carries some
Stancor:

http://www.cantherm.com/products/thermal_cutouts/f11u.html

there's also Klixon...


--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer
 
klixon!!!!!!!! why didn't I think of that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Off to the store in the morning.
"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:79vej2hmcqad79rdd4pvkdmkvrt3lmfm7u@4ax.com...
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:04:53 -0400, PeterD <peter2@hipson.net
wrote:


At the risk of being shot at dawn...

Many nicd battery packs (not single cells) have a normall closed,
opens at about 120 thermostat in them. Usually a small rectangle with
two leads in series with the cells. By carefully disassembling a pack
you can salvage the thermostat (then *recycle* the nicads) and use it
in your application.

---
Excellent suggestion!

Totally passive, and cheaper than an active solution.

http://www.cantherm.com/products/thermal_cutouts/f11u.html

Digi-Key carries some Cantherm parts and Mouser carries some
Stancor:

http://www.cantherm.com/products/thermal_cutouts/f11u.html

there's also Klixon...


--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer
Click to expand...
 
On 2006-10-18, Bob in Phx <rbelisle1@cox.net> wrote:
But for now I was wondering if an externally powered circuit could be built
Click to expand...
It's called a "thermal cutout" (or self-resetting thermal fuse) it's a little
thing with a flat surface that you mount in contact with the equipment to be
monitored and two terminals that you wire in series with the mains.

eg: jaycar.com.au catalogue number 3823


Bye.
Jasen
 
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