Need help building a split voltage supply

J

JoJo

Guest
Can someone help me design a simple dual voltage power supply.

I have some IC's that require 5V and others that require 3V (actually a
battery operated device that I am interfacing to). I want to build a power
supply that can power both devices.

I was going to use a 7805 for the 5V supply. How should I drop the voltage
for the 3V device. A simple schematic would also help if possible.

Thank you all.

JoJo
 
The most simple way is to put three silicon diodes in series with the 5V if
the tolerance on the 3V allows. Do some calculation (or measurments) to
check that within the temperature range you are operating the changes in the
diodes threshold voltage are acceptable.
Gene
 
Thanks for your reply.

I am a newbie at this so I just would like to clarify.

Would these be Zener diodes?
If you can explain why this would cause a voltage drop It would be of
interest to me.

Do some calculation (or measurements) to
check that within the temperature range you are operating the changes in
the
diodes threshold voltage are acceptable.
Click to expand...
If I understand you, there would be a change in voltage with a change in
temp. If I am operating at room tempeteture is this a REAL factor?



"Gene" <email@private.net> wrote in message
news:3NoXc.8407$QJ3.8081@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
The most simple way is to put three silicon diodes in series with the 5V
if
the tolerance on the 3V allows. Do some calculation (or measurments) to
check that within the temperature range you are operating the changes in
the
diodes threshold voltage are acceptable.
Gene
Click to expand...
 
"JoJo" <N@NE.nothing> wrote in message
news:1093537501.721040@aragorn...
Thanks for your reply.

I am a newbie at this so I just would like to clarify.

Would these be Zener diodes?
Click to expand...
normal diodes are fine, probably better than zeners, because they are
cheaper. 1N4001 is a good choice for low power applications. You can
get them most places electronics parts are sold.

If you can explain why this would cause a voltage drop It would be
of
interest to me.
Click to expand...
Its just the way diodes are. They drop a small voltage when passing
current. The current is an exponential function of the voltage, so for
most purposes, you can assume that they drop around 0.7V no matter
what the current. 10x the current will change this by about 60mV.

The 0.7V is referred to as the barrier potential of the diode.

Do some calculation (or measurements) to
check that within the temperature range you are operating the
changes in
the
diodes threshold voltage are acceptable.

If I understand you, there would be a change in voltage with a
change in
temp. If I am operating at room tempeteture is this a REAL factor?
Click to expand...
The amount of voltage that a diode drops for a given current will
change, depending on temperature. However, its not normally a concern
for this kind of circuit. The change is around -2.1mV/C, meaning that
the voltage the thing will drop decreases by 2.1mV for each increase
of 1 degree C. However, that refers to the temperature of the
junction, not the ambient temperature, and so is also related to how
much current the thing is passing (self-heating), and the ability of
the case and leads to transmit heat to the surroundings.

So, I guess you can ignore this if you want.

regards,
-- Bob Monsen
 
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:24:45 -0400, "JoJo" <N@NE.nothing> wrote:

Thanks for your reply.

I am a newbie at this so I just would like to clarify.

Would these be Zener diodes?
If you can explain why this would cause a voltage drop It would be of
interest to me.
Click to expand...
No - just normal rectifier diodes. A forward-biased silicon diode
will have a voltage drop of about 0.7 volts across it.

To allow some fine tuning of the voltage, a forward-biased Schottky
diode has a drop of about 0.3 volts.

In both cases, the drop will vary slightly with current and with the
current rating of the diode.

Do some calculation (or measurements) to
check that within the temperature range you are operating the changes in
the
diodes threshold voltage are acceptable.

If I understand you, there would be a change in voltage with a change in
temp. If I am operating at room tempeteture is this a REAL factor?
Click to expand...
Perhaps, or perhaps not - but it is something to be aware of.

--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
 
Thanks for the info.

I had some 1N4002 diodes laying around and tried them. I got 1V drop using 4
in parallel. Is that really my best way, I would need 8 (I think) to get me
down to 3V?

Would 4001 make a difference?

Thanks



"Robert C Monsen" <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pwqXc.320348$%_6.38386@attbi_s01...
"JoJo" <N@NE.nothing> wrote in message
news:1093537501.721040@aragorn...
Thanks for your reply.

I am a newbie at this so I just would like to clarify.

Would these be Zener diodes?

normal diodes are fine, probably better than zeners, because they are
cheaper. 1N4001 is a good choice for low power applications. You can
get them most places electronics parts are sold.

If you can explain why this would cause a voltage drop It would be
of
interest to me.

Its just the way diodes are. They drop a small voltage when passing
current. The current is an exponential function of the voltage, so for
most purposes, you can assume that they drop around 0.7V no matter
what the current. 10x the current will change this by about 60mV.

The 0.7V is referred to as the barrier potential of the diode.


Do some calculation (or measurements) to
check that within the temperature range you are operating the
changes in
the
diodes threshold voltage are acceptable.

If I understand you, there would be a change in voltage with a
change in
temp. If I am operating at room tempeteture is this a REAL factor?


The amount of voltage that a diode drops for a given current will
change, depending on temperature. However, its not normally a concern
for this kind of circuit. The change is around -2.1mV/C, meaning that
the voltage the thing will drop decreases by 2.1mV for each increase
of 1 degree C. However, that refers to the temperature of the
junction, not the ambient temperature, and so is also related to how
much current the thing is passing (self-heating), and the ability of
the case and leads to transmit heat to the surroundings.

So, I guess you can ignore this if you want.

regards,
-- Bob Monsen
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the info.

"Peter Bennett" <peterbb@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:9knsi053c822d9lgjq7iabpo3l3q4tvshk@4ax.com...
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:24:45 -0400, "JoJo" <N@NE.nothing> wrote:

Thanks for your reply.

I am a newbie at this so I just would like to clarify.

Would these be Zener diodes?
If you can explain why this would cause a voltage drop It would be of
interest to me.

No - just normal rectifier diodes. A forward-biased silicon diode
will have a voltage drop of about 0.7 volts across it.

To allow some fine tuning of the voltage, a forward-biased Schottky
diode has a drop of about 0.3 volts.

In both cases, the drop will vary slightly with current and with the
current rating of the diode.


Do some calculation (or measurements) to
check that within the temperature range you are operating the changes
in
the
diodes threshold voltage are acceptable.

If I understand you, there would be a change in voltage with a change in
temp. If I am operating at room tempeteture is this a REAL factor?

Perhaps, or perhaps not - but it is something to be aware of.

--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs:
http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
Click to expand...
 
"JoJo" <N@NE.nothing> wrote in message
news:3luXc.111035$4h7.15629286@twister.nyc.rr.com...
"Robert C Monsen" <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pwqXc.320348$%_6.38386@attbi_s01...

"JoJo" <N@NE.nothing> wrote in message
news:1093537501.721040@aragorn...
Thanks for your reply.

I am a newbie at this so I just would like to clarify.

Would these be Zener diodes?

normal diodes are fine, probably better than zeners, because they
are
cheaper. 1N4001 is a good choice for low power applications. You
can
get them most places electronics parts are sold.

If you can explain why this would cause a voltage drop It would
be
of
interest to me.

Its just the way diodes are. They drop a small voltage when passing
current. The current is an exponential function of the voltage, so
for
most purposes, you can assume that they drop around 0.7V no matter
what the current. 10x the current will change this by about 60mV.

The 0.7V is referred to as the barrier potential of the diode.


Do some calculation (or measurements) to
check that within the temperature range you are operating the
changes in
the
diodes threshold voltage are acceptable.

If I understand you, there would be a change in voltage with a
change in
temp. If I am operating at room tempeteture is this a REAL
factor?


The amount of voltage that a diode drops for a given current will
change, depending on temperature. However, its not normally a
concern
for this kind of circuit. The change is around -2.1mV/C, meaning
that
the voltage the thing will drop decreases by 2.1mV for each
increase
of 1 degree C. However, that refers to the temperature of the
junction, not the ambient temperature, and so is also related to
how
much current the thing is passing (self-heating), and the ability
of
the case and leads to transmit heat to the surroundings.

So, I guess you can ignore this if you want.

regards,
-- Bob Monsen




Thanks for the info.

I had some 1N4002 diodes laying around and tried them. I got 1V drop
using 4
in parallel. Is that really my best way, I would need 8 (I think)
to get me
down to 3V?

Would 4001 make a difference?

Thanks
Click to expand...
Please respond on the bottom of the post... its the convention here.

Try putting 3 in series. That would work better. Also, use a resistor
for your test, maybe 1k.

The number is a code indicating the max reverse voltage you should put
across these, so 1N4002 and 1N4001 are identical unless you are
putting 75V reverse across them, in which case the 1N4001 would break
down, whereas the 1N4002 would prevent current flow (maybe, these are
just what the mfgr guarantees. I'm guessing they probably come out of
the same manufacturing line)

Bob Monsen
 
"Robert C Monsen" <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:whvXc.315957$a24.266828@attbi_s03...
"JoJo" <N@NE.nothing> wrote in message
news:3luXc.111035$4h7.15629286@twister.nyc.rr.com...
"Robert C Monsen" <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pwqXc.320348$%_6.38386@attbi_s01...

"JoJo" <N@NE.nothing> wrote in message
news:1093537501.721040@aragorn...
Thanks for your reply.

I am a newbie at this so I just would like to clarify.

Would these be Zener diodes?

normal diodes are fine, probably better than zeners, because they
are
cheaper. 1N4001 is a good choice for low power applications. You
can
get them most places electronics parts are sold.

If you can explain why this would cause a voltage drop It would
be
of
interest to me.

Its just the way diodes are. They drop a small voltage when passing
current. The current is an exponential function of the voltage, so
for
most purposes, you can assume that they drop around 0.7V no matter
what the current. 10x the current will change this by about 60mV.

The 0.7V is referred to as the barrier potential of the diode.


Do some calculation (or measurements) to
check that within the temperature range you are operating the
changes in
the
diodes threshold voltage are acceptable.

If I understand you, there would be a change in voltage with a
change in
temp. If I am operating at room tempeteture is this a REAL
factor?


The amount of voltage that a diode drops for a given current will
change, depending on temperature. However, its not normally a
concern
for this kind of circuit. The change is around -2.1mV/C, meaning
that
the voltage the thing will drop decreases by 2.1mV for each
increase
of 1 degree C. However, that refers to the temperature of the
junction, not the ambient temperature, and so is also related to
how
much current the thing is passing (self-heating), and the ability
of
the case and leads to transmit heat to the surroundings.

So, I guess you can ignore this if you want.

regards,
-- Bob Monsen




Thanks for the info.

I had some 1N4002 diodes laying around and tried them. I got 1V drop
using 4
in parallel. Is that really my best way, I would need 8 (I think)
to get me
down to 3V?

Would 4001 make a difference?

Thanks




Please respond on the bottom of the post... its the convention here.

Try putting 3 in series. That would work better. Also, use a resistor
for your test, maybe 1k.

The number is a code indicating the max reverse voltage you should put
across these, so 1N4002 and 1N4001 are identical unless you are
putting 75V reverse across them, in which case the 1N4001 would break
down, whereas the 1N4002 would prevent current flow (maybe, these are
just what the mfgr guarantees. I'm guessing they probably come out of
the same manufacturing line)

Bob Monsen
Click to expand...
I tried 3 4001 in series and a 1K both as a load across the 5V and in series
with the diodes.

3 diodes in series - 1K as load = 4.36V (same reading using 4 diodes too)
3 diodes in series - 1K in series =4.75V
 
One possibility is to use this 5V to 3.3V regulator:

http://www.ociw.edu/instrumentation/ccd/parts/LM3940.pdf

If you have trouble finding this specialized part, a widely available
adjustable regulator is

http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM117.pdf

which can be programmed to give 3V (or any value from 1.2V to 37V) with two
resistors. The schematic is included on the data sheet.


"JoJo" <N@NE.nothing> wrote in message
news:%YmXc.110659$4h7.15589623@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Can someone help me design a simple dual voltage power supply.

I have some IC's that require 5V and others that require 3V (actually a
battery operated device that I am interfacing to). I want to build a
power
supply that can power both devices.

I was going to use a 7805 for the 5V supply. How should I drop the voltage
for the 3V device. A simple schematic would also help if possible.

Thank you all.

JoJo
Click to expand...
 
"JoJo" <N@NE.nothing> wrote in message
news:6mwXc.111166$4h7.15647526@twister.nyc.rr.com...
I tried 3 4001 in series and a 1K both as a load across the 5V and
in series
with the diodes.

3 diodes in series - 1K as load = 4.36V (same reading using 4 diodes
too)
3 diodes in series - 1K in series =4.75V
Click to expand...
Here is some information that might be helpful, some of which you
might already know.

(please view in courier font)

On real schematics, the symbol for a diode is a filled in black arrow
with a line on the point. The line on the diagram corresponds to the
line on the actual diode. This is an ascii equivalent:

->|-

Current flows in the direction of the arrow, from left to right, when
you put voltage across it.

This is the ascii symbol for a resistor:

--/\/\/---

Series means end to end, whereas parallel means all ends tied
together.

Series:
1k
5V ---->|---->|---->|----/\/\/--- GND

Parallel:

+--->|----+
| | 1k
5V-+--->|----+--/\/\/--- GND
| |
+--->|----+

If you put them in series, then the voltage across the resistor shown
will be about 2.9V. Replacing the resistor with your circuit that
requires 3V is what the original responder was saying.

If you put them in parallel, then the voltage across the resistor will
be about 4.3V. This is probably not what you want, cause it doesn't
drop the voltage to near 3 volts for the remainder of the series
elements.

If you don't have a series resistor, like this

Series:

5V ---->|---->|---->|--- GND

or

Parallel:

+--->|----+
| |
5V-+--->|----+---- GND
| |
+--->|----+

then you are shorting out your 5V supply, and probably pulling the
supply down to 4.75 by trying to suck far too much current through it.
Don't do this, you will burn out your power supply and fry your
diodes. You should always have a resistor, or something that provides
resistance between the 5V and GND terminals.

One other thing, a Zener diode is a special diode, which is used
reversed from the usual orientation (the line points to the positive
side.) It works by preventing current from flowing until a voltage
threshold is reached, and then allowing allowing a virtual short above
that. If you put it in series with a resistor, and put more voltage
across it than the voltage rating of the zener, the voltage across the
zener will be approximately the voltage limit, and the voltage across
the resistor will be whatever is left over, that is, V+ - V- - Vzener.

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Bob Monsen
 
"Robert C Monsen" <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:OOAXc.52818$9d6.20002@attbi_s54...
"JoJo" <N@NE.nothing> wrote in message
news:6mwXc.111166$4h7.15647526@twister.nyc.rr.com...


I tried 3 4001 in series and a 1K both as a load across the 5V and
in series
with the diodes.

3 diodes in series - 1K as load = 4.36V (same reading using 4 diodes
too)
3 diodes in series - 1K in series =4.75V



Here is some information that might be helpful, some of which you
might already know.

(please view in courier font)

On real schematics, the symbol for a diode is a filled in black arrow
with a line on the point. The line on the diagram corresponds to the
line on the actual diode. This is an ascii equivalent:

->|-

Current flows in the direction of the arrow, from left to right, when
you put voltage across it.

This is the ascii symbol for a resistor:

--/\/\/---

Series means end to end, whereas parallel means all ends tied
together.

Series:
1k
5V ---->|---->|---->|----/\/\/--- GND

Parallel:

+--->|----+
| | 1k
5V-+--->|----+--/\/\/--- GND
| |
+--->|----+

If you put them in series, then the voltage across the resistor shown
will be about 2.9V. Replacing the resistor with your circuit that
requires 3V is what the original responder was saying.

If you put them in parallel, then the voltage across the resistor will
be about 4.3V. This is probably not what you want, cause it doesn't
drop the voltage to near 3 volts for the remainder of the series
elements.

If you don't have a series resistor, like this

Series:

5V ---->|---->|---->|--- GND

or

Parallel:

+--->|----+
| |
5V-+--->|----+---- GND
| |
+--->|----+

then you are shorting out your 5V supply, and probably pulling the
supply down to 4.75 by trying to suck far too much current through it.
Don't do this, you will burn out your power supply and fry your
diodes. You should always have a resistor, or something that provides
resistance between the 5V and GND terminals.

One other thing, a Zener diode is a special diode, which is used
reversed from the usual orientation (the line points to the positive
side.) It works by preventing current from flowing until a voltage
threshold is reached, and then allowing allowing a virtual short above
that. If you put it in series with a resistor, and put more voltage
across it than the voltage rating of the zener, the voltage across the
zener will be approximately the voltage limit, and the voltage across
the resistor will be whatever is left over, that is, V+ - V- - Vzener.

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Bob Monsen


Thanks for clarifying, worked like a charm :)
Click to expand...
 
JoJo wrote:


I was going to use a 7805 for the 5V supply. How should I drop the voltage
for the 3V device. A simple schematic would also help if possible.
Click to expand...
This depends on how much current you need on the 3 V line, and how
precise the voltage needs to be.

For low-power devices normally powered from a battery (whose voltage
changes with age) a simple resistor may be sufficient. Measure the
current and then calculate the resitor required to drop 2 V by Ohms law
(R = 2 V / current).

Resistor
+5 V in o-----/\/\/\-----o +3 V out

If the voltage required needs to be better regulated, use a resistor of
somewhat lower value than calculated above and a 3 V Zener diode:

Resistor
+5 V in o-----/\/\/\-----o +3 V out
|
|
-----
/ /\ Zener Diode
/ \ 3V
----
|
|
--- Gnd
 
On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:09:41 +0200, Dr Engelbert Buxbaum
<engelbert_buxbaum@hotmail.com> wrote:

the 7805 is a voltage regulator
also don't forget to calculate the wattage of your resistor
which is " current" X " voltage"
you could also use two 7805's..the 1st one is for straight 5 volts
the 2nd one is for the 3 volts..(put your series resistor from the
supply to the input of the 7805)..also don't forget to put a large cap
...1000 mfd on the input leg to gnd..and a smaller cap..100 mfd on the
output pin to gnd..
depending on the case type for your 7805..whether it is a power type
usually 1 amp rating or a signal style case usually less than 100
ma..you may have to heat sink the case..
also note that your input to the 5v 7805 must be approx two volts
higher ..perhaps 7 volts to get the two volt differential needed for
the circuit to function..so use the higher input voltage to calculate
the resistance drop..and wattage value
I believe the 7805 is also thermally protected in case you overload
it..the output will drop to a very low value until you remove the
excessive load..
hope this helps your design..

JoJo wrote:


I was going to use a 7805 for the 5V supply. How should I drop the voltage
for the 3V device. A simple schematic would also help if possible.

This depends on how much current you need on the 3 V line, and how
precise the voltage needs to be.

For low-power devices normally powered from a battery (whose voltage
changes with age) a simple resistor may be sufficient. Measure the
current and then calculate the resitor required to drop 2 V by Ohms law
(R = 2 V / current).

Resistor
+5 V in o-----/\/\/\-----o +3 V out

If the voltage required needs to be better regulated, use a resistor of
somewhat lower value than calculated above and a 3 V Zener diode:

Resistor
+5 V in o-----/\/\/\-----o +3 V out
|
|
-----
/ /\ Zener Diode
/ \ 3V
----
|
|
--- Gnd
Click to expand...
 
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