Need Cable TV expert - I have questions

[Mike]

I have a few questions about (analog) cable TV. The repair man is
coming in a few days and I want some info so I know exactly what we're
both talking about. So if anyone can answer any of these questions I
would be truly grateful.

1. Should inside cables be replaced after a certain amount of time? If
so, after how many years?
2. Should outside exposed cables be replaced after a certain amount of
time? If so, after how many years?
3. What kind of cable should be used in the house, r59? Or something
else?
4. What kind of cable should be used outside if it's going to be
exposed (like if it goes up on the roof and on the side of the house
where the sun hits it)?
5. What kind of cable should be used underground? At one point the
phone company cut the cable and it had to be replaced and I get the
feeling it was replaced with some cheap crap.
6. What would make the reception worse after the underground cable was
replaced?


Thanks in advance for any answers you can provide. I'd ask the cable
guy but every guy that comes out here always tells me something
different so I never know what to believe.

 

[exray]

Mike wrote:

I have a few questions about (analog) cable TV. The repair man is
coming in a few days and I want some info so I know exactly what we're
both talking about. So if anyone can answer any of these questions I
would be truly grateful.

1. Should inside cables be replaced after a certain amount of time? If
so, after how many years?
2. Should outside exposed cables be replaced after a certain amount of
time? If so, after how many years?

Not necessarily. Many companies do routinely replace outdoor drops if
they are beyond a certain age but this is more a matter of leakage
control rather than anything due to aging. We're talking >10 years old.
Nowadays the push is for cable internet and this often requires that
the older cables be upgraded to a higher shielding than what might have
been used years ago.
Neither has much to do with the customers reception, its more of a
house-keeping job for the cable company.

3. What kind of cable should be used in the house, r59? Or something
else?

RG-6 is preferred with tri- or quad- shield if there is internet service
on the system. 59 is frowned on both for loss and the fact that its
probably so old it only has minimal shielding. Its rare to find a cable
company using 59 anymore.

4. What kind of cable should be used outside if it's going to be
exposed (like if it goes up on the roof and on the side of the house
where the sun hits it)?

Same RG-6. CATV cable is quite rugged in respect to UV breakdown.
There was some bad stuff made during the oil shortage back in the 70s
but I'm sure its all gone by now and I haven't seen that problem again
for 25-30 years.

5. What kind of cable should be used underground? At one point the
phone company cut the cable and it had to be replaced and I get the
feeling it was replaced with some cheap crap.

I don't know about cheap crap because none of the CATV vendors sell what
I would call cheap crap. Its all much better quality than you're going
to find in a retail store. Underground cable, again typically RG-6 with
tri/quad shield, normally has a sticky "flooding compound" between the
jacket and the braid to discourage moisture ingress. Without the
flooding compound it won't last very long underground in most areas.

6. What would make the reception worse after the underground cable was
replaced?

Bad connector (common), Bad piece of cable (rare), cable damaged during
burial (common), bad device where it is connected on either end.

Thanks in advance for any answers you can provide. I'd ask the cable
guy but every guy that comes out here always tells me something
different so I never know what to believe.

Cable installation is basically an entry level job and these fellas
usually don't have much in the way of technical orientation. The guys
who bury drops are often contractors from a landscaping company and know
even less. And on the other end of the stick, the good technical people
don't deal with simple installation troubleshooting. So yeah, there's
often a gap there.

I take it that you suspect your drop is bad or something like that?
Thats a simple matter of measuring the signal level going into it and
seeing what comes out at the other end. An installer should be able to
handle that. Most companies use a high channel around 450 MHz and a low
channel around 2 or 3 for routine testing. In the case of RG-6 the loss
could be expected to be 4.0db and 1.32db respectively per 100 feet.
There's no connector loss to add in but don't forget to add in 4db for
any 2-way splits.

HTH,
Bill M

 

[Mike]

The cable guy was out here today and I found out several interesting
things that I'd like opinions on.

1. The guy says that there's hardly any signal coming into the house.
So the signal will have to be boosted at the tap. He also said that we
are the only house hooked up to this tap. Everyone else on this road
gets their cable from another tap on the same road. The road is a very
short, dead-end, private road so I find this to be a little weird. I
told the guy that for the past 8 years every time the cable co. comes
out here which is usually twice a year they boost the signal and it
does absolutely nothing. He couldn't figure that out. Anyone got any
ideas about this?

2. About 2 years ago and 6 months ago the cable from the tap to our
house was cut. The first time it was supposed to be replaced but I
don't know if it was or not. The second time it was supposed to be
completely replaced but my dad says it was partially replaced and
spliced together. He says the cable that they did replace was RG59
instead of RG6 so that the RG6 and RG59 were spliced together. Is that
bad?

3. I found out that the wiring inside the house was different than
what I was told it was years ago. The cable is split at the house
where the first split goes into the basement and is split again. One
split goes to the 1st floor family room and the other split goes to
the 1st floor bedroom. The second split from the outside ends up going
up along the side of the house (where it is exposed to sun, snow,
rain, etc.) to the attic where it is split. One split goes down to the
2nd floor bedroom and the other split goes down into another 2nd floor
bedroom.
What I ended up doing after the cable guy left was remove the 1st
splitter and hooked it up so that the cable from outside goes to the
one in the attic and the one that went to the basement was completely
disconnected. This did improve the pictures on the two 2nd floor TVs
so that all of the channels were viewable but they were all still
extremely snowy. So then I changed it so that the attic cable was
disconnected and the basement cable was connected and the two 1st
floor TVs got almost crystal clear reception. There was hardly any
snow on any of the channels.
So wouldn't that mean that the exposed cable that goes onto the side
of the house into the attic was damaged? The connections are all fine,
nothing is lose. Well, the cable co. doesn't want to believe this and
they won't fix this problem. They want to believe that it's the low
signal but it's obviously not just that.

4. The guy did say that it's possible that the main line which I
assume is the one that goes from the tap back to the cable co. could
be damaged. But then wouldn't there be other people on that same line
and wouldn't they have problems too? It appears to be just us. I think
there are two taps on the private road from which we get the cable. We
are the only people using the one tap and the other one is shared by I
guess about 8-10 other houses if that's possible. As far as I know,
none of them have problems. We've had this problem for at least 8
years but it just keeps getting worse every year and especially every
summer. Any opinions on this?

Now I should say that we have a contract with the cable company that
clearly states that we get free cable for life. This is due to the
cable company who originally installed the cable making a huge
"boo-boo." I'm now wondering if this is why our cable is so crappy.
The contract says we get free cable, it never said anything about
giving us viewable/clear cable.
I don't know what to do at this point. It was suggested by others that
I call the local franchise authority but I didn't know that they were
run by the county government. Since that's the case I have a strong
feeling that they won't help one single bit due to reasons I'd rather
not share. If they refuse to help, who else can I contact? Does the
FCC handle problems like this? I really hate getting a lawyer involved
but why should I have to pay for someone else's stupidity and
mistakes. I suppose I could try calling the main cable office wherever
that is located, think that would work?

So any helpful/productive opinions and advice would be greatly
appreciated.

 

[Ken Weitzel]

Mike wrote:

The cable guy was out here today and I found out several interesting
things that I'd like opinions on.

1. The guy says that there's hardly any signal coming into the house.
So the signal will have to be boosted at the tap. He also said that we
are the only house hooked up to this tap. Everyone else on this road
gets their cable from another tap on the same road. The road is a very
short, dead-end, private road so I find this to be a little weird. I
told the guy that for the past 8 years every time the cable co. comes
out here which is usually twice a year they boost the signal and it
does absolutely nothing. He couldn't figure that out. Anyone got any
ideas about this?

2. About 2 years ago and 6 months ago the cable from the tap to our
house was cut. The first time it was supposed to be replaced but I
don't know if it was or not. The second time it was supposed to be
completely replaced but my dad says it was partially replaced and
spliced together. He says the cable that they did replace was RG59
instead of RG6 so that the RG6 and RG59 were spliced together. Is that
bad?

3. I found out that the wiring inside the house was different than
what I was told it was years ago. The cable is split at the house
where the first split goes into the basement and is split again. One
split goes to the 1st floor family room and the other split goes to
the 1st floor bedroom. The second split from the outside ends up going
up along the side of the house (where it is exposed to sun, snow,
rain, etc.) to the attic where it is split. One split goes down to the
2nd floor bedroom and the other split goes down into another 2nd floor
bedroom.
What I ended up doing after the cable guy left was remove the 1st
splitter and hooked it up so that the cable from outside goes to the
one in the attic and the one that went to the basement was completely
disconnected. This did improve the pictures on the two 2nd floor TVs
so that all of the channels were viewable but they were all still
extremely snowy. So then I changed it so that the attic cable was
disconnected and the basement cable was connected and the two 1st
floor TVs got almost crystal clear reception. There was hardly any
snow on any of the channels.
So wouldn't that mean that the exposed cable that goes onto the side
of the house into the attic was damaged? The connections are all fine,
nothing is lose. Well, the cable co. doesn't want to believe this and
they won't fix this problem. They want to believe that it's the low
signal but it's obviously not just that.

4. The guy did say that it's possible that the main line which I
assume is the one that goes from the tap back to the cable co. could
be damaged. But then wouldn't there be other people on that same line
and wouldn't they have problems too? It appears to be just us. I think
there are two taps on the private road from which we get the cable. We
are the only people using the one tap and the other one is shared by I
guess about 8-10 other houses if that's possible. As far as I know,
none of them have problems. We've had this problem for at least 8
years but it just keeps getting worse every year and especially every
summer. Any opinions on this?

Now I should say that we have a contract with the cable company that
clearly states that we get free cable for life. This is due to the
cable company who originally installed the cable making a huge
"boo-boo." I'm now wondering if this is why our cable is so crappy.
The contract says we get free cable, it never said anything about
giving us viewable/clear cable.
I don't know what to do at this point. It was suggested by others that
I call the local franchise authority but I didn't know that they were
run by the county government. Since that's the case I have a strong
feeling that they won't help one single bit due to reasons I'd rather
not share. If they refuse to help, who else can I contact? Does the
FCC handle problems like this? I really hate getting a lawyer involved
but why should I have to pay for someone else's stupidity and
mistakes. I suppose I could try calling the main cable office wherever
that is located, think that would work?

So any helpful/productive opinions and advice would be greatly
appreciated.

Hi...

I can't speak for the USA, but I'd think if the cable
company is providing you with a signal that provides
good reception to one set with no splitter is fine, then
they're meeting their obligation to you.

Regardless, get rid of those splitters... each split
costs you 3db - and if I read you right you have
splitters that go on to be split again. Don't do that.

What you need is either to use one tv set, or...

Buy (for only a few bucks) an amplified splitter.
Install this near to where the cable companies input
to your house is. (indoors, of course) Then from that
point connect a plain line to each of the sets you
want to operate - in other words no more splits
along the way!

Hope this helps.

Ken

 

[exray]

Mike wrote:

The cable guy was out here today and I found out several interesting
things that I'd like opinions on.

1. The guy says that there's hardly any signal coming into the house.
So the signal will have to be boosted at the tap.

That sounds like a cop out. There is very little range of signal that
can be played with to where "boosting at the tap" can get you out of the
"hardly any signal" category. Maybe it was an unfortunate choice of
terminology on his part. Add to that the fact that it sounds like you
are physically located at and end of a line which means there may be no
more signal available.

I should preface this by saying that when a system is designed all of
the taps have essentially the same signal level output throughout the
entire plant. Doesn't matter if you're the first house from the headend
or the last house out on a deadend rural cul-de-sac. The design is
based on getting the required FCC signal level to a set taking into
account an average length drop, and a couple of splitters...the exact
details are chosen by the company and would generally apply system wide.
Where long drops exist they are typically noted on the original
engineering study and dropping a tap value by 6 db or so may be done to
accomodate the exception.



He also said that we

are the only house hooked up to this tap. Everyone else on this road
gets their cable from another tap on the same road. The road is a very
short, dead-end, private road so I find this to be a little weird.

There's generally a tap on any pole where electric service feeds a
residence.

I

told the guy that for the past 8 years every time the cable co. comes
out here which is usually twice a year they boost the signal and it
does absolutely nothing. He couldn't figure that out. Anyone got any
ideas about this?

See above.

2. About 2 years ago and 6 months ago the cable from the tap to our
house was cut. The first time it was supposed to be replaced but I
don't know if it was or not. The second time it was supposed to be
completely replaced but my dad says it was partially replaced and
spliced together. He says the cable that they did replace was RG59
instead of RG6 so that the RG6 and RG59 were spliced together. Is that
bad?

You can certainly splice together 6 and 59 but I wonder why they didn't
replace the whole drop? I'm assuming this is an underground drop since
it got cut. Are there physical limitations (like a paved driveway that
has been added since original burial) that would make them reluctant to
replace the entire drop? The fact that your original drop is 59 sez its
pretty old and most good cable companies would replace it on general
principle.
If the drop is indeed in poor cndx (based on signal level measurements,
not guesswork) and they aren't forthcoming to replace it because of
physical obstructions, you might want to consider opening a trench, etc
for them since after all you're getting service gratis. You shouldn't
have to but principle and resolving the problem are two different things.

3. I found out that the wiring inside the house was different ...
What I ended up doing after the cable guy left was remove the 1st
splitter and hooked it up so that the cable from outside goes to the
one in the attic and the one that went to the basement was completely
disconnected. This did improve the pictures on the two 2nd floor TVs
so that all of the channels were viewable but they were all still
extremely snowy. So then I changed it so that the attic cable was
disconnected and the basement cable was connected and the two 1st
floor TVs got almost crystal clear reception. There was hardly any
snow on any of the channels.
So wouldn't that mean that the exposed cable that goes onto the side
of the house into the attic was damaged? The connections are all fine,
nothing is lose. Well, the cable co. doesn't want to believe this and
they won't fix this problem. They want to believe that it's the low
signal but it's obviously not just that.

Hard to say. There should be enough signal to run 4 outlets if the drop
is of average length and the internal wiring isn't too funky. With
splitters in a daisy chain fashion (14 db loss at the end) you're losing
substantial signal compared to proper home-run wiring (all outlets
brought to a single point - 7 db loss on all). So thats a factor but
the extra 7db splitter loss wouldn't be the difference between 'almost
crystal clear' and extremely snowy. So yes, there could be a problem
there...maybe not the only problem, though.

4. The guy did say that it's possible that the main line which I
assume is the one that goes from the tap back to the cable co. could
be damaged. But then wouldn't there be other people on that same line
and wouldn't they have problems too?

Not necessarily. If they have a significantly shorter drop, drop run
with RG6, one outlet instead of 4, no bad cable in the attic, no
underground splices sucking up moisture, etc, the level on the entire
line could be screwed up by say 10db and they'd never notice it.

This needn't be a mystery. The tech measures the signal at your tap and
he can know immediately if there's a problem on the line. Its not a
'might be' or 'possibly' scenario. Same thing with your drop and
internal wiring. Ya measure the signal at various points (the tap, the
entry point to the house, at the sets), do some basic first-grade math,
and you determine what is wrong. 15 minutes tops.

It appears to be just us.

Now I should say that we have a contract with the cable company that
clearly states that we get free cable for life. This is due to the
cable company who originally installed the cable making a huge
"boo-boo." I'm now wondering if this is why our cable is so crappy.
The contract says we get free cable, it never said anything about
giving us viewable/clear cable.

Shouldn't be an issue.

I don't know what to do at this point. It was suggested by others that
I call the local franchise authority but I didn't know that they were
run by the county government. Since that's the case I have a strong
feeling that they won't help one single bit due to reasons I'd rather
not share.

I know these type of scenarios. Make the complaint anyway. Working most
of my life with small independent systems stockholders, county
commissioners and such conflicts of interest needn't be an issue. Its
usually a simple matter of sending one of the first string line techs
out to resolve the issue instead of repeatedly sending out
installer/techs to resolve something that is apparently over their head
because there are multiple borderline problems involved.
/
If they refuse to help, who else can I contact? Does the

FCC handle problems like this?

Yeah, but...

I really hate getting a lawyer involved

but why should I have to pay for someone else's stupidity and
mistakes. I suppose I could try calling the main cable office wherever
that is located, think that would work?

Lawyer can't help. My 2 cents worth sez to call the 'main' office if
there is such a thing for your system. You haven't mentioned if its an
independent local system, some backwater branch of a large system, etc.
It makes a huge difference in how they operate. You need to go over
the head of the flunkies they are sending out on the service call.
Installer techs are generally not permitted to mess with the 'main' line
and aren't generally not all that savvy to start with. And although
your entire installation may merit re-doing he's not going to tackle
that on a routine service call. It seems like there's a lot of
buck-passing going on and you may indeed have more than one problem.

Call the 'main office' and try to get somebody other than the person on
the phone who simply fills in trouble call forms to pass to someone
else. That may well be impossible. If that gets no results, do the
same thing in writing to the manager of the outfit. If that doesn't
work, copy all that to the franchising authority. After that, copy it
all to the FCC. And don't wait months between each step.

As part of engineering management I have personally experienced dozens
of situations like this and in many cases my first notice that there was
a problem was a complaint from the franchising authority and in a couple
of cases, the FCC. The 'techs' had supposedly fixed it or had the
customer on hold forever waiting for 'somebody to come back next week'.

So any helpful/productive opinions and advice would be greatly
appreciated.

All ranting aside, you need to break the logjam. You should be on the
horn today saying the guy came out and didn't fix it. Put some pressure
on them or nothing will change from what you have done for the past 8 years.

Or get DirectTV and be finished with them!

-Bill M

 

[Mike]

exray <dontspamme-exray@coqui.net> wrote in message news:<1060cnlsgtot78@corp.supernews.com>...

Mike wrote:
The cable guy was out here today and I found out several interesting
things that I'd like opinions on.

1. The guy says that there's hardly any signal coming into the house.
So the signal will have to be boosted at the tap.

That sounds like a cop out. There is very little range of signal that
can be played with to where "boosting at the tap" can get you out of the
"hardly any signal" category. Maybe it was an unfortunate choice of
terminology on his part. Add to that the fact that it sounds like you
are physically located at and end of a line which means there may be no
more signal available.

I should preface this by saying that when a system is designed all of
the taps have essentially the same signal level output throughout the
entire plant. Doesn't matter if you're the first house from the headend
or the last house out on a deadend rural cul-de-sac. The design is
based on getting the required FCC signal level to a set taking into
account an average length drop, and a couple of splitters...the exact
details are chosen by the company and would generally apply system wide.
Where long drops exist they are typically noted on the original
engineering study and dropping a tap value by 6 db or so may be done to
accomodate the exception.



He also said that we
are the only house hooked up to this tap. Everyone else on this road
gets their cable from another tap on the same road. The road is a very
short, dead-end, private road so I find this to be a little weird.

There's generally a tap on any pole where electric service feeds a
residence.

I
told the guy that for the past 8 years every time the cable co. comes
out here which is usually twice a year they boost the signal and it
does absolutely nothing. He couldn't figure that out. Anyone got any
ideas about this?

See above.

2. About 2 years ago and 6 months ago the cable from the tap to our
house was cut. The first time it was supposed to be replaced but I
don't know if it was or not. The second time it was supposed to be
completely replaced but my dad says it was partially replaced and
spliced together. He says the cable that they did replace was RG59
instead of RG6 so that the RG6 and RG59 were spliced together. Is that
bad?

You can certainly splice together 6 and 59 but I wonder why they didn't
replace the whole drop? I'm assuming this is an underground drop since
it got cut. Are there physical limitations (like a paved driveway that
has been added since original burial) that would make them reluctant to
replace the entire drop? The fact that your original drop is 59 sez its
pretty old and most good cable companies would replace it on general
principle.
If the drop is indeed in poor cndx (based on signal level measurements,
not guesswork) and they aren't forthcoming to replace it because of
physical obstructions, you might want to consider opening a trench, etc
for them since after all you're getting service gratis. You shouldn't
have to but principle and resolving the problem are two different things.

3. I found out that the wiring inside the house was different ...
What I ended up doing after the cable guy left was remove the 1st
splitter and hooked it up so that the cable from outside goes to the
one in the attic and the one that went to the basement was completely
disconnected. This did improve the pictures on the two 2nd floor TVs
so that all of the channels were viewable but they were all still
extremely snowy. So then I changed it so that the attic cable was
disconnected and the basement cable was connected and the two 1st
floor TVs got almost crystal clear reception. There was hardly any
snow on any of the channels.
So wouldn't that mean that the exposed cable that goes onto the side
of the house into the attic was damaged? The connections are all fine,
nothing is lose. Well, the cable co. doesn't want to believe this and
they won't fix this problem. They want to believe that it's the low
signal but it's obviously not just that.

Hard to say. There should be enough signal to run 4 outlets if the drop
is of average length and the internal wiring isn't too funky. With
splitters in a daisy chain fashion (14 db loss at the end) you're losing
substantial signal compared to proper home-run wiring (all outlets
brought to a single point - 7 db loss on all). So thats a factor but
the extra 7db splitter loss wouldn't be the difference between 'almost
crystal clear' and extremely snowy. So yes, there could be a problem
there...maybe not the only problem, though.

4. The guy did say that it's possible that the main line which I
assume is the one that goes from the tap back to the cable co. could
be damaged. But then wouldn't there be other people on that same line
and wouldn't they have problems too?

Not necessarily. If they have a significantly shorter drop, drop run
with RG6, one outlet instead of 4, no bad cable in the attic, no
underground splices sucking up moisture, etc, the level on the entire
line could be screwed up by say 10db and they'd never notice it.

This needn't be a mystery. The tech measures the signal at your tap and
he can know immediately if there's a problem on the line. Its not a
'might be' or 'possibly' scenario. Same thing with your drop and
internal wiring. Ya measure the signal at various points (the tap, the
entry point to the house, at the sets), do some basic first-grade math,
and you determine what is wrong. 15 minutes tops.

Well, I don't know what the maintenance tech did at the tap but the
cable went from being so snowy you couldn't see it to being nearly
crystal clear. It hasn't been like that in several years. I think they
did more than just boosting the signal. I thought they mentioned
something about changing ports but I'm not sure. They're coming back
out this week so I'll ask then.

The only things I know is what's on the work order agreement. It says
there is/was a code 42 and code 51. It also has that it was 2/7 at the
tap.
The signal levels on CH 3 were +3T ? (can't read the writing) and CH
70 was +7 T or P. Maybe someone here can make something out of all
that and perhaps translate it into English for me. lol.

Anyways, I got the maintenance tech's and the install tech's work cell
phone numbers. The guys were very helpful and upset that this problem
has gone on so long. So they said to call them if I have any problems
getting everything taken care of. (And yes, these are legit numbers, I
checked.)

 

[Mark]

In article
<3e7445e7.0403280456.43903104@posting.google.com>,
littleboyblu87@yahoo.com says...

The only things I know is what's on the work order agreement. It says
there is/was a code 42 and code 51.

The codes are internal to the local company. Don't know
what they mean.

It also has that it was 2/7 at the
tap.
The signal levels on CH 3 were +3T ? (can't read the writing) and CH
70 was +7 T or P. Maybe someone here can make something out of all
that and perhaps translate it into English for me. lol.

Those are the dB readings they're getting at the tap ("T").

The signal should enter your house (in fact the provider is
Obligated to see that it does) at 0 to +10, so it looks like
you're in good shape. They're testing on channel 2 and
channel 70, probably because that's the lowest and highest
channels (in frequency) they carry. CATV tends to roll of
as the frequency increases, so this is a necessary and valid
test of the over-all system. 0 to +10 should also be the
signal level at all your devices, which, depending on the
internal cabling, may require amps and pads to achieve.
--
Mark

The truth as I perceive it to be.
Your perception may be different.

Triple Z is spam control.

 

[exray]

Mike wrote:

The only things I know is what's on the work order agreement. It says
there is/was a code 42 and code 51. It also has that it was 2/7 at the
tap.

Dunno their 'codes' . Probably something internal. That tap value
(most people would call it 7/2 but no matter) means they can't adjust it
any further. Thats the lowest available value...ie max sig that can be had.

The signal levels on CH 3 were +3T ? (can't read the writing) and CH
70 was +7 T or P. Maybe someone here can make something out of all
that and perhaps translate it into English for me. lol.

If those levels are at your set you're in fine shape. Thats a bit on
the low side coming out of a tap but not intolerable for a single outlet
in your house. Since you have 4 outlets you might want to consider a
little cheapo distribution amp.

Anyways, I got the maintenance tech's and the install tech's work cell
phone numbers. The guys were very helpful and upset that this problem
has gone on so long. So they said to call them if I have any problems
getting everything taken care of. (And yes, these are legit numbers, I
checked.)

Glad to hear they are co-operating. Sometimes you just have to shake
the tree hard enough!

-Bill