my washing machine, again

[Jon Elson]

We have a Kenmore 110.28082700 washing machine that I've done a lot of work
on over the years. These seem to be famous for getting an "LF" long-fill
error. Well, we started getting that again, and after a good deal of
fooling around and false starts, the problem came down to valves operating
at the wrong time. I STILL have no idea why, but I know what it isn't.

There's a pressure sensor used to detect water level. I took it off the
board and tested it, and it appears to work as desired. it has a part
number that doesn't match anything on Digi-Key, but it is clearly an NXM
sensor similar to a bunch of models Digi-Key does carry, and that was enough
to be able to power it and test it.

The design of the water valves is this: There is a hot and a cold inlet
valve, and a thermistor. Then, this goes to a manifold with 4 valves. It
can dispense directly into the basket, and this works fine at a fast flow.
Or, it can dispense into the detergent cup, the softener cup or the bleach
cup, to send those solutions into the wash. These run very slow, so as not
to overflow the cups.

So, what we see is the basket fills for a while with the direct valve, then
that shuts off, and it fills the rest of the required water level from the
detergent cup, ONLY. This takes so long (it can take up to 45 MINUTES!!)
that the machine stops with the LF error several times before it gets to the
washing stage. I can see why it turns on the detergent valve, to add the
detergent to the load, but I do NOT see why it shuts off the direct fill
valve. After trying many tests, replacing the relay for the direct fill
valve, etc. and not fixing it, I finally kludged it. I tied a wire from the
detergent valve to the direct valve so that when EITHER relay is turned on,
it will open both valves. I can't really see a downside to this hack, and
it seems to have solved the problem.

The controller board is $264, and has a VFD for the basket spin/agitate
motor, the pressure sensor and a whole raft of relays to control the two
pumps, 6 valves, heater and door lock. One other relay failed before, and I
replaced that with an SSR. So, I really don't want to replace the thing if
I don't have to. The only things I can come up with that could cause this
behavior are:

1. defect in the microprocessor (seems unlikely)
2. defect in the relay driver chip (I'm guesing it is some
house-labeled Allegro chip) that causes it to shut down
the relay output after several minutes.
3. intermittent connection in the wiring to the valve
The relay has been replaced, and I now have accumulated 3 sets of the valve
manifold assembly trying to keep this machine working. So, it isn't a
defective solenoid coil or valve. (They all fail the same way.)

Anyway, the machine seems to be back working at a reasonable speed per load
without having to keep checking if it stopped.

Any comments?

Jon

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 1:43:02 AM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:

Snippage

Any comments?

Jon

A couple.

a) Some sort of restriction in the flow through the detergent cup. We have an LG that splits the flow when filling, running water through the detergent cup *and* the drum when filling. If yours is different, make sure that the flow through the detergent cup from the pump is unrestricted.
b) The valve that switches from cup to drum may be sticking such that it does not permit full flow when in the detergent position.

I try to look for simple mechanical issues before looking to software/electronic problems. As you state you have additional valve assemblies, I would suggest you tear one down via destructive demolition and see how it 'goes'. That may give you a clue as to what is going on now.

Good luck with it!

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

Whoops! One more thing. Set the level control higher on the initial fill, if that is in any way adjustable. Then there would be less time required for the remaining fill. If this is a timing fault, that might cure it.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Jon Elson]

pfjw@aol.com wrote:

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 1:43:02 AM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:

Snippage

Any comments?

Jon

A couple.

a) Some sort of restriction in the flow through the detergent cup.

Yup, I thought of that. So, I rigged a length of tube to the detergent
valve. Same result, about a trickle. Yes, there must be a restriction in
the manifold to slow down the flow to these three dispensers, or they'd
overflow all over the inside of the machine. But, I have THREE valve units
aquired during diagnosing of various faults oveer the years, they all do the
same.

We have
an LG that splits the flow when filling, running water through the
detergent cup *and* the drum when filling. If yours is different, make
sure that the flow through the detergent cup from the pump is
unrestricted.
The detergent cup is filled through the water supply, not by a pump.

b) The valve that switches from cup to drum may be sticking
such that it does not permit full flow when in the detergent position.

Well, the direct fill valve is all by itself, upstream of the resriction.
It is not part of the other valves.

I try to look for simple mechanical issues before looking to
software/electronic problems. As you state you have additional valve
assemblies, I would suggest you tear one down via destructive demolition
and see how it 'goes'. That may give you a clue as to what is going on
now.

Well, hate to destroy a "good" valve, they are pretty expensive. I am
pretty sure that the electronics/relays are turning OFF the power to the
direct fill valve, and that it is NOT a problem in the valve/solenoid. The
bypass wire I put in seems to be working, so that any time EITHER relay is
closed, both valves open. So, it seems to have fixed the main complaint,
which was either very long wash cycles or the machine stopping with an error
code. I'm fairly tempted to just stop here, as I can't see a downside to
letting it run indefinitely like this. My wife does not even USE the
detergent cup, or any of the other dispensers, anyway!

Thanks,

Jon

 

[Jon Elson]

pfjw@aol.com wrote:

Whoops! One more thing. Set the level control higher on the initial fill,
if that is in any way adjustable. Then there would be less time required
for the remaining fill. If this is a timing fault, that might cure it.

Well, you do have a control on the amount of water used, by selecting
different cycles - it has about 10, ranging from small load to
sheets/towels. The sheets/towels cycle would get 3 or more LF shutdowns and
take some 30 - 45 minutes to fill the basket enough for the washing action
to start. It now fills for that cycle in maybe 6 minutes with no shutdowns.


But, I have no way to set the times for different parts of the filling.
That's all in the microprocessor. It probably does make that decision based
on either the water level sensor or by deciding when the clutch disengages.
It has one motor that is directly connected to the agitator in the bottom of
the basket. The basket has a spling clutch to the motor shaft, and an air
ring on the bottom. When the tub fills to a certain depth, the basket rises
and disconnects from the motor, allowing it to agitate. Before the
fill/lift/disconnect, it uses the motor to "weigh" the load, via sensing the
rotational inertia.

Jon

 

Hate to say it, but the best solution is to go to a thrift store and get about a 30 old model.

I shall not buy new appliances.

Want more reason for that ? Look up a site called "Made By Monkeys". After reading that for a while you won't want anything new.

 

[Jon Elson]

jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

Hate to say it, but the best solution is to go to a thrift store and get
about a 30 old model.

I shall not buy new appliances.

Want more reason for that ? Look up a site called "Made By Monkeys". After
reading that for a while you won't want anything new.

Well, this thing uses SO MUCH LESS water than our old machine, that it was
immediately clear in our water bills! So, I'm not going back. And, our
water is getting quite expensive, especially as we are billed twice for it!
Once from the tap, then again for the sewer service.

And, aside from this quibble, it works OK. I ***AM*** going to get this
working right, I just have to determine exactly WHAT is failing. By process
of elimination, it EVENTUALLY has to become clear.

New theory is I have MULTIPLE problems. Maybe an intermittently bad relay
and an intermittent solenoid valve, possibly with a bad connection thrown
in, too. I've replaced the valves, again, and the relay, Waiting a few
days to see if the trouble recurs.

Jon

 

And if you want, some junk yards and metal recyclers have a we-buy-all-appliances policy. Call today.

 

[Jon Elson]

Jon Elson wrote:

I've replaced the valves, again, and the relay, Waiting a few
> days to see if the trouble recurs.
Well, it's been over a week, the machine is running great. So, problems
solved until next time! (Yes, there always seems to be a next time!)

Jon

 

[Jon Elson]

bruce2bowser@gmail.com wrote:

And if you want, some junk yards and metal recyclers have a
we-buy-all-appliances policy. Call today.

No way! I spent SERIOUS money for this thing, and intend to wear it out.
I've already replaced the main bearing/seal assembly once, and the drain
pump once. Now that some of the kids have moved out, it only runs one shift
a day, so ought to last a bit longer before major overhauls.

Jon

 

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 1:43:02 AM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:

We have a Kenmore 110.28082700 washing machine that I've done a lot of work
on over the years. These seem to be famous for getting an "LF" long-fill
error. Well, we started getting that again, and after a good deal of
fooling around and false starts, the problem came down to valves operating
at the wrong time. I STILL have no idea why, but I know what it isn't.

There's a pressure sensor used to detect water level. I took it off the
board and tested it, and it appears to work as desired. it has a part
number that doesn't match anything on Digi-Key, but it is clearly an NXM
sensor similar to a bunch of models Digi-Key does carry, and that was enough
to be able to power it and test it.

The design of the water valves is this: There is a hot and a cold inlet
valve, and a thermistor. Then, this goes to a manifold with 4 valves. It
can dispense directly into the basket, and this works fine at a fast flow..
Or, it can dispense into the detergent cup, the softener cup or the bleach
cup, to send those solutions into the wash. These run very slow, so as not
to overflow the cups.

So, what we see is the basket fills for a while with the direct valve, then
that shuts off, and it fills the rest of the required water level from the
detergent cup, ONLY. This takes so long (it can take up to 45 MINUTES!!)
that the machine stops with the LF error several times before it gets to the
washing stage. I can see why it turns on the detergent valve, to add the
detergent to the load, but I do NOT see why it shuts off the direct fill
valve. After trying many tests, replacing the relay for the direct fill
valve, etc. and not fixing it, I finally kludged it. I tied a wire from the
detergent valve to the direct valve so that when EITHER relay is turned on,
it will open both valves. I can't really see a downside to this hack, and
it seems to have solved the problem.

The controller board is $264, and has a VFD for the basket spin/agitate
motor, the pressure sensor and a whole raft of relays to control the two
pumps, 6 valves, heater and door lock. One other relay failed before, and I
replaced that with an SSR. So, I really don't want to replace the thing if
I don't have to. The only things I can come up with that could cause this
behavior are:

1. defect in the microprocessor (seems unlikely)
2. defect in the relay driver chip (I'm guesing it is some
house-labeled Allegro chip) that causes it to shut down
the relay output after several minutes.
3. intermittent connection in the wiring to the valve
The relay has been replaced, and I now have accumulated 3 sets of the valve
manifold assembly trying to keep this machine working. So, it isn't a
defective solenoid coil or valve. (They all fail the same way.)

Anyway, the machine seems to be back working at a reasonable speed per load
without having to keep checking if it stopped.

Any comments?

Jon

Jon
I hate to say it but I have to side with Jurb there. We just recently went through our fifth coffee maker. Each time one of these pieces of shit fails I go down to the basement and get the trusty old GE out of the box. This was a wedding present in 1977 and in spite of the old lady's complaints about how stained it is, etc I've refused to get rid of it. In over 40 years I think I replaced a thermistor in it. Otherwise it's never failed us. (Hey I like the way the old veteran looks on the counter too and I think I've finally convinced her that we just went through our last crappy coffee maker).

I can relate similar stories about our refrigerator, toaster oven, and electric range.

The washing machine though is another story. It's a Maytag A106. Look it up if you want. It was the 1966 model. A simple helical drive piece of technology. My mother gave it to us in 1979 when they moved to Florida. It slid halfway down a flight of stairs while moving it and continued to work for another 20 some odd years until it started leaking. I rebuilt it with tub seals, bearings, transmissiom reseal etc. It was a big job but was worth every penny. I also replaced the motor with one from the town dump at some point over the years too. There are no electronic sensors and no microprocessor. Just a simple electro mechanical design. And it continues to work. Yes it may use a bit more water as well as electricity than one of the a new piece of shit models out there but perhaps one day my grandchildren will be using it. I doubt that you can say the same about anything that is built today.

My dishwasher is a Kenmore and 20 ears old too and also electro mechanical. I just replaced the motor in that last year. Keep your old stuff. because once you get rid of it you've screwed yourself because you can never get it back. Lenny

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

Voice of Dissent here:

We had an old Maytag at our summer house that ran like a champ - and used 40 gallons of water per full cycle. This is water that we have to pump, heat, and then dispose of *on site*. We use propane for heat via a tankless heater, so there is excellent efficiency - but.

We found a used LG "energy star" front loading unit that for the equivalent load uses eight (8) gallons of water per cycle, uses 1/3 of the additives (detergent and/or bleach) and is a good deal more quiet. We paid $250 for it. It runs about 25 loads per year, so that comes to 800 gallons of water saved in a very fragile environment, not to mention the chemicals not used. That we are on a Class A trout stream makes us perhaps more sensitive than some - but the principle is pretty much the same.

The unit has been in place now for four years. So far, so good and it was used.

At home our 8-year old similar LG (and how we came to choose the one at the summer house) runs about 9 loads per week, and has performer flawlessly. We do the maintenance (clean out the drain valve periodically, run a hot/hot with cleaner about twice a year and so forth. But as to its operation - no problems so far of any nature. That comes to about 120,000 gallons of water saved: 32 x 9 x 52 x 8 = 119,808. Again, not to mention the chemicals not used, the energy saved and so forth. Hot water savings alone are $120/year. Electric savings about 1/3 of that, so $160 per year. Assume 0 cost for a vintage Maytag, and $1,200 for the LG - We are now +$80 with whatever more time we get on the LG. I am not factoring in the water cost, or sewer cost as they are directly tied together. But, 120,000 gallons is not insignificant.

It is entirely possible to purchase well made appliances. And with reasonable care, they will last relatively indefinitely.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 1:43:02 AM UTC-5, Jon Elson wrote:

We have a Kenmore 110.28082700 washing machine that I've done a lot of work
on over the years. These seem to be famous for getting an "LF" long-fill
error. Well, we started getting that again, and after a good deal of
fooling around and false starts, the problem came down to valves operating
at the wrong time. I STILL have no idea why, but I know what it isn't.

There's a pressure sensor used to detect water level. I took it off the
board and tested it, and it appears to work as desired. it has a part
number that doesn't match anything on Digi-Key, but it is clearly an NXM
sensor similar to a bunch of models Digi-Key does carry, and that was enough
to be able to power it and test it.

The design of the water valves is this: There is a hot and a cold inlet
valve, and a thermistor. Then, this goes to a manifold with 4 valves. It
can dispense directly into the basket, and this works fine at a fast flow..
Or, it can dispense into the detergent cup, the softener cup or the bleach
cup, to send those solutions into the wash. These run very slow, so as not
to overflow the cups.

So, what we see is the basket fills for a while with the direct valve, then
that shuts off, and it fills the rest of the required water level from the
detergent cup, ONLY. This takes so long (it can take up to 45 MINUTES!!)
that the machine stops with the LF error several times before it gets to the
washing stage. I can see why it turns on the detergent valve, to add the
detergent to the load, but I do NOT see why it shuts off the direct fill
valve. After trying many tests, replacing the relay for the direct fill
valve, etc. and not fixing it, I finally kludged it. I tied a wire from the
detergent valve to the direct valve so that when EITHER relay is turned on,
it will open both valves. I can't really see a downside to this hack, and
it seems to have solved the problem.

The controller board is $264, and has a VFD for the basket spin/agitate
motor, the pressure sensor and a whole raft of relays to control the two
pumps, 6 valves, heater and door lock. One other relay failed before, and I
replaced that with an SSR. So, I really don't want to replace the thing if
I don't have to. The only things I can come up with that could cause this
behavior are:

1. defect in the microprocessor (seems unlikely)
2. defect in the relay driver chip (I'm guesing it is some
house-labeled Allegro chip) that causes it to shut down
the relay output after several minutes.
3. intermittent connection in the wiring to the valve
The relay has been replaced, and I now have accumulated 3 sets of the valve
manifold assembly trying to keep this machine working. So, it isn't a
defective solenoid coil or valve. (They all fail the same way.)

Anyway, the machine seems to be back working at a reasonable speed per load
without having to keep checking if it stopped.

Any comments?

Jon

If you're lucky. Most people aren't though. We were at Best buy shopping for a new refrigerator a few years ago. (Not my idea. My wife couldn't deal with the little bit of rust on the bottom of our 22 year old GE any more). So we donated it to the Boy Scouts and I bit the bullet. Anyway I had done some figuring too. I figured that the damn divorce would have cost me a hell of a lot more than a new refrigerator, so we bought the friggen thing. I mentioned to the sales manager that I was a TV repairman and I commented on the shoddy way things in general were built these days. He took me aside and told me straight out that when buying a major appliance it is now necessary to protect yourself with a service contract. Yes it's a fucking ripoff and I hate paying it every year but we are now on our 4th LG. If I could only get my old GE back.... This is the new norm, and it sucks. And make no mistake, it is the way that dirt bag companies like LG stay in business. Lenny