Musing on RF filters generally

[Cursitor Doom]

Gentlemen,

What is *the* best filter regardless of cost for RF purposes? I mean,
which kind of filter most accurately approximates the *ideal* concept of
a filter in terms of selectivity and whatnot? I'm looking for something
that will in essence pass an unmodulated carrier only and 'eliminate'
both sidebands due to phase noise from it. I want IRO of 140dB or better
down from the (desired) carrier amplitude with as near vertical cut-off
as possible (obviously). Take say 10Mhz as a ball park figure for the
carrier. Any pointers?
TIA.



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

 

[John Miles, KE5FX]

On Sunday, October 27, 2019 at 10:55:59 AM UTC-7, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Gentlemen,

What is *the* best filter regardless of cost for RF purposes? I mean,
which kind of filter most accurately approximates the *ideal* concept of
a filter in terms of selectivity and whatnot? I'm looking for something
that will in essence pass an unmodulated carrier only and 'eliminate'
both sidebands due to phase noise from it. I want IRO of 140dB or better
down from the (desired) carrier amplitude with as near vertical cut-off
as possible (obviously). Take say 10Mhz as a ball park figure for the
carrier. Any pointers?
TIA.

An ADC followed by a CPU.

-- john, KE5FX

 

On Sunday, 27 October 2019 18:05:47 UTC, bule...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> Properly constructed PLL

Or a lock-in amplifier - which is almost the same thing.

John

 

Properly constructed PLL

 

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:55:54 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Gentlemen,

What is *the* best filter regardless of cost for RF purposes? I mean,
which kind of filter most accurately approximates the *ideal* concept of
a filter in terms of selectivity and whatnot? I'm looking for something
that will in essence pass an unmodulated carrier only and 'eliminate'
both sidebands due to phase noise from it. I want IRO of 140dB or better
down from the (desired) carrier amplitude with as near vertical cut-off
as possible (obviously). Take say 10Mhz as a ball park figure for the
carrier. Any pointers?
TIA.

As a real filter, it sounds like you want a crystal filter, which can
be a big deal.

Or as suggested, a PLL, preferably one that uses a very good VCXO.

The best PLL uses a VCOCXO and has distinct acquire and track modes or
a very good phase-frequency detector, to minimize the active bandwidth
once it finds lock.

I've mounted the OCXO on springs, to make it less vibration sensitive.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sph3opu3jb0mg1c/Sprung_Osc_2.JPG?raw=1



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 27.10.19 um 19:26 schrieb John Miles, KE5FX:

An ADC followed by a CPU.

-- john, KE5FX

Then you have a clean plot, but not a clean carrier.

;-) Gerhard, DK4XP

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 11:43:41 -0700, jlarkin wrote:

I've mounted the OCXO on springs, to make it less vibration sensitive.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sph3opu3jb0mg1c/Sprung_Osc_2.JPG?raw=1

Your layout and manufacturing quality has improved vastly over the years,
John. Well done!



--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2019-10-27, Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Gentlemen,

What is *the* best filter regardless of cost for RF purposes?

a superconducting cavity resonator.

I mean,
which kind of filter most accurately approximates the *ideal* concept of
a filter in terms of selectivity and whatnot?

yeah that.

I'm looking for something
that will in essence pass an unmodulated carrier only and 'eliminate'
both sidebands due to phase noise from it. I want IRO of 140dB or better
down from the (desired) carrier amplitude with as near vertical cut-off
as possible (obviously). Take say 10Mhz as a ball park figure for the
carrier. Any pointers?

at 10MHz a cavity resonator could be quite large.

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.

 

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:00:55 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts
<jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2019-10-27, Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> wrote:
Gentlemen,

What is *the* best filter regardless of cost for RF purposes?

a superconducting cavity resonator.

I mean,
which kind of filter most accurately approximates the *ideal* concept of
a filter in terms of selectivity and whatnot?

yeah that.

I'm looking for something
that will in essence pass an unmodulated carrier only and 'eliminate'
both sidebands due to phase noise from it. I want IRO of 140dB or better
down from the (desired) carrier amplitude with as near vertical cut-off
as possible (obviously). Take say 10Mhz as a ball park figure for the
carrier. Any pointers?

at 10MHz a cavity resonator could be quite large.

Helical resonator, vibration mounted. Maybe the size of a trash can.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:09:20 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<curd@notformail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 11:43:41 -0700, jlarkin wrote:

I've mounted the OCXO on springs, to make it less vibration sensitive.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sph3opu3jb0mg1c/Sprung_Osc_2.JPG?raw=1

Your layout and manufacturing quality has improved vastly over the years,
John. Well done!

That is part of the NIF timing system, delivered in the year 2000.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0111046.pdf

One problem was fan vibration, but a bigger problem was the SMB test
connectors. When someone yanked a cable out of the module, the
connector would SNAP! and we'd lose phase lock for a second or so.
This is a bang-bang phase detector with a fast acquire mode and a slow
track mode. The slow mode has super low phase noise and jitter, but is
easily knocked out of lock.






--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 27.10.19 um 18:55 schrieb Cursitor Doom:

Gentlemen,

What is *the* best filter regardless of cost for RF purposes? I mean,
which kind of filter most accurately approximates the *ideal* concept of
a filter in terms of selectivity and whatnot? I'm looking for something
that will in essence pass an unmodulated carrier only and 'eliminate'
both sidebands due to phase noise from it. I want IRO of 140dB or better
down from the (desired) carrier amplitude with as near vertical cut-off
as possible (obviously). Take say 10Mhz as a ball park figure for the
carrier. Any pointers?
TIA.

3 weeks ago, I tried this:

<
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/48970068191/in/dateposted-public/

input - 50 Ohm to 400 Ohm transformer----- 400 Ohm line ----
400-to50-transformer - output.

From the 400 Ohm line to GND are 2 cheap 10 MHz crystals, one with a
35pF series trimmer,

the other with series trimmer and 4.7uH. The xtal resonances thus are 10
MHz +1.6 KHz and -1.6 KHz.

Transformers are 1:8CT Pulse electronics CX2049LNLT digikey
553-2287-1-nd. Autotransformer feature was not used.

The filter costs next to nothing. It won't turn my MV89A references into
BVAs, but gives at least some keyhole insights . There could be easily 5
crystal pairs for strategically chosen frequencies.

For notches closer to the carrier the impedance level must be probably
lower (1:4 or 1:2 xformers). That makes the notches less deep, but also
less wide, so they cannot interact at the carrier frequency itself.

The filter withstands quite a lot of power because the crystals do not
resonate on the carrier frequency. Just make sure you do not sweep them
with +30 dBm accidentally.

If you would build a filter that is resonant on the carrier frequency,
it would impair phase stability of the carrier and the crystal would
blow up at @20 dBm. At -3 dBm (a level that the crystal can survive
in resonance), your signal takes a hit from the thermal noise @ -173 dBm.


On the VNA, the notches looked that way:

<
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/48969532388/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
>

And, using John's array of ADCs and a virtual Win7 CPU, that was the
phase noise result:
Impact of the filter on the phase noise of an R&S SMIQ signal generator.
SMIQ was chosen as an easy victim.

<
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/48970243132/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/
>

Blue: without notch filter, red: with notch filter.

cheers, Gerhard

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 21:57:58 +0100, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

[...]

Blue: without notch filter, red: with notch filter.

cheers, Gerhard

Vielen dank!

 

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:55:54 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Gentlemen,

What is *the* best filter regardless of cost for RF purposes? I mean,
which kind of filter most accurately approximates the *ideal* concept of
a filter in terms of selectivity and whatnot? I'm looking for something
that will in essence pass an unmodulated carrier only and 'eliminate'
both sidebands due to phase noise from it. I want IRO of 140dB or better
down from the (desired) carrier amplitude with as near vertical cut-off
as possible (obviously). Take say 10Mhz as a ball park figure for the
carrier. Any pointers?
TIA.

One ancient wave analyzer method is mixing the incoming spectrum with
a VFO, then using a crystal filter at a convenient fixed frequency to
do the required filtering at a fixed frequency. The filtered signal is
restored to original frequency by mixing it with the _same_ VFO.

These days the crystal filter could be replaced with some DSP
processing, say at 100 kHz. Some analog front end selectivity is
needed ahead of the first mixer and after the second mixer, to avoid
image responses.

 

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 07:08:33 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:55:54 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

Gentlemen,

What is *the* best filter regardless of cost for RF purposes? I mean,
which kind of filter most accurately approximates the *ideal* concept of
a filter in terms of selectivity and whatnot? I'm looking for something
that will in essence pass an unmodulated carrier only and 'eliminate'
both sidebands due to phase noise from it. I want IRO of 140dB or better
down from the (desired) carrier amplitude with as near vertical cut-off
as possible (obviously). Take say 10Mhz as a ball park figure for the
carrier. Any pointers?
TIA.

One ancient wave analyzer method is mixing the incoming spectrum with
a VFO, then using a crystal filter at a convenient fixed frequency to
do the required filtering at a fixed frequency. The filtered signal is
restored to original frequency by mixing it with the _same_ VFO.

That VFO needs high phase stability, because the crystal filter adds
delay and will do fm-to-am modulation. No free lunch.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Simon S Aysdie]

On Sunday, October 27, 2019 at 10:55:59 AM UTC-7, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Gentlemen,

What is *the* best filter regardless of cost for RF purposes? I mean,
which kind of filter most accurately approximates the *ideal* concept of
a filter in terms of selectivity and whatnot? I'm looking for something
that will in essence pass an unmodulated carrier only and 'eliminate'
both sidebands due to phase noise from it. I want IRO of 140dB or better
down from the (desired) carrier amplitude with as near vertical cut-off
as possible (obviously). Take say 10Mhz as a ball park figure for the
carrier. Any pointers?
TIA.

What is "IRO?" Never heard of it. There is no "best" filter.

You may find the needed Q a little challenging:

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