More on Shipping Fuel Costs; Why Globalization Will Continu

Polite discourse appreciated in contrast to the usual flaming.
But lets not forget the costs of shipping cargo to the ship at the dock
in the first place. Its not FOB.

Then too, there is the synergy of the internet, where anyone with
anything to sell no longer needs a big corporation to organize the
means. Small business can spot a local market before the global economy
has figured out it is there. There is likely more faith as well that
future deliveries will be on time and at the agreed price.

The rise to Hubbard's peak oil followed a smooth bell curve, but the
decline is apt to be precipitous; as the price rises, the greed rises,
as the greed goes up so does the use of violence trying to control a
supply of oil, which damages the productive infrastructure.

Which drives down the supply, and drives the price up to re-iterate. One
way to global economy can cope is to abandon less profitable provinces
to anarchy and revolution, stop shipping oil and redirect the remaining
supply to the great power centers. The Byzantines did it for centuries.

So, while the global economy seems to keep going for us, it quit serving
those more obscure poor regions we dont care about. Which will be fine
so long as it does not over look some obscure, but critical, resource
from such a region.

There's also the import of salmonella, e coli, other biologicals, or WMD
and even nukes that will be driving investment in local infrastructure.
 
BretCahill@peoplepc.com wrote:
Maybe blimps could raise the kite.

I'm trying to get a sense of the materials cost (since it seems certain
that a regular ol' parasail would wear out under that much strain), and
what the materials are. Also what wind speed is required to actually help
pull the ship. THe intriguing thing is that it doesn't require all of the
superstructure required for masted sails - also, as teh PDF showed, it
moves freely, so has a far smaller chance of tipping th eship.

INteresting and curious. I'll have to look at this periodically and see
what happens.- Hide quoted text -

Towing a ship requires a steel cable rated at over a thousand tons
[several inches thick].
Now that just depends on how big the ship is, and how "fast" you want to
pull it, and you don't need more strength than the thrust of the pulling
ship at the speed it's being towed

I pulled in a 2500 lb bass boat that got away with a 20 lb fishing
line, yep just cast out and caught the carpet and reeled that baby in
If it's not stainless it will rust and kink.

If it snapped it would probably remove part of the the superstructure.

Brent Spectra rope is ten times the strength of steel (by weight), it
has Zero stretch,

Everything deforms.

thus no spring back if it breaks, I would think this
is what the sail line is made from, a 3/4 " dia. Spectra rope can easily
handle 8 tons, and is real light in weight

From your numbers, 8" thick to tow a ship.
Well I didn't really give you real numbers,, but here are the REAL numbers

2 inch Spectra rope has a working strength of 225,000 lbs

8,000 lb pull was all the kite was supposed to deliver, just helping a
ship along would require a 5/16 inch Spectra rope

8 tons pull, 1/2 inch is a bit over kill having a working load of 22,500 lbs


Bret Cahill

--
SpecTastic Wiggle Rig,
Fishing lure remote control
See lure video you won't believe
http://ezknot.com
 
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 08:54:59 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

"It was unthinkable mere years ago, but globalization is starting to
lose momentum. High and holding fuel prices -- shipping a 40-foot
container from Shanghai to the U.S. will cost ya $5,000 more today
than a decade ago -- are making global supply chains look far less
attractive."

-- Solar Living Inst.

$5,000/container is 12 cents/lb or just 0.001 cents/lb-mile by sea.

A train hauls 1/25th the cargo at 2X the speed with 1/4th the hp of
the ship so the net energy should be 3X more /lb-mile. The ship
engine is 25% more fuel efficient and bunker is 1/2 the cost of diesel
so rail costs 0.01 cents/lb-mile.

Moving a container from China to LA requires the same expenditure on
fuel as moving it from LA to Denver by train.

Semi rig moves 1/400the the cargo of the train at 1/60th the hp for
0.07 cents/lb-mile.

Moving a container from China to LA requires the same expenditure on
fuel as moving it from LA to San Diego by truck.

A PU truck will haul 1/20th that of a semi at 3X the mpg or 0.5 cents/
lb-mi.
So a pickup with 500 lbs of cargo costs $2.50 per mile to operate?
That seems high to me. Of course, if the payload is one box of
breakfast cereal, a pickup isn't an efficient way to transport it.


You travel more than 20 miles in a loaded PU and you might as well go
to China.

In other words, if you restrict your diet to food trucked into your
town you only have a 150 mile radius of local crop land before noodles
from China may start to become competitive on a transportation fuel
cost basis.
So why can I buy a pound of Italian pasta (made from American winter
wheat) for 89 cents?


John
 
Tim Jackson wrote:

"Duane C. Johnson" <redrok@redrok.com> wrote:
Kris Krieger wrote:
"Bob Eld" <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote:

They are now experimenting with large sailing kites

to help pull container ships across the ocean to
reduce the fuel consumed. This method may help keep
water transportation preeminent and competitive.

Is that serious, or a joke?

If it's serious, do you have any links handy?

See:
http://skysails.info/index.php?id=13

TIA!

Duane

That's one hell of a spinnaker.
These are not like a spinnaker.
A spinnaker is essentially a drag sail. Yes, spinnakers
can have some aerodynamic lift but mainly drag.

These kite sails are all airfoil with tremendous
lift forces as opposed to drag forces. Lift forces
allow one to sail up wind.

Could be interesting controlling it in foul weather,
especially if it's up in the clouds.
There are strategies for using them at considerable
height. Generally the wind forces are greater at
increased height greatly increasing their pulling
force.

Control is done by differentially adjusting a pair
of winches.

I have a very nice flexible airfoil stunt kite.
It easily out performs by rigid frame stunt kites
in beating angle and speed.

Don't fancy hauling it back aboard full of water.
I assume you are asking about retrieving the kite after
a mishap and it crashes into the water. Retrieving is
done essentially by winching one cable ahead of the
other. There is relatively little drag doing this.

It's fine for downhill sailing.
Can they do one for beating to windward?
Yes they can. And very well.
Go to a beach on a windy day and you can often see
kite surfers traveling at great speed. They easily
beat into the wind. Usually at greater angles than
conventional sails.

Come back Cutty Sark, all is forgiven.
Kites have a distinct advantage over masted sails.
They are anchored on the deck. This allows for much
greater pulling forces compared to masted sails which
are limited by the how far the boat can heal over.

Since these boats need to heal there is less ballast
required resulting in greater efficiency.

As I recall, the many of the current unlimited
sailing speed records are possessed by sailing kites.
Even faster than the rigid airfoil boats.

Tim Jackson
Duane

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On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 23:03:31 -0700 (PDT), BretCahill@peoplepc.com
wrote:


Everything deforms.
---
Even the proposition that everything deforms?

JF
 

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