Miscibility Gap Alloys Thermal Energy Storage For Renewable Backup...

[server]

Clever technique has been around for a while but this time around they\'re going to capture existing infrastructure of steam turbine driven electric generators in decommissioned coal fired power plants. Projected cost coming in at US$50/kWh which is about 25% of a comparable Ii battery backup.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/australia-newcastle-university-invention-coal-zero-emissions

Conspicuously absent is any mention of efficiency. They won\'t be doing a whole lot of good if the renewable has to be sized 200% larger to facilitate the MGA.

https://www.mgathermal.com/


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_energy_storage_projects

Of course we wouldn\'t need most of this if the global population was reduced by a full 70% as it should be.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, October 10, 2020 at 10:28:39 PM UTC+11, bloggs.fred...@gmail.com wrote:

Clever technique has been around for a while but this time around they\'re going to capture existing infrastructure of steam turbine driven electric generators in decommissioned coal fired power plants. Projected cost coming in at US$50/kWh which is about 25% of a comparable Ii battery backup.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/australia-newcastle-university-invention-coal-zero-emissions

Conspicuously absent is any mention of efficiency. They won\'t be doing a whole lot of good if the renewable has to be sized 200% larger to facilitate the MGA.

https://www.mgathermal.com/


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_energy_storage_projects

snip

The missing energy efficiency numbers aren\'t a surprise. There\'s been a lot of talk over the past few years of moving Australia into the hydrogen economy, where renewable sources produce electrolytic hydrogen which is then liquified and put into tankers to be shipped off to Japan and Korea.

What isn\'t mentioned is that you only deliver about 25% of the energy you put in to electrolyse the water and liquify the hydrogen.

Batteries deliver about 85% of the energy you put in to charge them, even if the energy density is a lot lower. Undersea cables do even better, but don\'t store anything at all.

A bunch of slightly cleverer venture capitalists have put together a project to lay a 3500 km long undersea high voltage line from northern Australia to Singapore.

This would let you generate your energy from a third of the solar farm area that the hydrogen freaks would need to satisfy the same demand.

The hydrogen economy enthusiasts don\'t seem to care, and talk disdainfully about \"thermodynamics\" when you ask them about it.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[server]

On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 04:28:31 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

Clever technique has been around for a while but this time around they\'re going to capture existing infrastructure of steam turbine driven electric generators in decommissioned coal fired power plants. Projected cost coming in at US$50/kWh which is about 25% of a comparable Ii battery backup.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/australia-newcastle-university-invention-coal-zero-emissions

Conspicuously absent is any mention of efficiency. They won\'t be doing a whole lot of good if the renewable has to be sized 200% larger to facilitate the MGA.

https://www.mgathermal.com/


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_energy_storage_projects

Of course we wouldn\'t need most of this if the global population was reduced by a full 70% as it should be.

Do they heat the blocks with resistive heaters? That sounds
impressively inefficient.

Why not just heat a giant tank of water and boil it off as needed?
Water has a huge specific heat and it\'s even cheaper than those
bricks.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Jeff Layman]

On 10/10/2020 12:28, bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

Clever technique has been around for a while but this time around they\'re going to capture existing infrastructure of steam turbine driven electric generators in decommissioned coal fired power plants. Projected cost coming in at US$50/kWh which is about 25% of a comparable Ii battery backup.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/australia-newcastle-university-invention-coal-zero-emissions

That article refers to an 18 months old article for the price of Li-ion
batteries at
<https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-battery-prices/>,
and the price for Li-ion batteries per kW/h has fallen considerably.
According to the 9 June 2020 article at
<https://www.energy-storage.news/news/guidehouse-lithium-battery-cell-prices-to-almost-halve-by-2029>:
\"Today, cell prices are in a range of between US$98.6 per kWh for the
lowest and around US$192.3 per kWh, averaging out at US$122.9 per kWh.\"

--

Jeff

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, October 10, 2020 at 10:52:13 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 04:28:31 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com wrote:

Clever technique has been around for a while but this time around they\'re going to capture existing infrastructure of steam turbine driven electric generators in decommissioned coal fired power plants. Projected cost coming in at US$50/kWh which is about 25% of a comparable Ii battery backup.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/australia-newcastle-university-invention-coal-zero-emissions

Conspicuously absent is any mention of efficiency. They won\'t be doing a whole lot of good if the renewable has to be sized 200% larger to facilitate the MGA.

https://www.mgathermal.com/


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_energy_storage_projects

Of course we wouldn\'t need most of this if the global population was reduced by a full 70% as it should be.
Do they heat the blocks with resistive heaters? That sounds
impressively inefficient.

That would be my guess if the energy source is electric. But some of the contemplated demonstration projects are those concentrated mirror solar power things, so they would probably be heating with that. The blocks are running at very high temperature somewhere in the vicinity of 300 to 1000 degree C. They have to get at least one of their component metals to melt for maximum density heat storage of latent heat, not sensible heat. The components have been chosen so that at least one component has a high enough melting point to remain solid, and thus retain block shape and support, while the lower temperature component melts. The immiscible gap part refers to the property of the metals not alloying at the working temperatures and with phase changes taking place. My guess is the blocks will be in a chamber with vacuum insulation since they\'re looking at a few days storage. I don\'t see how applying electric heat, or heat in any form, to a vacuum insulated material would be inefficient. The inefficiency is going to come in the imperfect heat exchange to fluid source to drive the turbines, and then the operation of the turbine itself.

Why not just heat a giant tank of water and boil it off as needed?
Water has a huge specific heat and it\'s even cheaper than those
bricks.





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, October 10, 2020 at 1:43:55 PM UTC-4, Jeff Layman wrote:

On 10/10/2020 12:28, bloggs.fred...@gmail.com wrote:
Clever technique has been around for a while but this time around they\'re going to capture existing infrastructure of steam turbine driven electric generators in decommissioned coal fired power plants. Projected cost coming in at US$50/kWh which is about 25% of a comparable Ii battery backup.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/australia-newcastle-university-invention-coal-zero-emissions
That article refers to an 18 months old article for the price of Li-ion
batteries at
https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-battery-prices/>,
and the price for Li-ion batteries per kW/h has fallen considerably.
According to the 9 June 2020 article at
https://www.energy-storage.news/news/guidehouse-lithium-battery-cell-prices-to-almost-halve-by-2029>:
\"Today, cell prices are in a range of between US$98.6 per kWh for the
lowest and around US$192.3 per kWh, averaging out at US$122.9 per kWh.\"

There are always additional hidden costs like the high power conversion electronics for one. I\'m not exactly sure, but it seems the price of LI will rise dramatically as the world supplies are drawn down or fall behind demand for other applications like transportation.

--

Jeff

 

[Ricketty C]

On Saturday, October 10, 2020 at 3:06:07 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Saturday, October 10, 2020 at 1:43:55 PM UTC-4, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 10/10/2020 12:28, bloggs.fred...@gmail.com wrote:
Clever technique has been around for a while but this time around they\'re going to capture existing infrastructure of steam turbine driven electric generators in decommissioned coal fired power plants. Projected cost coming in at US$50/kWh which is about 25% of a comparable Ii battery backup.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/australia-newcastle-university-invention-coal-zero-emissions
That article refers to an 18 months old article for the price of Li-ion
batteries at
https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-battery-prices/>,
and the price for Li-ion batteries per kW/h has fallen considerably.
According to the 9 June 2020 article at
https://www.energy-storage.news/news/guidehouse-lithium-battery-cell-prices-to-almost-halve-by-2029>:
\"Today, cell prices are in a range of between US$98.6 per kWh for the
lowest and around US$192.3 per kWh, averaging out at US$122.9 per kWh.\"

There are always additional hidden costs like the high power conversion electronics for one. I\'m not exactly sure, but it seems the price of LI will rise dramatically as the world supplies are drawn down or fall behind demand for other applications like transportation.

World supplies of what, lithium? Do you really think no one is dealing with that problem? There are tons of investment in lithium production right now. That\'s one of the things all the car companies are doing, making sure they have long term supplies of batteries.

Cobalt is actually the limiting factor in cost and quantity of li-ion batteries. That\'s why it is being replaced.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 1:52:13 AM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 04:28:31 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com wrote:

Clever technique has been around for a while but this time around they\'re going to capture existing infrastructure of steam turbine driven electric generators in decommissioned coal fired power plants. Projected cost coming in at US$50/kWh which is about 25% of a comparable Ii battery backup.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/australia-newcastle-university-invention-coal-zero-emissions

Conspicuously absent is any mention of efficiency. They won\'t be doing a whole lot of good if the renewable has to be sized 200% larger to facilitate the MGA.

https://www.mgathermal.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_energy_storage_projects

Of course we wouldn\'t need most of this if the global population was reduced by a full 70% as it should be.
Do they heat the blocks with resistive heaters? That sounds
impressively inefficient.

Why not just heat a giant tank of water and boil it off as needed?
Water has a huge specific heat and it\'s even cheaper than those
bricks.

Bizarre idea. The whole point of the blocks is that the exploit the latent heat of fusion - molten metal gives up a lot of energy when it solidifies.

Water does it when it freezes to ice, but that happens at zero Celcius. The latent heat of vaporisation of water is lot higher - 2230 joules per gram versus 334 - but storing superheated steam is difficult.

The super-critical point for water is at 647.096K, at a pressure of 217.755 atmospheres, when it has a density of 0.322 gram/cc (about a third of that of liquid water). You could have a very large high pressure tank of that, but you\'d want to protect it from terrorists.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney