Measuring S - Parameters in Spice

[Paul Burridge]

Hi all,

I flicked through Google last night and saw some quite simple set-up
whereby, given an accurate enough transistor model, one might measure
S - parmaters for any device under consideration purely via
simulation. Is this feasible? Or is it really only possible to
reliably do this empirically with real components?

Thanks,

p.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:38:22 GMT, "Kevin Aylward"
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

I flicked through Google last night and saw some quite simple set-up
whereby, given an accurate enough transistor model, one might measure
S - parmaters for any device under consideration purely via
simulation. Is this feasible? Or is it really only possible to
reliably do this empirically with real components?

I dont follow what you are asking for. A bit of confusion between
"measurement" and "simulation" here.

I think you know. I've since Googled a bit more and found that
"gwhite" (can't recall his first name off hand, but he's the author of
the VHF/UHF DX Handbook) posted to one of the radio amateur groups
that he'd had more accurate results 'measuring' S-parameters from
Spice simulations than the manufacturers provided in their datasheets.
He was able to 'adjudicate' between the sheets and Spice by virtue of
having access to a decent VNA.

*All* the parameter sets (h, s, abcd etc) are mathematicly *identically*
equivalent. A far as simulation goes, it don't care a toss what set you
use.

True enough.

S - parameters came into use for R.F, because it is easier to *measure*
S parameters in the real world at high frequencies. By and large, S
parameters themselves, in my opinion, are a pain in the arse.

Indeed? I'm surprised. Measuring them might be a pain in the arse, but
once you have them, they do make it much easier to visualise any
mis-match when subsequently plotted on Mr. Smith's chart.

If you can
get a good spice model at h.f, you are better using it, especially,
because this will allow one to do transient simulation as well.

Whatever, but what I'm trying to arrive at is a circuit simulation
which will enable the modulus and phase-angle components of reflected
waves to be displayed via Spice. If you or anyone else can come up
with an accurate way of doing so, then I'd be interested to hear about
it.

p.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Chaos Master]

Robert, Robert, Robert.... did you really write this article
(<aScRc.12272$9Y6.10039@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net&gt in newsgroup
(sci.electronics.cad) at the date of (Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:39:02 GMT)?

[S Parameters in SPICE]

I have an old 2 page App Note from Wes Hayard (W7ZOI) in DOC format that
describes a setup that will work in all the various Spices. If you provide
an address (suitably camouflaged) I'll send it.

I am interested in this app note, can you send it to me?

renan_tdb AT yahoo DOT com DOT br

[]s
--
Chaos MasterŽ, posting from Brazil. REPLY TO GROUP!
MSN: wizard_of_yendor[@]hotmail[.]com http://marreka.no-ip.com
"You're guilty; the punishment is death for all who live."
-- Iron Maiden, "Out Of The Silent Planet"

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:39:02 GMT, "Robert" <robert@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have an old 2 page App Note from Wes Hayard (W7ZOI) in DOC format that
describes a setup that will work in all the various Spices. If you provide
an address (suitably camouflaged) I'll send it.

Sounds just what I'm looking for. Thanks, Robert. Address is
pb@osiris1.co.uk with no mods needed to reach me. I just don't care!

Best regards,

paul
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 06:28:15 GMT, "Kevin Aylward"
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

Why? These "waves" do not "exist", i.e they are imaginary, in a lumped
component model such as a spice one.

I know what you mean, Kev, but this is the very reason I'm posting the
question. It *is* possible to contrive a simulation to establish a
device's S -parameters in Spice, notwithstanding real-world
distributed reactances. I simply would like to know *how* it's done!
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 14:06:52 +0100, Paul Burridge
<pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:

Hi all,

I flicked through Google last night and saw some quite simple set-up
whereby, given an accurate enough transistor model, one might measure
S - parmaters for any device under consideration purely via
simulation. Is this feasible? Or is it really only possible to
reliably do this empirically with real components?

Thanks,

p.

It's in this list of app notes:

http://www.orcadpcb.com/pspice/applicationnotes.asp?bc=F

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On 12 Aug 2004 08:39:20 -0700, mehran_gupta@yahoo.com (mehran gupta)
wrote:

The article below shows a good method to measure the S-parameters
using Micro-Cap. It should work with any simulation programme.

http://www.spectrum-soft.com/news/winter2001/sparameters.shtm

mehran

Many thanks, Mehran. That's just the kind of info I'd be trawling the
'net for and been unable to find.

Regards, Paul
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.