Measuring RF output impedance

P

Paul Burridge

Guest
Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?

p.
--

The BBC: licenced at public expense to spread lies.
 
Paul,
The most obvious method would be to measure the open-circuit RF output
voltage, and then measure the output voltage with a known load. The output
impedance is a simple calculation of the ratio of the voltages.
However, depending on the vintage and quality of the generator, the
impedance is likely to change with frequency, and possibly even with output
level. For source-impedance-sensitive measurements, it's generally a good
idea to put a small amount of fixed resistive attenuation at the output
(6-10 dB) in order to "fix" the impedance.

Joe
W3JDR

"Paul Burridge" <pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mk87909cpdg7dq25dn24blfoph41mr2gpm@4ax.com...
Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?

p.
--

The BBC: licenced at public expense to spread lies.
Click to expand...
 
On a sunny day (Sat, 01 May 2004 14:19:59 +0100) it happened Paul Burridge
<pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in
<mk87909cpdg7dq25dn24blfoph41mr2gpm@4ax.com>:

Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?

Load it with 50 Ohms, and measure output voltage, remove load and measure
Click to expand...
again.
If it is half, it is 50, else do the math.
JP
 
"Paul Burridge" <pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mk87909cpdg7dq25dn24blfoph41mr2gpm@4ax.com...
Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
The generators are more of a voltage source. They will deliver their rated
output when loaded to the proper impedance. Load it with 50 ohms and see if
it gives the rated output. If not try 70 ohms, or another value. One of
the reasons for using a 6 db pad is that it helps isolate the impedance of
the generator and receiver.
 
Paul Burridge wrote:
I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before.
Click to expand...
Would it be a car-type output socket (deep recessed centre pin)? Would
it be an old Advance generator with the rounded corners? If so, it's
almost certainly 75R.

What's the simplest way of establishing its output impedance? I've had
a few ideas but no doubt someone out there will know of something
better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Click to expand...
If it has a resistive output attenuator with no DC blocking capacitor,
you can switch to maximum attenuation (minimum output) and measure Zout
with an ohm-meter.


--
73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB)

http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
 
On Sat, 01 May 2004 17:03:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 01 May 2004 14:19:59 +0100) it happened Paul Burridge
pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in
mk87909cpdg7dq25dn24blfoph41mr2gpm@4ax.com>:

Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?

Load it with 50 Ohms, and measure output voltage, remove load and measure
again.
If it is half, it is 50, else do the math.
Click to expand...
---
Without doing a conjugate match and accounting for the impedance of
the voltmeter and the load, the best he'll be able to do is _assume_
that what he measures is what he's really got.

--
John Fields
 
"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:c70l9d$2c4$1@news.epidc.co.kr...
On a sunny day (Sat, 01 May 2004 14:19:59 +0100) it happened Paul Burridge
pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in
mk87909cpdg7dq25dn24blfoph41mr2gpm@4ax.com>:

Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?

Load it with 50 Ohms, and measure output voltage, remove load and measure
again.
If it is half, it is 50, else do the math.
Click to expand...
If it is half, you've got a funny generator.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'x' and 'invalid' when replying by email)
 
On Sat, 1 May 2004 23:37:26 +0200, "Frank Bemelman"
<f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> wrote:

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:c70l9d$2c4$1@news.epidc.co.kr...
On a sunny day (Sat, 01 May 2004 14:19:59 +0100) it happened Paul Burridge
pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in
mk87909cpdg7dq25dn24blfoph41mr2gpm@4ax.com>:

Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?

Load it with 50 Ohms, and measure output voltage, remove load and measure
again.
If it is half, it is 50, else do the math.

If it is half, you've got a funny generator.
Click to expand...
---
LOL!


--
John Fields
 
On a sunny day (Sat, 1 May 2004 23:37:26 +0200) it happened "Frank Bemelman"
<f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> wrote in
<409417c4$0$25601$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>:

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:c70l9d$2c4$1@news.epidc.co.kr...
On a sunny day (Sat, 01 May 2004 14:19:59 +0100) it happened Paul Burridge
pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in
mk87909cpdg7dq25dn24blfoph41mr2gpm@4ax.com>:

Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?

Load it with 50 Ohms, and measure output voltage, remove load and measure
again.
If it is half, it is 50, else do the math.

If it is half, you've got a funny generator.
Why that?
Click to expand...
 
"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:c71d0g$emj$1@news.epidc.co.kr...
On a sunny day (Sat, 1 May 2004 23:37:26 +0200) it happened "Frank
Bemelman"
f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> wrote in
409417c4$0$25601$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>:

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:c70l9d$2c4$1@news.epidc.co.kr...
On a sunny day (Sat, 01 May 2004 14:19:59 +0100) it happened Paul
Burridge
pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in
mk87909cpdg7dq25dn24blfoph41mr2gpm@4ax.com>:

Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?

Load it with 50 Ohms, and measure output voltage, remove load and
measure
again.
If it is half, it is 50, else do the math.

If it is half, you've got a funny generator.

Why that?
Click to expand...
I expect amplitudes to double or at least rise, after
removing a load. Just nitpicking ;)


--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'x' and 'invalid' when replying by email)
 
On a sunny day (Sun, 2 May 2004 02:06:09 +0200) it happened "Frank Bemelman"
<f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> wrote in
<40943a9f$0$25628$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>:

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:c71d0g$emj$1@news.epidc.co.kr...
On a sunny day (Sat, 1 May 2004 23:37:26 +0200) it happened "Frank
Bemelman"
f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> wrote in
409417c4$0$25601$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>:

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:c70l9d$2c4$1@news.epidc.co.kr...
On a sunny day (Sat, 01 May 2004 14:19:59 +0100) it happened Paul
Burridge
pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in
mk87909cpdg7dq25dn24blfoph41mr2gpm@4ax.com>:

Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?

Load it with 50 Ohms, and measure output voltage, remove load and
measure
again.
If it is half, it is 50, else do the math.

If it is half, you've got a funny generator.

Why that?

I expect amplitudes to double or at least rise, after
removing a load. Just nitpicking ;)
Yes - sentence construction could have been more clear,
Click to expand...
it should have been inferred as 'If it is half *before you removed it*
now that would be wrong too, 'If it WAS half' OK.
No, actually it was correct, cause 'it' referred to the first measurement.
Did you collect many nits while picking ;-)?
 
On Sat, 01 May 2004 14:19:59 +0100, Paul Burridge
<pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:

Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?

p.
--

The BBC: licenced at public expense to spread lies.
Click to expand...
Hello Paul,
what is the brand name and model number of your RF signal generator.
Can you descibe the socket to us.
Regards,
John Crighton
Sydney
 
"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:c71i4g$hf2$1@news.epidc.co.kr...
On a sunny day (Sun, 2 May 2004 02:06:09 +0200) it happened "Frank
Bemelman"
f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> wrote in
40943a9f$0$25628$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>:

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:c71d0g$emj$1@news.epidc.co.kr...
On a sunny day (Sat, 1 May 2004 23:37:26 +0200) it happened "Frank
Bemelman"
f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> wrote in
409417c4$0$25601$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>:

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:c70l9d$2c4$1@news.epidc.co.kr...
On a sunny day (Sat, 01 May 2004 14:19:59 +0100) it happened Paul
Burridge
pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in
mk87909cpdg7dq25dn24blfoph41mr2gpm@4ax.com>:

Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from
a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no
doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always
seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?

Load it with 50 Ohms, and measure output voltage, remove load and
measure
again.
If it is half, it is 50, else do the math.

If it is half, you've got a funny generator.

Why that?

I expect amplitudes to double or at least rise, after
removing a load. Just nitpicking ;)
Yes - sentence construction could have been more clear,
it should have been inferred as 'If it is half *before you removed it*
now that would be wrong too, 'If it WAS half' OK.
No, actually it was correct, cause 'it' referred to the first measurement.
Did you collect many nits while picking ;-)?
Click to expand...
Well, I also wondered what it means to Paul, once he has
figured out that output impedance. Will it change his life
dramatically... ;)

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'x' and 'invalid' when replying by email)
 
"Frank Bemelman" <f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> a écrit dans le message
news: 4094c26b$0$78635$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
Well, I also wondered what it means to Paul, once he has
figured out that output impedance. Will it change his life
dramatically... ;)
Click to expand...
Sure. He now have a nice opportunity to ask the same question once more ;-)

Thanks,
Fred.


BTW, got some news of our goldmine order ?
Not that I'm longing to have it, but they do seem to be waaaay slooooow....
 
"Fred Bartoli"
<fred._canxxxel_this_bartoli@RemoveThatAlso_free.fr_AndThisToo> schreef in
bericht news:4094c744$0$27674$636a15ce@news.free.fr...
"Frank Bemelman" <f.bemelmanx@planet.invalid.nl> a écrit dans le message
news: 4094c26b$0$78635$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

Well, I also wondered what it means to Paul, once he has
figured out that output impedance. Will it change his life
dramatically... ;)


Sure. He now have a nice opportunity to ask the same question once more
;-)

Thanks,
Fred.


BTW, got some news of our goldmine order ?
Not that I'm longing to have it, but they do seem to be waaaay
slooooow....
Click to expand...

The last news was it got shipped on 21 april. I expect it 'real soon now'.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'x' and 'invalid' when replying by email)
 
On Sun, 02 May 2004 02:43:18 GMT, john_c@tpg.com.au (John Crighton)
wrote:


Hello Paul,
what is the brand name and model number of your RF signal generator.
Can you descibe the socket to us.
Click to expand...
Thanks John (and others).

The model number ain't gonna mean a lot to anyone as this is a very
old piece of kit (1950s) that I keep mainly out of a sense of
reverence for the past. :) It's an old ex-RAF AVO. I have posted a
picture of the socket to a.b.s.e under this same thread title...
BTW, there's a 5p coin shown for scale, but since that won't mean much
to anyone outside Britain, the outer of the socket is approx. 1" in
diameter (which won't mean much to anyone in europe but it serves them
right for adopting the metric system.:))

--

The BBC: licenced at public expense to spread lies.
 
On Sat, 1 May 2004 15:30:18 -0400, "Ralph Mowery" <rmowery@ctc.net>
wrote:

The generators are more of a voltage source. They will deliver their rated
output when loaded to the proper impedance. Load it with 50 ohms and see if
it gives the rated output. If not try 70 ohms, or another value. One of
the reasons for using a 6 db pad is that it helps isolate the impedance of
the generator and receiver.
Click to expand...
My main sig gen states "output EMF using 6dB pad" next to the socket.
WTF is a "6dB pad"?
--

The BBC: licenced at public expense to spread lies.
 
On Sat, 01 May 2004 17:03:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 01 May 2004 14:19:59 +0100) it happened Paul Burridge
pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in
mk87909cpdg7dq25dn24blfoph41mr2gpm@4ax.com>:

Hi,

I have a spare RF signal generator that has an unmarked output from a
type of socket I've never seen before. What's the simplest way of
establishing its output impedance? I've had a few ideas but no doubt
someone out there will know of something better, since I always seem
to end up making unnecessary work for myself.
Any suggestions?

Load it with 50 Ohms, and measure output voltage, remove load and measure
again.
If it is half, it is 50, else do the math.
Click to expand...
Or double, presumably. :)
Well there you go; I knew there must be a more elegant solution to the
one I dreamed up which basically involved taking a spread of 10 carbon
resistors of from 10 - 1000 ohms and measuring the applied voltage
across each, then arriving at power transferred in each by V^2/R;
drawing a graph of the results and finding the point of maximum power
delivered.
--

The BBC: licenced at public expense to spread lies.
 
On Sun, 02 May 2004 14:09:44 +0100, Paul Burridge
<pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:

On Sat, 1 May 2004 15:30:18 -0400, "Ralph Mowery" <rmowery@ctc.net
wrote:

The generators are more of a voltage source. They will deliver their rated
output when loaded to the proper impedance. Load it with 50 ohms and see if
it gives the rated output. If not try 70 ohms, or another value. One of
the reasons for using a 6 db pad is that it helps isolate the impedance of
the generator and receiver.

My main sig gen states "output EMF using 6dB pad" next to the socket.
WTF is a "6dB pad"?
Click to expand...
---
A 6dB attenuator.

--
John Fields
 
My main sig gen states "output EMF using 6dB pad" next to the socket.
WTF is a "6dB pad"?
--
Click to expand...
A pad is usually 3 resistors in a small container. They can be a T or a Pi
type. This is the way the resistors are configured in the pad. You may
also see them referred to as an attenuator. The number 6 db is how much the
pad reduces the signal in power. You can get them from about .5 db to 20
db. They have to be used for the impedance they are rated at. They are for
reducing the signal level and also to help isolate small differences in
impedance.
For the calibration to be accurate on your generator it sounds like the
scale is calibrated so you need the 6 db pad after it. A 5 db pad will
reduce the power by a factor of 4 or a voltage by a factor of 2.
 
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