Measuring ground moisture level via conductivity

[Chris Cooper]

A few weeks back, I posted a question about measuring the level of moisture
in the ground (so I could control my sprinkler system accordingly). "The
Captain" sent me a schematic that did this using a Whetstone Bridge to
measure the conductivity.

A friend then suggested that I do a simpler thing and just measure the
resistance, and see what kind of values I got, and how it changed over time.
This seemed reasonable, so I bought a couple of 12" galvanized spikes at
Home Depot, hammered them into my wife's rose garden about 3' apart, and
grabbed the trusty VMM.

Immediately after hammering the spikes into the soil, the resistance
measurement was at about 1k ... and rising slowly but steadily. And then I
reversed the probes and measured about 500 ohms, holding steady. So I
waited a day. Measuring one direction I got 1.5Mohms, the other direction
500kohm. Today it was 2.2Mohms one way and 1.5Mohms the other way.

What in the sam hill blazes is going on here? Some sort of weird chemical
reaction that makes the resistance different in one direction than the
other? Does the Whetstone bridge circuit somehow get around this?

Thanks all!
Chris
chris at sc3 dot net

 

[Fleetie]

Immediately after hammering the spikes into the soil, the resistance
measurement was at about 1k ... and rising slowly but steadily. And then I
reversed the probes and measured about 500 ohms, holding steady. So I
waited a day. Measuring one direction I got 1.5Mohms, the other direction
500kohm. Today it was 2.2Mohms one way and 1.5Mohms the other way.

What in the sam hill blazes is going on here? Some sort of weird chemical
reaction that makes the resistance different in one direction than the
other? Does the Whetstone bridge circuit somehow get around this?

Well firstly, it's likely that the electrodes will become corroded/oxidised
over time, so the resistance you measure can be expected to change dramatically
as a function of time since installation.

Secondly, if you're measuring the resistance with D.C., which you
are, then you're going to get an electrolysis effect, whereby each
electrode will behave differently; one will attract positive ions, and
one negative ions. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that if
you swap thr DMM leads over, the measured resistance would be
different.

You need to measure using low-voltage A.C. if this bothers you, and to
use electrodes of an inert metal, or at least plated in such, like gold,
platinum, rhodium (?), etc.. Well, that's my guess, anyway. No doubt others
will have more knowledgable insights.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk

 

[w_tom]

Other currents may exist in earth. Currents that are
leaving earth, passing through your meter, and returning to
earth - because that is, electrically, a shorter path.

Chris Cooper wrote:

A few weeks back, I posted a question about measuring the level of
moisture in the ground (so I could control my sprinkler system
accordingly). "The Captain" sent me a schematic that did this using
a Whetstone Bridge to measure the conductivity.

A friend then suggested that I do a simpler thing and just measure
the resistance, and see what kind of values I got, and how it
changed over time. This seemed reasonable, so I bought a couple of
12" galvanized spikes at Home Depot, hammered them into my wife's
rose garden about 3' apart, and grabbed the trusty VMM.

Immediately after hammering the spikes into the soil, the resistance
measurement was at about 1k ... and rising slowly but steadily. And
then I reversed the probes and measured about 500 ohms, holding
steady. So I waited a day. Measuring one direction I got 1.5Mohms,
the other direction 500kohm. Today it was 2.2Mohms one way and
1.5Mohms the other way.

What in the sam hill blazes is going on here? Some sort of weird
chemical reaction that makes the resistance different in one
direction than the other? Does the Whetstone bridge circuit
somehow get around this?

 

[Chris Cooper]

Yeah, the circuit I was sent uses AC for that very reason. My thought was
that if I only measure the soil resistance once a day, and only for a few
seconds, the oxidizing/electrolysis effect would be negligible. Certainly
if I left the meter on 24 hours a day with a small DC voltage going, I'd
have all kinds of interesting things happen. I could even alternate
polarity from day to day.

So I guess there are two forces at work here. #1 is that there is some sort
of chemical reaction occurring between my probes and the soil. This is why,
on the first day, I measured resistances around 1k, and am now measuring
resistances around 1M. Force #2 is the electrolysis effect, which is why my
garden has no hair. No wait, wrong effect. The DC of my ohmmeter caused
some movement of the ions in the soil, creating a battery, and that is
causing the perceived difference in resistance going in the two directions.

Does that sound right?

That is so cool! I just went out & measured, and it's got a nice steady 220
mv DC! (and -220 mv DC measured with probes reversed, just for
double-checking). It turned my wife's rose garden into a battery! I wonder
what this will do to the roses ...

I'm going to grab a small resistor and try to drain the rose garden battery.

My gut feeling is that measuring the resistance with AC (which is what the
Whetstone bridge circuit does) "averages out" the effect of the DC, which is
another reason to use AC? Even turning the meter on for just a short time
each day won't help, if I measure the resistance using DC I will get this
battery effect which will throw off my measurements.

Thanks!
Chris


"Fleetie" <fleetie@fleetie.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:l5%fb.6373$RU4.61983@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...

Immediately after hammering the spikes into the soil, the resistance
measurement was at about 1k ... and rising slowly but steadily. And
then I
reversed the probes and measured about 500 ohms, holding steady. So I
waited a day. Measuring one direction I got 1.5Mohms, the other
direction
500kohm. Today it was 2.2Mohms one way and 1.5Mohms the other way.

What in the sam hill blazes is going on here? Some sort of weird
chemical
reaction that makes the resistance different in one direction than the
other? Does the Whetstone bridge circuit somehow get around this?

Well firstly, it's likely that the electrodes will become
corroded/oxidised
over time, so the resistance you measure can be expected to change
dramatically
as a function of time since installation.

Secondly, if you're measuring the resistance with D.C., which you
are, then you're going to get an electrolysis effect, whereby each
electrode will behave differently; one will attract positive ions, and
one negative ions. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that if
you swap thr DMM leads over, the measured resistance would be
different.

You need to measure using low-voltage A.C. if this bothers you, and to
use electrodes of an inert metal, or at least plated in such, like gold,
platinum, rhodium (?), etc.. Well, that's my guess, anyway. No doubt
others
will have more knowledgable insights.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967
110890
Manchester, U.K.
http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk

 

[Chris Cooper]

An interesting idea ... what would cause these "other currents"?

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3F808F0D.2E013474@hotmail.com...

Other currents may exist in earth. Currents that are
leaving earth, passing through your meter, and returning to
earth - because that is, electrically, a shorter path.

Chris Cooper wrote:
A few weeks back, I posted a question about measuring the level of
moisture in the ground (so I could control my sprinkler system
accordingly). "The Captain" sent me a schematic that did this using
a Whetstone Bridge to measure the conductivity.

A friend then suggested that I do a simpler thing and just measure
the resistance, and see what kind of values I got, and how it
changed over time. This seemed reasonable, so I bought a couple of
12" galvanized spikes at Home Depot, hammered them into my wife's
rose garden about 3' apart, and grabbed the trusty VMM.

Immediately after hammering the spikes into the soil, the resistance
measurement was at about 1k ... and rising slowly but steadily. And
then I reversed the probes and measured about 500 ohms, holding
steady. So I waited a day. Measuring one direction I got 1.5Mohms,
the other direction 500kohm. Today it was 2.2Mohms one way and
1.5Mohms the other way.

What in the sam hill blazes is going on here? Some sort of weird
chemical reaction that makes the resistance different in one
direction than the other? Does the Whetstone bridge circuit
somehow get around this?

 

[Chris Cooper]

Any idea on a probe that will become corroded/oxidized more slowly? That's
why I picked galvanized spikes, I thought they would be able to handle the
corrosion better ... I'm not sure that gold-plated platinum spikes are in
the budget (grin) ...

"Fleetie" <fleetie@fleetie.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:l5%fb.6373$RU4.61983@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...

Immediately after hammering the spikes into the soil, the resistance
measurement was at about 1k ... and rising slowly but steadily. And
then I
reversed the probes and measured about 500 ohms, holding steady. So I
waited a day. Measuring one direction I got 1.5Mohms, the other
direction
500kohm. Today it was 2.2Mohms one way and 1.5Mohms the other way.

What in the sam hill blazes is going on here? Some sort of weird
chemical
reaction that makes the resistance different in one direction than the
other? Does the Whetstone bridge circuit somehow get around this?

Well firstly, it's likely that the electrodes will become
corroded/oxidised
over time, so the resistance you measure can be expected to change
dramatically
as a function of time since installation.

Secondly, if you're measuring the resistance with D.C., which you
are, then you're going to get an electrolysis effect, whereby each
electrode will behave differently; one will attract positive ions, and
one negative ions. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that if
you swap thr DMM leads over, the measured resistance would be
different.

You need to measure using low-voltage A.C. if this bothers you, and to
use electrodes of an inert metal, or at least plated in such, like gold,
platinum, rhodium (?), etc.. Well, that's my guess, anyway. No doubt
others
will have more knowledgable insights.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967
110890
Manchester, U.K.
http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk

 

[Charles Jean]

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 17:37:17 -0400, w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote:

Other currents may exist in earth. Currents that are
leaving earth, passing through your meter, and returning to
earth - because that is, electrically, a shorter path.

Chris Cooper wrote:
A few weeks back, I posted a question about measuring the level of
moisture in the ground (so I could control my sprinkler system
accordingly). "The Captain" sent me a schematic that did this using
a Whetstone Bridge to measure the conductivity.

A friend then suggested that I do a simpler thing and just measure
the resistance, and see what kind of values I got, and how it
changed over time. This seemed reasonable, so I bought a couple of
12" galvanized spikes at Home Depot, hammered them into my wife's
rose garden about 3' apart, and grabbed the trusty VMM.

Immediately after hammering the spikes into the soil, the resistance
measurement was at about 1k ... and rising slowly but steadily. And
then I reversed the probes and measured about 500 ohms, holding
steady. So I waited a day. Measuring one direction I got 1.5Mohms,
the other direction 500kohm. Today it was 2.2Mohms one way and
1.5Mohms the other way.

What in the sam hill blazes is going on here? Some sort of weird
chemical reaction that makes the resistance different in one
direction than the other? Does the Whetstone bridge circuit
somehow get around this?

You have polarized electrodes, and electrolysis is going on. You need
to use an AC Wheatsone bridge with totally inert electrodes.
You might try carbon electrodes, from an old zinc-carbon battery. No
metal showing, cover all conductive connections with epoxy. Initial
connection to carbon via conductive epoxy. Cover this also with
non-conductive epoxy. Bury them, don't smash them in. Use a sine
wave at about 1000 Hz and earphones for the bridge null measurement.
There is also a capacitive component to think about, since you're
using AC. It's effect will be to give you a "fuzzy" null zone, unless
you can sharpen it up with a compensating capacitor in the reference
side of the bridge, parallel to the reference resistor.
Cheers!
Charlie

 

[Bushy]

Forget the longwinded approach and simply use two different metal probes and
a simple volt meter.

The cheap shop moisture probe I have uses this circuit and has two different
metals separated by an insulator like coax cable and a half inch long
pointed copper tip. The shaft is silver coloured but I'm not sure what metal
it is.

There are different voltages produced between different metals in a salt
solution and the moisture level in the soil will cause the voltage produced
to change.

Drawback is the probe will corrode, but if you only want to test it once per
day it is easy. Stick the 1/4 inch diameter 12 inch long probe into the soil
and look at the attached meter.

It cost me less than $5.00 Australian and is now about five years old. It
works happily for my girlfriend's pot plants but I don't know how accurate
it is. It does show a difference when it's wet to when it's dry but I think
different soils would have different salt levels which would cause
calibration problems.

Hope this helps,
Peter

 

[Chris Cooper]

That certainly is easier ... the problem is, when I said I only want to test
it once a day, what I want to do is to hook up my PC so _it_ tests it once a
day - so it's not that I want to run outside once a day and stick the probes
into the soil, the probes gotta stay there...

"Bushy" <please@reply.to.group> wrote in message
news:bls2aj$cfa$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...

Forget the longwinded approach and simply use two different metal probes
and
a simple volt meter.

The cheap shop moisture probe I have uses this circuit and has two
different
metals separated by an insulator like coax cable and a half inch long
pointed copper tip. The shaft is silver coloured but I'm not sure what
metal
it is.

There are different voltages produced between different metals in a salt
solution and the moisture level in the soil will cause the voltage
produced
to change.

Drawback is the probe will corrode, but if you only want to test it once
per
day it is easy. Stick the 1/4 inch diameter 12 inch long probe into the
soil
and look at the attached meter.

It cost me less than $5.00 Australian and is now about five years old. It
works happily for my girlfriend's pot plants but I don't know how accurate
it is. It does show a difference when it's wet to when it's dry but I
think
different soils would have different salt levels which would cause
calibration problems.

Hope this helps,
Peter

 

[w_tom]

Look on every telephone pole on every transformer. Just one
place to start. Ground testers not only use AC, but use
frequencies that are not harmonics of existing electrical
equipment. For example, expensive conductivity testers
include a filter to measure a 58 Hz - so that 60 Hz AC
electric ground currents do not interfere.

Chris Cooper wrote:
> An interesting idea ... what would cause these "other currents"?

 

[Garrett Mace]

"Chris Cooper" <chrisnews@sc3.net> wrote in message
news:3f81ab30$0$196$75868355@news.frii.net...

That certainly is easier ... the problem is, when I said I only want to
test
it once a day, what I want to do is to hook up my PC so _it_ tests it once
a
day - so it's not that I want to run outside once a day and stick the
probes
into the soil, the probes gotta stay there...

What are you complaining about? It's the perfect excuse to justify building
a robot to drive out there every day, poke the probe into the ground, and
read the dial with its camera. Now you've turned your wife's rose garden
into Mars!

 

[Bushy]

Or use thicker probes to allow for the corrosion that will occur. If you use
12" thick probes you will only have to change them every couple of years.

Still lots cheaper than the fancy ones if you get them from the local scrap
dealer for $X.XX per pound.

Although I like the robot idea, (WIFE = Washing, Ironing, F_cking, Etc!) it
doesn't say much for your gardening enjoyment if you don't go out to the
garden! Might as well replace them with plastic flowers! (Same applies to
wife!) You could then tell the moisture content of the soil by seeing if
they have fallen over 'cause the ground is mud after not turning off the
sprinkler.

If you want to see the moisture profile of the soil you really need a spade!

Peter

 

[Thurston Phoremost]

"Chris Cooper" <chrisnews@sc3.net> wrote in message news:<3f809dd6$0$201$75868355@news.frii.net>...

Any idea on a probe that will become corroded/oxidized more slowly? That's
why I picked galvanized spikes, I thought they would be able to handle the
corrosion better ... I'm not sure that gold-plated platinum spikes are in
the budget (grin) ...

I dunno if my first post got thru (#@%^& Google) So I'll try agen.. I
reckon zinc (galv) would be the worst choice, since zinc is in
batteries. Stainless Steel would be better, I'd say try using some
stainless steel cutlery, but a S/S pot scourer or SS wool would be
better because of its larger surface area.


T.

 

[w_tom]

Any 'battery effect' by one electrode is simply compensated
for by the 'battery effect' of the other electrode - if
electrodes are same material.

As stated earlier, currents are flowing through earth.
Those earth borne currents make conductivity appear different
in reverse directions. Testing requires AC current sourced by
the tester, typically at frequencies that are not harmonics of
60 Hz (or 50 Hz in other locales), in a circuit that would
reject those earth borne currents. Problem is not due to
oxidation voltages between electrode and earth since those
voltages would cancel out the voltage of the other electrode.

Thurston Phoremost wrote:

I dunno if my first post got thru (#@%^& Google) So I'll try agen.. I
reckon zinc (galv) would be the worst choice, since zinc is in
batteries. Stainless Steel would be better, I'd say try using some
stainless steel cutlery, but a S/S pot scourer or SS wool would be
better because of its larger surface area.

T.

 

[Thurston Phoremost]

w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3F84BE11.79ED7151@hotmail.com>...

Any 'battery effect' by one electrode is simply compensated
for by the 'battery effect' of the other electrode - if
electrodes are same material.

Actually, even without battery effect, corrosion buildup causing a
change in the resistance of the probes could be a factor to consider.
I reckon stainless steel would be less affected by this than say
copper or galv.

A quick look around Google suggests to me that the lions share of
commercially-available soil moisture probes are in fact made of
stainless steel.

As stated earlier, currents are flowing through earth.
Those earth borne currents make conductivity appear different
in reverse directions. Testing requires AC current sourced by
the tester, typically at frequencies that are not harmonics of
60 Hz (or 50 Hz in other locales), in a circuit that would
reject those earth borne currents. Problem is not due to
oxidation voltages between electrode and earth since those
voltages would cancel out the voltage of the other electrode.

Thurston Phoremost wrote:
I dunno if my first post got thru (#@%^& Google) So I'll try agen.. I
reckon zinc (galv) would be the worst choice, since zinc is in
batteries. Stainless Steel would be better, I'd say try using some
stainless steel cutlery, but a S/S pot scourer or SS wool would be
better because of its larger surface area.

T.