MC4024

J

Jim Thompson

Guest
MC4024_MC4324.pdf on the S.E.D/Schematics Page of my website now
contains the device-level schematic.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:25:37 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

MC4024_MC4324.pdf on the S.E.D/Schematics Page of my website now
contains the device-level schematic.

...Jim Thompson
Click to expand...
Well? Is someone going to analyse the schematic and tell me how it
works? Accurate Algebraic solutions only, please! No hand waving :)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
Hi Jim,

when I was a boy of 12 or so, I spent several years trying to understand the
MC4044 datasheet. Alas I knew no engineers, but instead tried schoolteachers
etc. No-one could tell me how to pick Wn or delta (I was attempting to
design a floppy disk controller and needed a PLL. Knowing what PLL meant
would have helped :)

Years later I learned it is quite possible to have a BE, ME or even PhD and
STILL not know how to choose Wn and delta. And of course that you cant be a
"real" engineer until you have mastered 2nd order systems.

I love old datasheets - they used to have information on them. I hate
microcontroller datasheets - many manufacturers give little or no electrical
specs.

Cheers
Terry
 
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:hj2qb09ef1ll2teu77ik4hrkpgpm92hlej@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:25:37 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

MC4024_MC4324.pdf on the S.E.D/Schematics Page of my website now
contains the device-level schematic.

...Jim Thompson

Well? Is someone going to analyse the schematic and tell me how it
works? Accurate Algebraic solutions only, please! No hand waving :)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Jim,
Click to expand...
I went through that exercise years ago, and came up with a modification that
worked with random data. But, as I recall, there are two flip-flops. One
gets toggled by a clock transition, and cleared by a reference transition.
The other gets toggled by a reference transition, and cleared by a clock
transition. So, one of the FFs tells you how much the oscillator is leading
the reference, the other FF tells you how much the oscillator is lagging the
reference. These control the U/D charge pumps.

How's my memory?

Tam
 
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:10:34 -0400, "Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net>
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:hj2qb09ef1ll2teu77ik4hrkpgpm92hlej@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:25:37 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

MC4024_MC4324.pdf on the S.E.D/Schematics Page of my website now
contains the device-level schematic.

...Jim Thompson

Well? Is someone going to analyse the schematic and tell me how it
works? Accurate Algebraic solutions only, please! No hand waving :)

...Jim Thompson
Jim,
I went through that exercise years ago, and came up with a modification that
worked with random data. But, as I recall, there are two flip-flops. One
gets toggled by a clock transition, and cleared by a reference transition.
The other gets toggled by a reference transition, and cleared by a clock
transition. So, one of the FFs tells you how much the oscillator is leading
the reference, the other FF tells you how much the oscillator is lagging the
reference. These control the U/D charge pumps.

How's my memory?

Tam
Click to expand...
Lousy ;-) You're reciting Phase/Frequency Detector jargon... the
MC4024 is a VCM (Voltage-Controlled-Multivibrator), with better than a
3:1 tuning range.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:lbprb0lq1r950kla99u48bvcvak847sdnu@4ax.com...
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:10:34 -0400, "Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:hj2qb09ef1ll2teu77ik4hrkpgpm92hlej@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:25:37 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

MC4024_MC4324.pdf on the S.E.D/Schematics Page of my website now
contains the device-level schematic.

...Jim Thompson

Well? Is someone going to analyse the schematic and tell me how it
works? Accurate Algebraic solutions only, please! No hand waving :)

...Jim Thompson
Jim,
I went through that exercise years ago, and came up with a modification
that
worked with random data. But, as I recall, there are two flip-flops. One
gets toggled by a clock transition, and cleared by a reference
transition.
The other gets toggled by a reference transition, and cleared by a clock
transition. So, one of the FFs tells you how much the oscillator is
leading
the reference, the other FF tells you how much the oscillator is lagging
the
reference. These control the U/D charge pumps.

How's my memory?

Tam


Lousy ;-) You're reciting Phase/Frequency Detector jargon... the
MC4024 is a VCM (Voltage-Controlled-Multivibrator), with better than a
3:1 tuning range.

Isn't he thinking of the 4044?
Click to expand...

Graham Holloway
 
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:lbprb0lq1r950kla99u48bvcvak847sdnu@4ax.com...
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:10:34 -0400, "Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:hj2qb09ef1ll2teu77ik4hrkpgpm92hlej@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:25:37 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

MC4024_MC4324.pdf on the S.E.D/Schematics Page of my website now
contains the device-level schematic.

...Jim Thompson

Well? Is someone going to analyse the schematic and tell me how it
works? Accurate Algebraic solutions only, please! No hand waving :)

...Jim Thompson
Jim,
I went through that exercise years ago, and came up with a modification
that
worked with random data. But, as I recall, there are two flip-flops. One
gets toggled by a clock transition, and cleared by a reference
transition.
The other gets toggled by a reference transition, and cleared by a clock
transition. So, one of the FFs tells you how much the oscillator is
leading
the reference, the other FF tells you how much the oscillator is lagging
the
reference. These control the U/D charge pumps.

How's my memory?

Tam


Lousy ;-) You're reciting Phase/Frequency Detector jargon... the
MC4024 is a VCM (Voltage-Controlled-Multivibrator), with better than a
3:1 tuning range.
Click to expand...
So you win some, lose some. I actually went to your web site, but must have
clicked on the wrong thing. Came up with a phase detector. Never used a
4024, but used the ECL one that works with an LC.

Tam
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Click to expand...
 
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:25:38 +0100, "Graham Holloway"
<eng@wps-electronics.demon.co.uk> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:lbprb0lq1r950kla99u48bvcvak847sdnu@4ax.com...
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:10:34 -0400, "Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:hj2qb09ef1ll2teu77ik4hrkpgpm92hlej@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:25:37 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

MC4024_MC4324.pdf on the S.E.D/Schematics Page of my website now
contains the device-level schematic.

...Jim Thompson

Well? Is someone going to analyse the schematic and tell me how it
works? Accurate Algebraic solutions only, please! No hand waving :)

...Jim Thompson
Jim,
I went through that exercise years ago, and came up with a modification
that
worked with random data. But, as I recall, there are two flip-flops. One
gets toggled by a clock transition, and cleared by a reference
transition.
The other gets toggled by a reference transition, and cleared by a clock
transition. So, one of the FFs tells you how much the oscillator is
leading
the reference, the other FF tells you how much the oscillator is lagging
the
reference. These control the U/D charge pumps.

How's my memory?

Tam


Lousy ;-) You're reciting Phase/Frequency Detector jargon... the
MC4024 is a VCM (Voltage-Controlled-Multivibrator), with better than a
3:1 tuning range.

Isn't he thinking of the 4044?

Graham Holloway
Click to expand...
Probably, except it can't handle "random" data, i.e. with missing
transitions... it'll run off into la la land. But the "phase jerk"
methods that I have posted will.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 11:40:24 -0400, "Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net>
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:lbprb0lq1r950kla99u48bvcvak847sdnu@4ax.com...
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:10:34 -0400, "Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:hj2qb09ef1ll2teu77ik4hrkpgpm92hlej@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:25:37 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

MC4024_MC4324.pdf on the S.E.D/Schematics Page of my website now
contains the device-level schematic.

...Jim Thompson

Well? Is someone going to analyse the schematic and tell me how it
works? Accurate Algebraic solutions only, please! No hand waving :)

...Jim Thompson
Jim,
I went through that exercise years ago, and came up with a modification
that
worked with random data. But, as I recall, there are two flip-flops. One
gets toggled by a clock transition, and cleared by a reference
transition.
The other gets toggled by a reference transition, and cleared by a clock
transition. So, one of the FFs tells you how much the oscillator is
leading
the reference, the other FF tells you how much the oscillator is lagging
the
reference. These control the U/D charge pumps.

How's my memory?

Tam


Lousy ;-) You're reciting Phase/Frequency Detector jargon... the
MC4024 is a VCM (Voltage-Controlled-Multivibrator), with better than a
3:1 tuning range.

So you win some, lose some. I actually went to your web site, but must have
clicked on the wrong thing. Came up with a phase detector. Never used a
4024, but used the ECL one that works with an LC.

Tam
Click to expand...
"the ECL one that works with an LC", that would be another of my
designs, the MC1648 (or, IIRC, now revitalized on a faster process as
the MC12048).

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
Terry Given wrote:

-- snip --
I love old datasheets - they used to have information on them. I hate
microcontroller datasheets - many manufacturers give little or no electrical
specs.

Cheers
Terry
Click to expand...
I learned how to do digital circuit design as a boy, just from reading
datasheets. I was quite competent until I went to engineering school :>.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
 
Jim Thompson wrote...
"the ECL one that works with an LC", that would be another of
my designs, the MC1648 (or, IIRC, now revitalized on a faster
process as the MC12048).
Click to expand...
Are you thinking of the MC12148? Sadly discontinued long ago.

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
 
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:qjtrb091o7pj5dgpjn3jvqn90bccrb5gvq@4ax.com...
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:25:38 +0100, "Graham Holloway"
eng@wps-electronics.demon.co.uk> wrote:



"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:lbprb0lq1r950kla99u48bvcvak847sdnu@4ax.com...
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:10:34 -0400, "Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:hj2qb09ef1ll2teu77ik4hrkpgpm92hlej@4ax.com...
On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:25:37 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

MC4024_MC4324.pdf on the S.E.D/Schematics Page of my website now
contains the device-level schematic.

...Jim Thompson

Well? Is someone going to analyse the schematic and tell me how it
works? Accurate Algebraic solutions only, please! No hand waving
:)

...Jim Thompson
Jim,
I went through that exercise years ago, and came up with a
modification
that
worked with random data. But, as I recall, there are two flip-flops.
One
gets toggled by a clock transition, and cleared by a reference
transition.
The other gets toggled by a reference transition, and cleared by a
clock
transition. So, one of the FFs tells you how much the oscillator is
leading
the reference, the other FF tells you how much the oscillator is
lagging
the
reference. These control the U/D charge pumps.

How's my memory?

Tam


Lousy ;-) You're reciting Phase/Frequency Detector jargon... the
MC4024 is a VCM (Voltage-Controlled-Multivibrator), with better than a
3:1 tuning range.

Isn't he thinking of the 4044?

Graham Holloway


Probably, except it can't handle "random" data, i.e. with missing
transitions... it'll run off into la la land. But the "phase jerk"
methods that I have posted will.

...Jim Thompson
Click to expand...
That was the change. It did handle random data. Missing data transitions
caused equal positive and negative error pulses.

Tam
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Click to expand...
 
On 2 Jun 2004 12:07:59 -0700, Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote...

"the ECL one that works with an LC", that would be another of
my designs, the MC1648 (or, IIRC, now revitalized on a faster
process as the MC12048).

Are you thinking of the MC12148? Sadly discontinued long ago.

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
Click to expand...
See Lansdale....

http://www.lansdale.com/prdmot5.htm

and, for my analog/linear designs....

http://www.lansdale.com/prdmot8.htm

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]

"the ECL one that works with an LC", that would be another of my
designs, the MC1648 (or, IIRC, now revitalized on a faster process as
the MC12048).

...Jim Thompson
Click to expand...
Faster process?? I went Googling for PLLs, previously under the
impression that a PLL was really cooking if it was running at 100 MHz.
Man, was I in for a surprise! Of course, some of what I found was
research papers on experimental devices, but...
http://www.sss-mag.com/pdf/pll.pdf
and many other research papers.
 
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 08:23:09 -0700, "Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the
Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]

"the ECL one that works with an LC", that would be another of my
designs, the MC1648 (or, IIRC, now revitalized on a faster process as
the MC12048).

...Jim Thompson

Faster process?? I went Googling for PLLs, previously under the
impression that a PLL was really cooking if it was running at 100 MHz.
Man, was I in for a surprise! Of course, some of what I found was
research papers on experimental devices, but...
http://www.sss-mag.com/pdf/pll.pdf
and many other research papers.
Click to expand...
The MC1648 would do about 300MHz (designed around 1968). The MC12148
probably will do close to 1GHz.

I've done custom chips as high as 3.8GHz.

I'm working a chip design right now (actually writing up the final
design review as we speak) that runs at 2112MHz.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" wrote...
Jim Thompson wrote:

"the ECL one that works with an LC", that would be another of my
designs, the MC1648 (or, IIRC, now revitalized on a faster process
as the MC12048).

Faster process?? I went Googling for PLLs, previously under the
impression that a PLL was really cooking if it was running at 100 MHz.
Man, was I in for a surprise! Of course, some of what I found was
research papers on experimental devices, but...
http://www.sss-mag.com/pdf/pll.pdf and many other research papers.
Click to expand...
And that one, "Introduction to Single Chip Microwave PLLs,"
is over 10 years old.

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Back
Top