Looking for LED/EL wire controller help

[Master Raven]

Hey all I'm toying with an idea and I need to pick some brains who I
hope know wayyy more than I do at this point. What I want to do is
control several high out put LED's and several EL-Wires all from the
same circuit running off 9V it's been suggested that I look at the PIC
16F84 for this and that's all well and good but I need some suggestions
as to the additional parts and layout. The PCB I can do but I'll be
honest I'm no circuit designer and this is a little toy type thingy for
one of my kids so simple and sturdy would be good as well.

And info will be welcome

TIA

R Morton

 

[Master Raven]

Master Raven wrote:

Hey all I'm toying with an idea and I need to pick some brains who I
hope know wayyy more than I do at this point. What I want to do is
control several high out put LED's and several EL-Wires all from the
same circuit running off 9V it's been suggested that I look at the PIC
16F84 for this and that's all well and good but I need some suggestions
as to the additional parts and layout. The PCB I can do but I'll be
honest I'm no circuit designer and this is a little toy type thingy for
one of my kids so simple and sturdy would be good as well.

And info will be welcome

TIA

R Morton

Well I have heard a suggestion from an on line site that if I really
want an almost truly random pattern I should look at using a
"microcontroller running a PRBS (pseudo-random bit sequence) algorithm.
That gives much better randomness than any attempt to use multiple
separate oscillators, and it's also cheaper nowadays".

Well ok.????? Now does anyone have any ideas as to the controller and or
a component layout?

TIA
R Morton

 

[Mac]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:05:18 -0400, Master Raven wrote:

Master Raven wrote:
Hey all I'm toying with an idea and I need to pick some brains who I
hope know wayyy more than I do at this point. What I want to do is
control several high out put LED's and several EL-Wires all from the
same circuit running off 9V it's been suggested that I look at the PIC
16F84 for this and that's all well and good but I need some suggestions
as to the additional parts and layout. The PCB I can do but I'll be
honest I'm no circuit designer and this is a little toy type thingy for
one of my kids so simple and sturdy would be good as well.

And info will be welcome

TIA

R Morton

Well I have heard a suggestion from an on line site that if I really
want an almost truly random pattern I should look at using a
"microcontroller running a PRBS (pseudo-random bit sequence) algorithm.
That gives much better randomness than any attempt to use multiple
separate oscillators, and it's also cheaper nowadays".

Well ok.????? Now does anyone have any ideas as to the controller and or
a component layout?

TIA
R Morton

I don't know what an EL wire is. In fact, I can't make heads or tails out
of most of your post.

But, I believe a PRBS is what a linear feedback shift register spits out.
You can search the web for "linear feedback shift register" or LFSR.

You don't even need a micro-controller for one. You can build one from a
shift register and a clock (and a few logic gates). Hence the name. ;-)

Note that for your purposes, it might be adequate to have one LFSR and
conect different LED's to different bits on the LFSR. You wouldn't need
multiple LFSR's.

HTH!

--Mac

 

[Master Raven]

Mac wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:05:18 -0400, Master Raven wrote:


Master Raven wrote:

Hey all I'm toying with an idea and I need to pick some brains who I
hope know wayyy more than I do at this point. What I want to do is
control several high out put LED's and several EL-Wires all from the
same circuit running off 9V it's been suggested that I look at the PIC
16F84 for this and that's all well and good but I need some suggestions
as to the additional parts and layout. The PCB I can do but I'll be
honest I'm no circuit designer and this is a little toy type thingy for
one of my kids so simple and sturdy would be good as well.

And info will be welcome

TIA

R Morton

Well I have heard a suggestion from an on line site that if I really
want an almost truly random pattern I should look at using a
"microcontroller running a PRBS (pseudo-random bit sequence) algorithm.
That gives much better randomness than any attempt to use multiple
separate oscillators, and it's also cheaper nowadays".

Well ok.????? Now does anyone have any ideas as to the controller and or
a component layout?

TIA
R Morton


I don't know what an EL wire is. In fact, I can't make heads or tails out
of most of your post.

But, I believe a PRBS is what a linear feedback shift register spits out.
You can search the web for "linear feedback shift register" or LFSR.

You don't even need a micro-controller for one. You can build one from a
shift register and a clock (and a few logic gates). Hence the name. ;-)

Note that for your purposes, it might be adequate to have one LFSR and
conect different LED's to different bits on the LFSR. You wouldn't need
multiple LFSR's.

HTH!

--Mac

Hey Mac,

Sorry if my post is not totally clear, it is to me but then I posted it
Ok what I want to do is turn on and off several high out put LED's
the really bright ones but I'm not talking the 5W jobs just the super
bright water clear LED's At what appears to be a random rate. Also I
want the circuit to also control what is called EL-Wire or
Electroluminescent Wire think of a florescent tube but it's a wire. So
what I'm looking for is a schematic for a controller that can handle
several outputs either directly (in the case of the LED's) or via
miniature relays for the EL Wire. Is that clearer I hope so, any
thoughts or advise. I'm asking here because I can do the PCB layout and
the building but not the actual design.

TIA
R Morton

 

[martin griffith]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:05:18 -0400, in sci.electronics.design Master
Raven <master_raven@rogers.com> wrote:

Master Raven wrote:
Hey all I'm toying with an idea and I need to pick some brains who I
hope know wayyy more than I do at this point. What I want to do is
control several high out put LED's and several EL-Wires all from the
same circuit running off 9V it's been suggested that I look at the PIC
16F84 for this and that's all well and good but I need some suggestions
as to the additional parts and layout. The PCB I can do but I'll be
honest I'm no circuit designer and this is a little toy type thingy for
one of my kids so simple and sturdy would be good as well.

And info will be welcome

TIA

R Morton

Well I have heard a suggestion from an on line site that if I really
want an almost truly random pattern I should look at using a
"microcontroller running a PRBS (pseudo-random bit sequence) algorithm.
That gives much better randomness than any attempt to use multiple
separate oscillators, and it's also cheaper nowadays".

Well ok.????? Now does anyone have any ideas as to the controller and or
a component layout?

TIA
R Morton
Just changed my default search engine in Firefox from Gurgle to

wikipedia, by mistake, but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_feedback_shift_register was the
first hit, a good one

Think I've made a good mistake




martin

 

[Mac]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:03:48 -0400, Master Raven wrote:

Mac wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:05:18 -0400, Master Raven wrote:


Master Raven wrote:

Hey all I'm toying with an idea and I need to pick some brains who I
hope know wayyy more than I do at this point. What I want to do is
control several high out put LED's and several EL-Wires all from the
same circuit running off 9V it's been suggested that I look at the PIC
16F84 for this and that's all well and good but I need some suggestions
as to the additional parts and layout. The PCB I can do but I'll be
honest I'm no circuit designer and this is a little toy type thingy for
one of my kids so simple and sturdy would be good as well.

And info will be welcome

TIA

R Morton

Well I have heard a suggestion from an on line site that if I really
want an almost truly random pattern I should look at using a
"microcontroller running a PRBS (pseudo-random bit sequence) algorithm.
That gives much better randomness than any attempt to use multiple
separate oscillators, and it's also cheaper nowadays".

Well ok.????? Now does anyone have any ideas as to the controller and or
a component layout?

TIA
R Morton


I don't know what an EL wire is. In fact, I can't make heads or tails out
of most of your post.

But, I believe a PRBS is what a linear feedback shift register spits out.
You can search the web for "linear feedback shift register" or LFSR.

You don't even need a micro-controller for one. You can build one from a
shift register and a clock (and a few logic gates). Hence the name. ;-)

Note that for your purposes, it might be adequate to have one LFSR and
conect different LED's to different bits on the LFSR. You wouldn't need
multiple LFSR's.

HTH!

--Mac

Hey Mac,
Sorry if my post is not totally clear, it is to me but then I posted it
Ok what I want to do is turn on and off several high out put LED's
the really bright ones but I'm not talking the 5W jobs just the super
bright water clear LED's At what appears to be a random rate. Also I
want the circuit to also control what is called EL-Wire or
Electroluminescent Wire think of a florescent tube but it's a wire. So
what I'm looking for is a schematic for a controller that can handle
several outputs either directly (in the case of the LED's) or via
miniature relays for the EL Wire. Is that clearer I hope so, any
thoughts or advise. I'm asking here because I can do the PCB layout and
the building but not the actual design.

TIA
R Morton

Yes, it is somewhat clearer.

I think a LFSR will work. Go google for LFSR circuits and see what you
think.

So, if someone were to give you a schematic of the LFSR part, and point
you to the logical outputs which toggle in a pseudo-random fashion, could
you do the rest of the design?

BTW, how many outputs do you actually want, and how fast do you want them
to change? For example, would 2 Hz be a good rate? This would mean
that twice per second at least one of the outputs would change.

--Mac

 

[Master Raven]

Master Raven wrote:

Mac wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:03:48 -0400, Master Raven wrote:


Mac wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:05:18 -0400, Master Raven wrote:



Master Raven wrote:


Hey all I'm toying with an idea and I need to pick some brains who
I hope know wayyy more than I do at this point. What I want to do
is control several high out put LED's and several EL-Wires all
from the same circuit running off 9V it's been suggested that I
look at the PIC 16F84 for this and that's all well and good but I
need some suggestions as to the additional parts and layout. The
PCB I can do but I'll be honest I'm no circuit designer and this
is a little toy type thingy for one of my kids so simple and
sturdy would be good as well.

And info will be welcome

TIA

R Morton


Well I have heard a suggestion from an on line site that if I
really want an almost truly random pattern I should look at using a
"microcontroller running a PRBS (pseudo-random bit sequence)
algorithm. That gives much better randomness than any attempt to
use multiple separate oscillators, and it's also cheaper nowadays".

Well ok.????? Now does anyone have any ideas as to the controller
and or a component layout?

TIA
R Morton



I don't know what an EL wire is. In fact, I can't make heads or
tails out
of most of your post.

But, I believe a PRBS is what a linear feedback shift register spits
out.
You can search the web for "linear feedback shift register" or LFSR.

You don't even need a micro-controller for one. You can build one
from a
shift register and a clock (and a few logic gates). Hence the name.
;-)

Note that for your purposes, it might be adequate to have one LFSR and
conect different LED's to different bits on the LFSR. You wouldn't need
multiple LFSR's.

HTH!

--Mac


Hey Mac,
Sorry if my post is not totally clear, it is to me but then I posted
it Ok what I want to do is turn on and off several high out put
LED's the really bright ones but I'm not talking the 5W jobs just the
super bright water clear LED's At what appears to be a random rate.
Also I want the circuit to also control what is called EL-Wire or
Electroluminescent Wire think of a florescent tube but it's a wire.
So what I'm looking for is a schematic for a controller that can
handle several outputs either directly (in the case of the LED's) or
via miniature relays for the EL Wire. Is that clearer I hope so, any
thoughts or advise. I'm asking here because I can do the PCB layout
and the building but not the actual design.

TIA
R Morton



Yes, it is somewhat clearer.

I think a LFSR will work. Go google for LFSR circuits and see what you
think.

So, if someone were to give you a schematic of the LFSR part, and point
you to the logical outputs which toggle in a pseudo-random fashion, could
you do the rest of the design?

BTW, how many outputs do you actually want, and how fast do you want them
to change? For example, would 2 Hz be a good rate? This would mean
that twice per second at least one of the outputs would change.

--Mac


Thanks Mac,

I'll do the search I followed the other offered link but it only lead to
a description of what an LFSR was.

As to the Schematic aspect I'm pretty sure I can, I mean normally I can
but I would have to see the schematic first. Single or double sided
boards are not a problem I do things in a quasi old fashioned way of
doing the work in Corel Draw or Illustrator and then would just photo
etch the pcb or might have it laser cut if really detailed and with
tight register.

As to the out puts I'm flexible at this point say 5 LED's and 5 EL
wires. if it looks good and actually works I might look into expanding
it. And seeing as the EL wire uses an inverter I would use dual
inverters to reduce the bulk and just place the relays for them between
the inverters and the EL Wires themselves that way at any point an EL
Wire can light and will not have to wait for a possible slow inverter.

For the flash rate I would thing 1Hz or lower would make for a nice
color change and not be to strobe like.

Thanks again

Richard

Just a recap. Suggestions so far received include.

"microcontroller running a PRBS (pseudo-random bit sequence) algorithm.
That gives much better randomness than any attempt to use multiple
separate oscillators
Using a PIC 16F84
And building a LFSR circuit.
These are all great but none have suggested where I might find a
schematic employing any of these devices.

I have googled for LFSR circuits and again got loads of info about
LFSR's and theories employing them but no actual schematics. Only
software references or code information.

 

[Mac]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 16:55:22 -0400, Master Raven wrote:

Mac wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:03:48 -0400, Master Raven wrote:


Mac wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:05:18 -0400, Master Raven wrote:



Master Raven wrote:


Hey all I'm toying with an idea and I need to pick some brains who I
hope know wayyy more than I do at this point. What I want to do is
control several high out put LED's and several EL-Wires all from the
same circuit running off 9V it's been suggested that I look at the PIC
16F84 for this and that's all well and good but I need some suggestions
as to the additional parts and layout. The PCB I can do but I'll be
honest I'm no circuit designer and this is a little toy type thingy for
one of my kids so simple and sturdy would be good as well.

And info will be welcome

TIA

R Morton

Well I have heard a suggestion from an on line site that if I really
want an almost truly random pattern I should look at using a
"microcontroller running a PRBS (pseudo-random bit sequence) algorithm.
That gives much better randomness than any attempt to use multiple
separate oscillators, and it's also cheaper nowadays".

Well ok.????? Now does anyone have any ideas as to the controller and or
a component layout?

TIA
R Morton


I don't know what an EL wire is. In fact, I can't make heads or tails out
of most of your post.

But, I believe a PRBS is what a linear feedback shift register spits out.
You can search the web for "linear feedback shift register" or LFSR.

You don't even need a micro-controller for one. You can build one from a
shift register and a clock (and a few logic gates). Hence the name. ;-)

Note that for your purposes, it might be adequate to have one LFSR and
conect different LED's to different bits on the LFSR. You wouldn't need
multiple LFSR's.

HTH!

--Mac


Hey Mac,
Sorry if my post is not totally clear, it is to me but then I posted it
Ok what I want to do is turn on and off several high out put LED's
the really bright ones but I'm not talking the 5W jobs just the super
bright water clear LED's At what appears to be a random rate. Also I
want the circuit to also control what is called EL-Wire or
Electroluminescent Wire think of a florescent tube but it's a wire. So
what I'm looking for is a schematic for a controller that can handle
several outputs either directly (in the case of the LED's) or via
miniature relays for the EL Wire. Is that clearer I hope so, any
thoughts or advise. I'm asking here because I can do the PCB layout and
the building but not the actual design.

TIA
R Morton


Yes, it is somewhat clearer.

I think a LFSR will work. Go google for LFSR circuits and see what you
think.

So, if someone were to give you a schematic of the LFSR part, and point
you to the logical outputs which toggle in a pseudo-random fashion, could
you do the rest of the design?

BTW, how many outputs do you actually want, and how fast do you want them
to change? For example, would 2 Hz be a good rate? This would mean
that twice per second at least one of the outputs would change.

--Mac


Thanks Mac,

I'll do the search I followed the other offered link but it only lead to
a description of what an LFSR was.

As to the Schematic aspect I'm pretty sure I can, I mean normally I can
but I would have to see the schematic first. Single or double sided
boards are not a problem I do things in a quasi old fashioned way of
doing the work in Corel Draw or Illustrator and then would just photo
etch the pcb or might have it laser cut if really detailed and with
tight register.

As to the out puts I'm flexible at this point say 5 LED's and 5 EL
wires. if it looks good and actually works I might look into expanding
it. And seeing as the EL wire uses an inverter I would use dual
inverters to reduce the bulk and just place the relays for them between
the inverters and the EL Wires themselves that way at any point an EL
Wire can light and will not have to wait for a possible slow inverter.

For the flash rate I would thing 1Hz or lower would make for a nice
color change and not be to strobe like.

Thanks again

Richard

I'll try describing this in words. Not sure I have time to make a real
schematic.

You need a 10-bit D flip-flop. Each D flip flop has an input (D) and an
output (Q). In most cases you want to connect the output to the input of
the next flip flop. For example, you want to connect Q1 to D2, and Q2 to
D3, etc.

I think this part, which has 10 D flip-flops on it will work:
74AC821

There are a variety of parts that are 74[something]821. Almost any of them
will probably work.

For D1, you need to do something different. You want to hook up Q10 xor Q7
to D1.

You will need an xor gate for this. The 74AC86 should do it. Or
74[something]86.

You will need to regulate the 9V down to 5V. Try a 7805 for this. Tie the
unused inputs to ground.

You will need a clock. You can design a clock with a Schmitt trigger
inverter, a resistor and a capacitor. A Schmitt trigger might be the
74AC14. The AC could be something else, just like the other parts. You can
experiement with resistor and capacitor values. Maybe 100 K and 10 uF to
start with. To go faster, use smaller resistors or smaller capacitors.

There is one other issue, which is that LFSR's can get stuck if they ever
get into a state where all bits are zero. You either have to detect that
state, and force one of the bits to 1 when it happens, or provide a
push-button which forces one of the bits to 1, or something. Probably this
can be done with a pushbutton and one of the extra XOR gates.

Let me know if you need more guidance. Or maybe you can try to draw a
schematic and post it, somehow, then people can provide corrections or
suggestions.

Q1 through Q10 are your logic outputs. Many logic families can drive an
LED (with a suitable resistor in series). So you could hook your LED's up
to these outputs directly.

That's all I have time for at the moment.

--Mac

 

[Master Raven]

Master Raven wrote:

Hey all I'm toying with an idea and I need to pick some brains who I
hope know wayyy more than I do at this point. What I want to do is
control several high out put LED's and several EL-Wires all from the
same circuit running off 9V it's been suggested that I look at the PIC
16F84 for this and that's all well and good but I need some suggestions
as to the additional parts and layout. The PCB I can do but I'll be
honest I'm no circuit designer and this is a little toy type thingy for
one of my kids so simple and sturdy would be good as well.

And info will be welcome

TIA

R Morton

just testing to see if my ISP is blocking attachments

 

[Master Raven]

Master Raven wrote:

Hey all I'm toying with an idea and I need to pick some brains who I
hope know wayyy more than I do at this point. What I want to do is
control several high out put LED's and several EL-Wires all from the
same circuit running off 9V it's been suggested that I look at the PIC
16F84 for this and that's all well and good but I need some suggestions
as to the additional parts and layout. The PCB I can do but I'll be
honest I'm no circuit designer and this is a little toy type thingy for
one of my kids so simple and sturdy would be good as well.

And info will be welcome

TIA

R Morton
test again

 

[Mac]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:01:22 -0400, Master Raven wrote:

Master Raven wrote:
Hey all I'm toying with an idea and I need to pick some brains who I
hope know wayyy more than I do at this point. What I want to do is
control several high out put LED's and several EL-Wires all from the
same circuit running off 9V it's been suggested that I look at the PIC
16F84 for this and that's all well and good but I need some suggestions
as to the additional parts and layout. The PCB I can do but I'll be
honest I'm no circuit designer and this is a little toy type thingy for
one of my kids so simple and sturdy would be good as well.

And info will be welcome

TIA

R Morton

just testing to see if my ISP is blocking attachments

You can't post schematics to usenet groups which don't have the word
"binary" or "binaries" in them.

Try alt.binaries.schematics.electronic. Or maybe it is electronics. I
don't remember. But you can probably find it.

--Mac