Lithium-ion Battery Degradation...

R

Ricky

Guest
Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile devices have the lifespan they do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:
Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery
life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile
devices have the lifespan they do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw
Click to expand...

Can\'t you give us a little summary? We don\'t all have
infinite free time.

Jeroen Belleman
 
On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 9:41:17 AM UTC-7, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:
Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery
life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile
devices have the lifespan they do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

Can\'t you give us a little summary? We don\'t all have
infinite free time.

Jeroen Belleman
Click to expand...

Drive less, charge less, last longer.
 
On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 12:41:17 PM UTC-4, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:
Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery
life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile
devices have the lifespan they do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

Can\'t you give us a little summary? We don\'t all have
infinite free time.
Click to expand...

Basically he said, if you drive anything other than a Leaf, \"Don\'t worry, be happy!\"

The useful info starts around 9 minutes in.

https://youtu.be/IHz-Kx5h_Tw?t=536

He does discuss that there are mechanisms that degrade a battery based on use and mechanisms that degrade a battery based on age. He talks about the age issue very little, but it would not seem to show up in the data much at all. While there may be some degradation with age, the guy with a 36 year old truck with 250,000 miles on it, is the only person in this group who might actually have a real concern. But if he buys a new ICE truck before they stop being made, he can probably be buried with it still in runnable condition... if he can find gas.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Friday, 20 May 2022 at 14:41:49 UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:27:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:

Martin Rid <martin...@verison.net> wrote:

Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> Wrote in message:r
Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10,
Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded)
of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries
in mobile>> devices have the lifespan they do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can\'t you give us a
little summary? We don\'t all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen
Belleman

Snip
7. Batteries are getting better

That\'s sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.

Cheers
[...]
EV batteries are already a huge business, and will only grow. We can
expect to see development similar to the vacuum tube, transistor,
integrated circuit, internet, etc.
It looks like this might be an excellent field to get into, if you
understand electronics. Excellent growth prospects, assured future, high
demand, especially if you can also program. Another field would be Thorium
Molten Salt, but that needs a bit more time to mature.

Of course, skip Fusion.




--
MRM
Another thing you won\'t hear from the Woke crowd are the serious environmental impacts from mining lithium. Well, it is BAD!
https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/YTdnPhIAACIAGuF3
Click to expand...

But so is oil production bad - and a conventional car needs to be provided with fuel for its entire life, not just once.

kw
 
Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 9:41:17 AM UTC-7, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:
Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery
life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile
devices have the lifespan they do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

Can\'t you give us a little summary? We don\'t all have
infinite free time.

Jeroen Belleman

Drive less, charge less, last longer.
Click to expand...

Lol, and well said. Not sure how anybody can expand that into some 25
minute viseo.
 
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:
Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery
life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile
devices have the lifespan they do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw


Can\'t you give us a little summary? We don\'t all have
infinite free time.

Jeroen Belleman
Click to expand...

1. Set Playback Speed to 1.5

2. Set time to 8:23 Why do Lithium Ion Batteries Lose Capacity

3. 14:15 What Makes Degradation Worse

4. Lots of complex variables

5. Some battery types are better than others

6. Batteries wear out, same as engines and other mechanical parts

7. Batteries are getting better



--
MRM
 
On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 2:00:50 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 9:41:17 AM UTC-7, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:
Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery
life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile
devices have the lifespan they do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw

Can\'t you give us a little summary? We don\'t all have
infinite free time.

Jeroen Belleman

Drive less, charge less, last longer.
Lol, and well said. Not sure how anybody can expand that into some 25
minute viseo.
Click to expand...

That\'s actually all a Leaf driver would want to know, because if you watch the video, he talks repeatedly how important operation at elevated temperatures is much worse for the battery than operation at 20°C and below. People focus on operation at cold temperatures since it does impact the capacity and range, but operation at elevated temperatures permanently damages the capacity and range. The Leaf has no temperature control, not even a fan, to minimize impacts on the battery. The result is a measurable reduction in the lifespan of the battery in the Leaf. Ask Ed, he\'ll tell you his Leaf has very little range left.

If you drive a Leaf, you probably want to keep your head in the sand.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 2:53:36 PM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:

7. Batteries are getting better

NIMh was a step up, but the energy density of the lithium stuff is ever
better. Cordless power tools that work as good or better than corded ones
is reality these days.
Click to expand...

Alas, us homeowner occasional users are better off with the corded ones
for (1) always-ready without prior attention to charging, (2) availability of
spares in ten years when this battery is not charging, (3) availability
on both new and used market, (4) bench space to park chargers.

I\'ve got two-sub-C NiCd battery items, that probably won\'t ever get
new cells (though it might be worthwhile to rebuild \'em with a Lithium 18650 socket).
 
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:36:10 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:41:49 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:27:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:

Martin Rid <martin...@verison.net> wrote:

Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> Wrote in message:r
Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10,
Ricky wrote:
snip
Another thing you won\'t hear from the Woke crowd are the serious environmental impacts from mining lithium. Well, it is BAD!
https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/YTdnPhIAACIAGuF3
Bizarre. Flyguy posts link to nonsense from the woke crowd about serious environmental effects of lithium mining, then tells us that they wouldn\'t tell us about them.

All kinds of mineral extraction do make some kind of mess, but the mining companies can be persuaded to spend some of the money they make from selling the useful part of what they dig up on tidying up after them. We\'ve been mining stuff since stone age, and we\'ve gotten better at making miners clean up after themselves. Flyguy is an ignorant idiot, so he hasn\'t noticed.

--
SNIPPERMAN, Sydney
Click to expand...

Hey SNIPPERMAN, did you actually READ the reference? I truly doubt it, being the moron that you are. You didn\'t dispute a SINGLE thing in that reference, not the amount of water required or the environmental damage that is being created. Are you a TOTAL IDIOT? I would say so.
 
Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> Wrote in message:r
> Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile>> devices have the lifespan they do.>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can\'t you give us a little summary? We don\'t all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen Belleman

Snip
7. Batteries are getting better

That\'s sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.

Cheers


--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html
 
Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> Wrote in message:r
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile>> devices have the lifespan they do.>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can\'t you give us a little summary? We don\'t all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen Belleman

Snip
7. Batteries are getting better

That\'s sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.
Click to expand...

I don\'t think anybody misses running \"portable\" electronics off lead acid
batteries.

NIMh was a step up, but the energy density of the lithium stuff is ever
better. Cordless power tools that work as good or better than corded ones
is reality these days.

Batteries have really come a long way in the past 20 years. Things we have
now like RC drones are just not possible with lead acid or nickel cadmium
batteries, unless a 3 minute flight time is long enough.
 
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 2:04:53 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:36:10 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 7:41:49 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:27:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:
Martin Rid <martin...@verison.net> wrote:
Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> Wrote in message:r
Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10,
Ricky wrote:
snip
Another thing you won\'t hear from the Woke crowd are the serious environmental impacts from mining lithium. Well, it is BAD!
https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/YTdnPhIAACIAGuF3
Bizarre. Flyguy posts link to nonsense from the woke crowd about serious environmental effects of lithium mining, then tells us that they wouldn\'t tell us about them.

All kinds of mineral extraction do make some kind of mess, but the mining companies can be persuaded to spend some of the money they make from selling the useful part of what they dig up on tidying up after them. We\'ve been mining stuff since stone age, and we\'ve gotten better at making miners clean up after themselves. Flyguy is an ignorant idiot, so he hasn\'t noticed..

Hey Sloman, did you actually READ the reference? I truly doubt it, being the moron that you are. You didn\'t dispute a SINGLE thing in that reference, not the amount of water required or the environmental damage that is being created. Are you a TOTAL IDIOT? I would say so.
Click to expand...

Of course you would. I characterised it as nonsense from the woke crowd after I read enough of it to work out what it was.

There\'s not a lot of point criticising environmentalist propaganda from the woke crowd. Their numbers never mean what they think they mean, and they are just as wedded to their idiotic misconceptions as you are.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
Cydrome Leader wrote:

> Batteries have really come a long way in the past 20 years.

Indeed. I don\'t think that lead-acid batteries could do this trick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r-yN8SugWM

Best regards, Piotr
 
Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> Wrote in message:r
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10,
Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded)
of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries
in mobile>> devices have the lifespan they do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can\'t you give us a
little summary? We don\'t all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen
Belleman

Snip
7. Batteries are getting better

That\'s sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Fusion has fundamental roadblocks that cannot be overcome. The solution to
energy is Thorium Molten Salt.

Battery technology is constantly improving. EV performance is already much
better than at the beginning, and new materials are showing good promise. A
brief search of google and Youtube gives a plethora of new avenues that are
starting to pan out. Examples are:

Carbon Nanotube Electrodes
Organosilicon electrolyte batteries
lithium sulfur
sodium batteries
Graphene batteries

The top 10 EV battery manufacturers by market share are all headquartered
in Asia:

Rank Company 2021 Market Share Country
#1 CATL 32.5% China
#2 LG Energy Solution 21.5% Korea
#3 Panasonic 14.7% Japan
#4 BYD 6.9% China
#5 Samsung SDI 5.4% Korea
#6 SK Innovation 5.1% Korea
#7 CALB 2.7% China
#8 AESC 2.0% Japan
#9 Guoxuan 2.0% China
#10 PEVE 1.3% Japan
n/a Other 6.1%

With ICE being phased out and the emphasis on EV, the competition to
develop improved battery technology is fierce.

Next-generation battery technologies are already being developed by U.S.
companies, including Ionic Materials, QuantumScape, Sila Nanotechnologies,
Sion Power, and Sionic Energy.

The results are already apparent. CATL released its first-gen sodium-ion
battery in July, 2021. Its single-cell energy density can reach 160Wh/Kg
with very fast charge times.

EV batteries are already a huge business, and will only grow. We can expect
to see development similar to the vacuum tube, transistor, integrated
circuit, internet, etc.



--
MRM
 
On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 5:53:36 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Martin Rid <martin...@verison.net> wrote:
Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> Wrote in message:r
Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10, Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded) of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries in mobile>> devices have the lifespan they do.>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can\'t you give us a little summary? We don\'t all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen Belleman

Snip
7. Batteries are getting better

That\'s sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.
I don\'t think anybody misses running \"portable\" electronics off lead acid
batteries.

NIMh was a step up, but the energy density of the lithium stuff is ever
better. Cordless power tools that work as good or better than corded ones
is reality these days.

Batteries have really come a long way in the past 20 years. Things we have
now like RC drones are just not possible with lead acid or nickel cadmium
batteries, unless a 3 minute flight time is long enough.
Click to expand...

Like most things, advancements in technology are strongly correlated to the amount of money that is involved in the marketing and sales of the items enabled by that technology. With literally trillions of dollars being at stake, you will see enormous advancements in EV batteries over the next five and ten years, and probably onward.

I\'m just hoping they will make some available as retrofits.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
Piotr Wyderski <bombald@protonmail.com> wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote:

Batteries have really come a long way in the past 20 years.

Indeed. I don\'t think that lead-acid batteries could do this trick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r-yN8SugWM

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

Isn\'t every vehicle in france on fire?
 
Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:

Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> Wrote in message:r
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10,
Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded)
of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries
in mobile>> devices have the lifespan they do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can\'t you give us a
little summary? We don\'t all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen
Belleman

Snip
7. Batteries are getting better

That\'s sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.

Cheers
Click to expand...

[...]

EV batteries are already a huge business, and will only grow. We can
expect to see development similar to the vacuum tube, transistor,
integrated circuit, internet, etc.
Click to expand...

It looks like this might be an excellent field to get into, if you
understand electronics. Excellent growth prospects, assured future, high
demand, especially if you can also program. Another field would be Thorium
Molten Salt, but that needs a bit more time to mature.

Of course, skip Fusion.




--
MRM
 
On 2022-05-20 18:15, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Piotr Wyderski <bombald@protonmail.com> wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote:

Batteries have really come a long way in the past 20 years.

Indeed. I don\'t think that lead-acid batteries could do this trick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r-yN8SugWM

Best regards, Piotr

Isn\'t every vehicle in france on fire?
Click to expand...

Nope, none that I can see,

Jeroen Belleman
 
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:27:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> wrote:

Martin Rid <martin...@verison.net> wrote:

Mike Monett <spa...@not.com> Wrote in message:r
Jeroen Belleman <jer...@nospam.please> wrote:> On 2022-05-19 17:10,
Ricky wrote:>> Here is a pretty good discussion (if a bit long winded)
of battery>> life in BEVs. It also explains a lot about why batteries
in mobile>> devices have the lifespan they do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw>>> > Can\'t you give us a
little summary? We don\'t all have> infinite free time.> > Jeroen
Belleman

Snip
7. Batteries are getting better

That\'s sort of like fusion energy is 20 years away.

Cheers
[...]
EV batteries are already a huge business, and will only grow. We can
expect to see development similar to the vacuum tube, transistor,
integrated circuit, internet, etc.
It looks like this might be an excellent field to get into, if you
understand electronics. Excellent growth prospects, assured future, high
demand, especially if you can also program. Another field would be Thorium
Molten Salt, but that needs a bit more time to mature.

Of course, skip Fusion.




--
MRM
Click to expand...

Another thing you won\'t hear from the Woke crowd are the serious environmental impacts from mining lithium. Well, it is BAD!
https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/YTdnPhIAACIAGuF3
 
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