Line voltage north-eastern Australia?

[Joerg]

Gents,

Had posted this in s.e.design but was told that this is a much better
place to ask. The main reason is that I've heard some horror stories
from Australians about line voltages shooting up to 270V, UPSes blowing
up and so on, but this was more inland.

A product is going to be test marketed in Australia, northern half of
the east coast. We know the line voltage there is 240V/50Hz but not
which tolerances apply. The upper limit is important to us, and also
whether it tends to exceed whatever the standard might say. Can someone
elucidate?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[David]

On 31/03/2010 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:

Gents,

Had posted this in s.e.design but was told that this is a much better
place to ask. The main reason is that I've heard some horror stories
from Australians about line voltages shooting up to 270V, UPSes blowing
up and so on, but this was more inland.

A product is going to be test marketed in Australia, northern half of
the east coast. We know the line voltage there is 240V/50Hz but not
which tolerances apply. The upper limit is important to us, and also
whether it tends to exceed whatever the standard might say. Can someone
elucidate?

Yes, the line voltage often does exceed 240V.

The line voltages at my place (Sydney, north west, Hills area) are
257.3V, 259.4V, and 257.8V, at 2:10pm today. They do go higher at night.
The are about to bring a new substation on line. That may improve the
voltages.

Energy Australia (our local network provider), have a nominal tolerance
of 240+/- 6%, but allow it to vary from 216V to 264V active to neutral.

http://www2.energyaustralia.com.au/internet/pdfs/ENOS%20June%202009_published_.pdf


David

 

[Adam Anderson]

Is this the machine your going to test market?
http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/1820015

On 31/03/2010 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:

Gents,

Had posted this in s.e.design but was told that this is a much better
place to ask. The main reason is that I've heard some horror stories
from Australians about line voltages shooting up to 270V, UPSes blowing
up and so on, but this was more inland.

A product is going to be test marketed in Australia, northern half of
the east coast. We know the line voltage there is 240V/50Hz but not
which tolerances apply. The upper limit is important to us, and also
whether it tends to exceed whatever the standard might say. Can someone
elucidate?

 

[Joerg]

David wrote:

On 31/03/2010 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:
Gents,

Had posted this in s.e.design but was told that this is a much better
place to ask. The main reason is that I've heard some horror stories
from Australians about line voltages shooting up to 270V, UPSes blowing
up and so on, but this was more inland.

A product is going to be test marketed in Australia, northern half of
the east coast. We know the line voltage there is 240V/50Hz but not
which tolerances apply. The upper limit is important to us, and also
whether it tends to exceed whatever the standard might say. Can someone
elucidate?


Yes, the line voltage often does exceed 240V.

The line voltages at my place (Sydney, north west, Hills area) are
257.3V, 259.4V, and 257.8V, at 2:10pm today. They do go higher at night.
The are about to bring a new substation on line. That may improve the
voltages.

Energy Australia (our local network provider), have a nominal tolerance
of 240+/- 6%, but allow it to vary from 216V to 264V active to neutral.

Ouch!

http://www2.energyaustralia.com.au/internet/pdfs/ENOS%20June%202009_published_.pdf

Thanks, David, that is some great information. Not sure how we'll do
that with a transformer but we'll have to figure it out.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Joerg]

Adam Anderson wrote:

Is this the machine your going to test market?
http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/1820015

No, not that one

On 31/03/2010 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:
Gents,

Had posted this in s.e.design but was told that this is a much better
place to ask. The main reason is that I've heard some horror stories
from Australians about line voltages shooting up to 270V, UPSes blowing
up and so on, but this was more inland.

A product is going to be test marketed in Australia, northern half of
the east coast. We know the line voltage there is 240V/50Hz but not
which tolerances apply. The upper limit is important to us, and also
whether it tends to exceed whatever the standard might say. Can someone
elucidate?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

Joerg wrote:

David wrote:
On 31/03/2010 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:
Gents,

Had posted this in s.e.design but was told that this is a much
better place to ask. The main reason is that I've heard some horror
stories from Australians about line voltages shooting up to 270V,
UPSes blowing up and so on, but this was more inland.

A product is going to be test marketed in Australia, northern half
of the east coast. We know the line voltage there is 240V/50Hz but
not which tolerances apply. The upper limit is important to us, and
also whether it tends to exceed whatever the standard might say.
Can someone elucidate?


Yes, the line voltage often does exceed 240V.

The line voltages at my place (Sydney, north west, Hills area) are
257.3V, 259.4V, and 257.8V, at 2:10pm today. They do go higher at
night. The are about to bring a new substation on line. That may
improve the voltages.

Energy Australia (our local network provider), have a nominal
tolerance of 240+/- 6%, but allow it to vary from 216V to 264V
active to neutral.

Ouch!


http://www2.energyaustralia.com.au/internet/pdfs/ENOS%20June%202009_published_.pdf


Thanks, David, that is some great information. Not sure how we'll do
that with a transformer but we'll have to figure it out.

**Ask an Australian manufacturer of similar equipment, or source your
transformer/s from an Australian transformer manufacturer. They're well
aware of the local conditions and seem to manage quite well. That said,
except for Perth, most of the major cities in Australia have quite
respectable mains Voltage tolerances. IME, the biggest problem with
US-sourced equipment is that transformer manufacturers in the US appear to
have no idea that Australia operates on 50Hz, rather than 60Hz. The
resulting crappy transformers perform very poorly indeed. Mind you: Bad as
some US transformers may be, Chinese ones can be worse.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Joerg]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

Joerg wrote:
David wrote:
On 31/03/2010 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:
Gents,

Had posted this in s.e.design but was told that this is a much
better place to ask. The main reason is that I've heard some horror
stories from Australians about line voltages shooting up to 270V,
UPSes blowing up and so on, but this was more inland.

A product is going to be test marketed in Australia, northern half
of the east coast. We know the line voltage there is 240V/50Hz but
not which tolerances apply. The upper limit is important to us, and
also whether it tends to exceed whatever the standard might say.
Can someone elucidate?

Yes, the line voltage often does exceed 240V.

The line voltages at my place (Sydney, north west, Hills area) are
257.3V, 259.4V, and 257.8V, at 2:10pm today. They do go higher at
night. The are about to bring a new substation on line. That may
improve the voltages.

Energy Australia (our local network provider), have a nominal
tolerance of 240+/- 6%, but allow it to vary from 216V to 264V
active to neutral.
Ouch!


http://www2.energyaustralia.com.au/internet/pdfs/ENOS%20June%202009_published_.pdf

Thanks, David, that is some great information. Not sure how we'll do
that with a transformer but we'll have to figure it out.

**Ask an Australian manufacturer of similar equipment, or source your
transformer/s from an Australian transformer manufacturer. They're well
aware of the local conditions and seem to manage quite well. That said,
except for Perth, most of the major cities in Australia have quite
respectable mains Voltage tolerances. ...

But the 257.8V measured by David near Sydney sounds quite scary. That's
+7.4% right there, a lot more than they allow even in the UK. 216V-264V
sounds even more scary.

... IME, the biggest problem with
US-sourced equipment is that transformer manufacturers in the US appear to
have no idea that Australia operates on 50Hz, rather than 60Hz. The
resulting crappy transformers perform very poorly indeed. Mind you: Bad as
some US transformers may be, Chinese ones can be worse.

We are in contact with the mfg and trying to arrive at a transformer
design that can take 50Hz and the required max voltage without too much
in core saturation. But at the same time we need to have enough minimum
output at the lowest expected voltage because there is a buck converter
at the other end. I wish there was a SEPIC instead.

To make matters worse, we are size-limited with the thing.

Electric motors are another issue, they really don't like undervoltage
operation. But they will most likely be sourced in Australia.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Joerg"

But the 257.8V measured by David near Sydney sounds quite scary. That's
+7.4% right there, a lot more than they allow even in the UK. 216V-264V
sounds even more scary.

** Any place North of Brisbane, the really scary things are crocodiles,
snakes and killer wombats.

Not to mention all the feral Queenslanders themselves ....



..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Joerg"

We are in contact with the mfg and trying to arrive at a transformer
design that can take 50Hz and the required max voltage without too much in
core saturation.

** The only thing you need to control is the final temperature of the
windings when in use - and that depends on the ambient temp, among other
things.

Northern Queensland get VERY hot and has very high humidity too.

When you get sample 240 volt transformers to try, apply full secondary
loading and run them at 265 x 60/50 = 318 volts AC at 60 Hz. This will
create the same primary magnetising current as 265 volts at 50Hz.

The temp rise of the primary needs to be no more than 50 degrees C.

Be aware of using thermal fuses with too low a temp rating.



..... Phil

 

[Mike Warren]

Phil Allison wrote:

Not to mention all the feral Queenslanders themselves ....

You called?

--
- Mike

 

[Joerg]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Joerg"

We are in contact with the mfg and trying to arrive at a transformer
design that can take 50Hz and the required max voltage without too much in
core saturation.


** The only thing you need to control is the final temperature of the
windings when in use - and that depends on the ambient temp, among other
things.

Northern Queensland get VERY hot and has very high humidity too.

Thanks, Phil, that's good to know.

When you get sample 240 volt transformers to try, apply full secondary
loading and run them at 265 x 60/50 = 318 volts AC at 60 Hz. This will
create the same primary magnetising current as 265 volts at 50Hz.

I have a jig here where I can dial in the frequency, for testing stuff
at 50, 60 and 400 Hertz.

The temp rise of the primary needs to be no more than 50 degrees C.

Be aware of using thermal fuses with too low a temp rating.

The 50C will be a challenge because we are constrained in transformer
size (to what they have in there now). Luckily we only need about 70% of
its current VA-rating.

And what out for them Northern Queenslanders. After what you said in the
other post they'll watch ya. "Oh, look, I think that's him!"

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Joerg"

Phil Allison wrote:

** The only thing you need to control is the final temperature of the
windings when in use - and that depends on the ambient temp, among other
things.

The temp rise of the primary needs to be no more than 50 degrees C.

Be aware of using thermal fuses with too low a temp rating.


The 50C will be a challenge because we are constrained in transformer size
(to what they have in there now). Luckily we only need about 70% of its
current VA-rating.

** Don't ya love they way this septic fool posts paragraphs where the first
and second sentences are in complete contradiction ??




..... Phil

 

[Joerg]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Joerg"
Phil Allison wrote:

** The only thing you need to control is the final temperature of the
windings when in use - and that depends on the ambient temp, among other
things.
The temp rise of the primary needs to be no more than 50 degrees C.

Be aware of using thermal fuses with too low a temp rating.

The 50C will be a challenge because we are constrained in transformer size
(to what they have in there now). Luckily we only need about 70% of its
current VA-rating.


** Don't ya love they way this septic fool posts paragraphs where the first
and second sentences are in complete contradiction ??

Says _current_ transformer up there, meaning the one we use right now,
for US only. Simply using an international version of that one will cook
itself out of the board at 264V. I've tried that.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Joerg = another Septic Fuckwit "

The 50C will be a challenge because we are constrained in transformer
size (to what they have in there now). Luckily we only need about 70% of
its current VA-rating.


** Don't ya love they way this septic fool posts paragraphs where the
first and second sentences are in complete contradiction ??


Says _current_ transformer up there, meaning the one we use right now,

** Blatant lie - there is no such wording.

The fuckwit only mentioned the SIZE of the transformer in use.

Simply using an international version of that one will cook itself out of
the board at 264V. I've tried that.

** But with all that SPARE capacity you claim to have, it can easily be
wound with more turns on the primary and secondary and the problem is
solved.

IDIOT !!!


...... Phil

 

[who where]

On Thu, 1 Apr 2010 05:48:54 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

**Ask an Australian manufacturer of similar equipment, or source your
transformer/s from an Australian transformer manufacturer. They're well
aware of the local conditions and seem to manage quite well. That said,
except for Perth, most of the major cities in Australia have quite
respectable mains Voltage tolerances.

And why do you believe that Perth has noticeably worse voltage
tolerance?

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"who where" <noone@home.net> wrote in message
news:5nmdr516v3vc7neafen9no73km8e32vivj@4ax.com...

On Thu, 1 Apr 2010 05:48:54 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

**Ask an Australian manufacturer of similar equipment, or source your
transformer/s from an Australian transformer manufacturer. They're well
aware of the local conditions and seem to manage quite well. That said,
except for Perth, most of the major cities in Australia have quite
respectable mains Voltage tolerances.

And why do you believe that Perth has noticeably worse voltage
tolerance?

**Because it does.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[who where]

On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 17:10:23 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
<trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

"who where" <noone@home.net> wrote in message
news:5nmdr516v3vc7neafen9no73km8e32vivj@4ax.com...
On Thu, 1 Apr 2010 05:48:54 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

**Ask an Australian manufacturer of similar equipment, or source your
transformer/s from an Australian transformer manufacturer. They're well
aware of the local conditions and seem to manage quite well. That said,
except for Perth, most of the major cities in Australia have quite
respectable mains Voltage tolerances.

And why do you believe that Perth has noticeably worse voltage
tolerance?

**Because it does.

Ah, now there's a convincing argument if ever I saw one.

Being an E.E. living here for 55 years, (and I doubt that you are,
Trevor) I can honestly say that Perth isn't any worse than the other
Aus states I have spent time in. Rural is another story, with SWER
systems being problematic anywhere.

A lot of this myth about Perth (and W.A.) originates from the fact
that while ROA had a nominal 240V system, we had a 254V supply until
late 20th century. (Actually it was not defined as single phase but as
440V phase-phase, 254 being the derived number). This grid voltage
selection originated when supply changed from 40Hz to 50Hz, to allow
existing plant to continue in service with minimum performance loss.

But hey, Trev, believe what you like.

 

[John G]

On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 10:16:42 +0800, who where <noone@home.net> wrote:

On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 17:10:23 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:


"who where" <noone@home.net> wrote in message
news:5nmdr516v3vc7neafen9no73km8e32vivj@4ax.com...
On Thu, 1 Apr 2010 05:48:54 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

**Ask an Australian manufacturer of similar equipment, or source your
transformer/s from an Australian transformer manufacturer. They're well
aware of the local conditions and seem to manage quite well. That said,
except for Perth, most of the major cities in Australia have quite
respectable mains Voltage tolerances.

And why do you believe that Perth has noticeably worse voltage
tolerance?

**Because it does.

Ah, now there's a convincing argument if ever I saw one.

Being an E.E. living here for 55 years, (and I doubt that you are,
Trevor) I can honestly say that Perth isn't any worse than the other
Aus states I have spent time in. Rural is another story, with SWER
systems being problematic anywhere.

A lot of this myth about Perth (and W.A.) originates from the fact
that while ROA had a nominal 240V system, we had a 254V supply until
late 20th century. (Actually it was not defined as single phase but as
440V phase-phase, 254 being the derived number). This grid voltage
selection originated when supply changed from 40Hz to 50Hz, to allow
existing plant to continue in service with minimum performance loss.

But hey, Trev, believe what you like.

And that the facts as I remeber them too.
Having worked for a nation wide computer company in those years we had
to consider the different voltage in the west when specifying
machines.

John G.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"who where" <noone@home.net> wrote in message
news:uchir51ockvsl9182v9mn0tlaj5jfes5sh@4ax.com...

On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 17:10:23 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:


"who where" <noone@home.net> wrote in message
news:5nmdr516v3vc7neafen9no73km8e32vivj@4ax.com...
On Thu, 1 Apr 2010 05:48:54 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

**Ask an Australian manufacturer of similar equipment, or source your
transformer/s from an Australian transformer manufacturer. They're well
aware of the local conditions and seem to manage quite well. That said,
except for Perth, most of the major cities in Australia have quite
respectable mains Voltage tolerances.

And why do you believe that Perth has noticeably worse voltage
tolerance?

**Because it does.

Ah, now there's a convincing argument if ever I saw one.

**You asked for the facts. I stated them.

Being an E.E. living here for 55 years, (and I doubt that you are,
Trevor) I can honestly say that Perth isn't any worse than the other
Aus states I have spent time in. Rural is another story, with SWER
systems being problematic anywhere.

A lot of this myth about Perth (and W.A.) originates from the fact
that while ROA had a nominal 240V system, we had a 254V supply until
late 20th century. (Actually it was not defined as single phase but as
440V phase-phase, 254 being the derived number). This grid voltage
selection originated when supply changed from 40Hz to 50Hz, to allow
existing plant to continue in service with minimum performance loss.

But hey, Trev, believe what you like.

**Again: It's not a belief. Back in the 1970s, I was service manager for a
hi fi importer. I noticed that service agents in WA (mostly Perth) ordered
far more parts than could be substantiated by the numbers of products in the
state, compared to all the other states. I questioned a couple of service
agents and they explained that mains Voltages were generally considerably
higher than 240VAC, for considerable periods. Thus failure rates were
higher. Since that time, I've maintained close connection with various
distributors around the country. Most report more problems (per number of
units sold) in WA than any other state.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Dyna Soar]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"who where" <noone@home.net> wrote in message
news:uchir51ockvsl9182v9mn0tlaj5jfes5sh@4ax.com...
On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 17:10:23 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

"who where" <noone@home.net> wrote in message
news:5nmdr516v3vc7neafen9no73km8e32vivj@4ax.com...
On Thu, 1 Apr 2010 05:48:54 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:

**Ask an Australian manufacturer of similar equipment, or source
your transformer/s from an Australian transformer manufacturer.
They're well aware of the local conditions and seem to manage
quite well. That said, except for Perth, most of the major cities
in Australia have quite respectable mains Voltage tolerances.

And why do you believe that Perth has noticeably worse voltage
tolerance?

**Because it does.

Ah, now there's a convincing argument if ever I saw one.

**You asked for the facts. I stated them.

No, that's not what he asked, he asked "Why do you believe that Perth has
noticeably worse voltage tolerance."

And facts? Your smart-arsed answer showed you really don't know. (So what
else is new?)

Being an E.E. living here for 55 years, (and I doubt that you are,
Trevor) I can honestly say that Perth isn't any worse than the other
Aus states I have spent time in. Rural is another story, with SWER
systems being problematic anywhere.

A lot of this myth about Perth (and W.A.) originates from the fact
that while ROA had a nominal 240V system, we had a 254V supply until
late 20th century. (Actually it was not defined as single phase but
as 440V phase-phase, 254 being the derived number). This grid
voltage selection originated when supply changed from 40Hz to 50Hz,
to allow existing plant to continue in service with minimum
performance loss.

But hey, Trev, believe what you like.

**Again: It's not a belief. Back in the 1970s, I was service manager
for a hi fi importer. I noticed that service agents in WA (mostly
Perth) ordered far more parts than could be substantiated by the
numbers of products in the state, compared to all the other states. I
questioned a couple of service agents and they explained that mains
Voltages were generally considerably higher than 240VAC, for
considerable periods. Thus failure rates were higher.

Bloody Hell!!! You're a dill! You're talking almost forty years ago...
*At that time*, Perth's nominal voltage was officially 254VAC and no secret
was made of that. Almost always, the mains were higher than 240 V. Most
Australian manufacturers, particularly of TV sets, had a 254 V (or 250 V)
mains input setting. If importers distributed under-rated equipment to a
market at odds with that market's then fully published standards, that's
surely their problem.
It progresses now throughout Australia with Seppo equipment at 220 or 230
volt 60Hz. Transformers very often do not have enough iron for use at
230/240 V 50 Hz, with consequently larger than normal failure rates.
(Switch mode PS had alleviated that a bit, of course.)

Since that
time, I've maintained close connection with various distributors
around the country. Most report more problems (per number of units
sold) in WA than any other state.

Bullshit. Your word, more than anyone else's in this group, is completely
suspect. Most of your postings demonstrate that. Put up some proof or go
back in your hole and shut up with the lies!

For almost two decades, Perth has had the same nominal voltage and tolerance
specs as the other states. Yet you continue to live in the past.

BTW, I understand BHP (Billiton), either until very recently or still, are
using 254 VAC (440V phase to phase) as their nominal on-site low power
voltage.


--
Dyna

All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged.