light bulb life extenders- do they really work?

J

Jon Shudderston

Guest
You know the kind I'm talking about... the little circular diode that fits
between the bulb and socket- do these really extend bulb life?

Thanks,
Jon
 
"Jon Shudderston" <shutters56812rt@email.net> writes:

You know the kind I'm talking about... the little circular diode that fits
between the bulb and socket- do these really extend bulb life?
Click to expand...
Yes, but only because they reduce the light output a little due to their
internal resistance/voltage drop. The life extensiion due to any claims
made by the manufacturer about soft start and so forth is minimal.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.
 
These remind me of a little button gadget that used to be called an energy
saver. Inside of the button is a little 1 or 2 amp silicon rectifier diode,
similar to a 1N4007, or something along that type of diode. It acts as a
crude voltage reducer, by putting 1/2 wave rectified DC on to the lamp, with
no filtration. The lamp will lose about 30% of the power factor going to it.
The exact amount can be worked out, if need be.

With this gadget, the illumination, and colour temperature output of the
lamp is also reduced when these are used. If you put a larger wattage lamp
to make up for this (as long as you do not exceed the rating of this
gadget), then there is no gain, and the colour temperature of the lamp will
still also be lower, thus producing a more reddish colour in the light. You
cannot use these with the compact florescent lamps.

I found these energy, or lamp savers to be a waste of time and money. If you
want to have a proper savings, use a lower wattage lamp, or use a compact
florescent lamp. With the proper approach, the colour temperature of your
light source will not be effected. To me this is just another gadget, that
has some compromises.


--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"Jon Shudderston" <shutters56812rt@email.net> wrote in message
news:5%t9c.2959$yN6.1903@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
You know the kind I'm talking about... the little circular diode that fits
between the bulb and socket- do these really extend bulb life?

Thanks,
Jon
 
Thanks to all for your comments. I guess I'll save the $2.?? on such a
device and use a lower wattage bulb.

Jon

"Jerry G." <jerryg50@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c46re1$bcv$2@news.eusc.inter.net...
These remind me of a little button gadget that used to be called an energy
saver. Inside of the button is a little 1 or 2 amp silicon rectifier
diode,
similar to a 1N4007, or something along that type of diode. It acts as a
crude voltage reducer, by putting 1/2 wave rectified DC on to the lamp,
with
no filtration. The lamp will lose about 30% of the power factor going to
it.
The exact amount can be worked out, if need be.

With this gadget, the illumination, and colour temperature output of the
lamp is also reduced when these are used. If you put a larger wattage lamp
to make up for this (as long as you do not exceed the rating of this
gadget), then there is no gain, and the colour temperature of the lamp
will
still also be lower, thus producing a more reddish colour in the light.
You
cannot use these with the compact florescent lamps.

I found these energy, or lamp savers to be a waste of time and money. If
you
want to have a proper savings, use a lower wattage lamp, or use a compact
florescent lamp. With the proper approach, the colour temperature of your
light source will not be effected. To me this is just another gadget, that
has some compromises.


--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"Jon Shudderston" <shutters56812rt@email.net> wrote in message
news:5%t9c.2959$yN6.1903@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
You know the kind I'm talking about... the little circular diode that fits
between the bulb and socket- do these really extend bulb life?

Thanks,
Jon
Click to expand...
 
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:43:41 GMT, "Jon Shudderston"
<shutters56812rt@email.net> wrote:

Thanks to all for your comments. I guess I'll save the $2.?? on such a
device and use a lower wattage bulb.

Jon
Click to expand...
Not to disagree with Jerry but I'd always been told in the past that
lightbulbs would last longer on DC than AC.
Correct me if I'm wrong but that was what was taught in the old school
days.
"Jerry G." <jerryg50@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c46re1$bcv$2@news.eusc.inter.net...
These remind me of a little button gadget that used to be called an energy
saver. Inside of the button is a little 1 or 2 amp silicon rectifier
diode,
similar to a 1N4007, or something along that type of diode. It acts as a
crude voltage reducer, by putting 1/2 wave rectified DC on to the lamp,
with
no filtration. The lamp will lose about 30% of the power factor going to
it.
The exact amount can be worked out, if need be.

With this gadget, the illumination, and colour temperature output of the
lamp is also reduced when these are used. If you put a larger wattage lamp
to make up for this (as long as you do not exceed the rating of this
gadget), then there is no gain, and the colour temperature of the lamp
will
still also be lower, thus producing a more reddish colour in the light.
You
cannot use these with the compact florescent lamps.

I found these energy, or lamp savers to be a waste of time and money. If
you
want to have a proper savings, use a lower wattage lamp, or use a compact
florescent lamp. With the proper approach, the colour temperature of your
light source will not be effected. To me this is just another gadget, that
has some compromises.


--

Greetings,

Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================


"Jon Shudderston" <shutters56812rt@email.net> wrote in message
news:5%t9c.2959$yN6.1903@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
You know the kind I'm talking about... the little circular diode that fits
between the bulb and socket- do these really extend bulb life?

Thanks,
Jon
Click to expand...
 
gothika wrote:

Not to disagree with Jerry but I'd always been told in the past that
lightbulbs would last longer on DC than AC.
Correct me if I'm wrong but that was what was taught in the old school
days.
Click to expand...
In this case, although its 'DC', its still pulsating at 60 cps with only
a simple diode since there's no reservoir capacitor to sustain the
voltage between cycles. Its just that the other side of the cycle has
been chopped off.
So, if DC is better than AC from the standpoint of the tiny heat/cool
factor from AC it could in fact be WORSE with the diode gizmo since the
cooling cycle is longer.

-BM
 
"Jerry G." <jerryg50@hotmail.com> writes:

These remind me of a little button gadget that used to be called an energy
saver. Inside of the button is a little 1 or 2 amp silicon rectifier diode,
similar to a 1N4007, or something along that type of diode. It acts as a
crude voltage reducer, by putting 1/2 wave rectified DC on to the lamp, with
no filtration. The lamp will lose about 30% of the power factor going to it.
The exact amount can be worked out, if need be.

With this gadget, the illumination, and colour temperature output of the
lamp is also reduced when these are used. If you put a larger wattage lamp
to make up for this (as long as you do not exceed the rating of this
gadget), then there is no gain, and the colour temperature of the lamp will
Click to expand...
Actually, there is a loss since the larger wattage bulb will be running
at a lower filament voltage with lower efficiency.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.
 
"Jon Shudderston" <shutters56812rt@email.net> writes:

Thanks to all for your comments. I guess I'll save the $2.?? on such a
device and use a lower wattage bulb.
Click to expand...
As others have noted, use a compact fluorescent if the fixture can hold
it. They are about 4 times the efficiency of incandescent lamps and last
5,000 to 10,000 hours. The bulb cost is more than made up in power savings
during the first 750 to 1,000 hours - the life of a typical incandescent.

I've been happy with the spiral CFLs from GE and their clones. I have
a dozen or so places that see a lot of use. The color is close enough
to an incandescent as not to be an issue.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.
 
gothika <Vampyres@nettaxi.com> writes:

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 15:43:41 GMT, "Jon Shudderston"
shutters56812rt@email.net> wrote:

Thanks to all for your comments. I guess I'll save the $2.?? on such a
device and use a lower wattage bulb.
Click to expand...
If anything, it's the other way around. Only very near the end-of-life
where the filament is weakest might this be an issue.

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html#dc

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.
 
"Sam Goldwasser" <sam@saul.cis.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:6woeqglvoa.fsf@saul.cis.upenn.edu...
"Jon Shudderston" <shutters56812rt@email.net> writes:

Thanks to all for your comments. I guess I'll save the $2.?? on such a
device and use a lower wattage bulb.

As others have noted, use a compact fluorescent if the fixture can hold
it. They are about 4 times the efficiency of incandescent lamps and last
5,000 to 10,000 hours. The bulb cost is more than made up in power
savings
during the first 750 to 1,000 hours - the life of a typical incandescent.

I've been happy with the spiral CFLs from GE and their clones. I have
a dozen or so places that see a lot of use. The color is close enough
to an incandescent as not to be an issue.
Click to expand...
That's what just burned out after only 3 months! I had one of the spiral
ones. Last night, before I posted about the incandescent life extenders,
the fluorescent started flickering. Before long, it became dim. I turned
the light off and then back on, heard a burnout sound and that was the end
of the bulb. When I shake the burned out lamp, I can hear rattling inside
probably in the base assembly. So, I don't know if the bulb itself burned
out, or just something in the base. I've since replaced it with a 100 w
incandescent.

It's a shame because that's what I understood- that they were supposed to
last much longer than incandescent.

Jon



--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work.
To
contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.
Click to expand...
 
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:52:56 GMT, "Jon Shudderston"
<shutters56812rt@email.net> wrote:

"Sam Goldwasser" <sam@saul.cis.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:6woeqglvoa.fsf@saul.cis.upenn.edu...
"Jon Shudderston" <shutters56812rt@email.net> writes:

Thanks to all for your comments. I guess I'll save the $2.?? on such a
device and use a lower wattage bulb.

As others have noted, use a compact fluorescent if the fixture can hold
it. They are about 4 times the efficiency of incandescent lamps and last
5,000 to 10,000 hours. The bulb cost is more than made up in power
savings
during the first 750 to 1,000 hours - the life of a typical incandescent.

I've been happy with the spiral CFLs from GE and their clones. I have
a dozen or so places that see a lot of use. The color is close enough
to an incandescent as not to be an issue.

That's what just burned out after only 3 months! I had one of the spiral
ones. Last night, before I posted about the incandescent life extenders,
the fluorescent started flickering. Before long, it became dim. I turned
the light off and then back on, heard a burnout sound and that was the end
of the bulb. When I shake the burned out lamp, I can hear rattling inside
probably in the base assembly. So, I don't know if the bulb itself burned
out, or just something in the base. I've since replaced it with a 100 w
incandescent.

It's a shame because that's what I understood- that they were supposed to
last much longer than incandescent.

Jon
Click to expand...
The life of a CF bulb is strongly affected by how often it gets cycled
on/off. Using them on motion sensors for example will kill them
fairly quickly. The reality is that CF bulbs still pay for them
selves in energy savings even if they don't last their advertised
life.

-Chris
 
"Jon Shudderston" <shutters56812rt@email.net> writes:

"Sam Goldwasser" <sam@saul.cis.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:6woeqglvoa.fsf@saul.cis.upenn.edu...
"Jon Shudderston" <shutters56812rt@email.net> writes:

Thanks to all for your comments. I guess I'll save the $2.?? on such a
device and use a lower wattage bulb.

As others have noted, use a compact fluorescent if the fixture can hold
it. They are about 4 times the efficiency of incandescent lamps and last
5,000 to 10,000 hours. The bulb cost is more than made up in power
savings
during the first 750 to 1,000 hours - the life of a typical incandescent.

I've been happy with the spiral CFLs from GE and their clones. I have
a dozen or so places that see a lot of use. The color is close enough
to an incandescent as not to be an issue.

That's what just burned out after only 3 months! I had one of the spiral
ones. Last night, before I posted about the incandescent life extenders,
the fluorescent started flickering. Before long, it became dim. I turned
the light off and then back on, heard a burnout sound and that was the end
of the bulb. When I shake the burned out lamp, I can hear rattling inside
probably in the base assembly. So, I don't know if the bulb itself burned
out, or just something in the base. I've since replaced it with a 100 w
incandescent.

It's a shame because that's what I understood- that they were supposed to
last much longer than incandescent.
Click to expand...
I don't know if there is an official warranty but you should try to get
a replacement. Else, here is the circuit in mine:

http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/cflamp2.pdf

What I have found is that if the lamp doesn't start for some reason,
these things do tend to self destruct with blown transistors/MOSFETs
and a fusable resistor. However, no rattle.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.
 
chris@nospam.com writes:

The life of a CF bulb is strongly affected by how often it gets cycled
on/off. Using them on motion sensors for example will kill them
fairly quickly. The reality is that CF bulbs still pay for them
selves in energy savings even if they don't last their advertised
life.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how much this applies to CFLs. Some do preheat the filements
which greatly reduces wear on power-on.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.
 
"James Sweet" <jamessweet@hotmail.com> writes:

Well the problem is the CFL's can be hit or miss, Feit produced a bad run of
them, I had a ton of them fail and they sent me some free replacement lamps,
I found it was one capacitor that always shorted so I started repairing them
just for fun. LOA lamps are junk as well, I've had pretty good luck with TCP
though.

I've had other spiral lamps that have run reliably for years now, if the
lamp is difficult to change I suggest getting a name brand such as Philips,
they seem to hold up better, otherwise I've found the medium size spring
lamps to hold up better than the ultra compact ones. The instant start lamps
also last much better, it's counter intuitive since instant starting is
generally really hard on the cathodes but I've had a remarkable number of
the rapid start sort fail with an open cathode, apparently those spiral
tubes just aren't meant to be pre heated.
Click to expand...
One of these that I have has an obvious very high preheat current as it
glows quite brightly for an instant before the discharge strikes. It's
lasted probably a couple years now but I'm waiting for it to blow.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.
 
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:22:20 -0400, exray <dontspamme-exray@coqui.net>
wrote:

gothika wrote:


Not to disagree with Jerry but I'd always been told in the past that
lightbulbs would last longer on DC than AC.
Correct me if I'm wrong but that was what was taught in the old school
days.

In this case, although its 'DC', its still pulsating at 60 cps with only
a simple diode since there's no reservoir capacitor to sustain the
voltage between cycles. Its just that the other side of the cycle has
been chopped off.
So, if DC is better than AC from the standpoint of the tiny heat/cool
factor from AC it could in fact be WORSE with the diode gizmo since the
cooling cycle is longer.

-BM
Click to expand...
I'd been told that the ac cycling was what shortened the filament
life.
Many year ago my old man(electrical engineer)wired his repair shop
lighting circuit with DC and as I remember he seldom changed
incandescent bulbs. That was 50 years ago tho'.
For my money I go with florescent, cheaper cost and longer life.
 
We just needed to replace a bulb in an outdoor fire alarm fixture. We
had to use a long lfe incandescant because you cannot enclose a CFL
inside a housing. Lenny Stein, Barlen Electronics.

"James Sweet" <jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<K9H9c.116987$1p.1593581@attbi_s54>...
"Jon Shudderston" <shutters56812rt@email.net> wrote in message
news:5%t9c.2959$yN6.1903@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
You know the kind I'm talking about... the little circular diode that fits
between the bulb and socket- do these really extend bulb life?

Thanks,
Jon



They'll significantly extend the life of the lamp, but you lose a lot more
light output than you do electrical consumption. Back before compact
fluorescents I'd have considered using one of those devices for a very hard
to change bulb, but it's certainly not a way to save money. The cost of
electricity to run a bulb over it's lifespan exceeds the cost of the bulb
itself by at least 10 times. Long life bulbs are available as well which do
the same thing, they're a higher voltage bulb which runs cooler and less
efficiently on 120v, because of this they last longer but put out
significantly fewer lumens per watt.

These days CFL's have matured to the point where there's very little
attraction to long life incandescents.
Click to expand...
 
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 17:52:56 GMT "Jon Shudderston"
<shutters56812rt@email.net> wrote:

That's what just burned out after only 3 months! I had one of the spiral
ones. Last night, before I posted about the incandescent life extenders,
the fluorescent started flickering. Before long, it became dim. I turned
the light off and then back on, heard a burnout sound and that was the end
of the bulb. When I shake the burned out lamp, I can hear rattling inside
probably in the base assembly. So, I don't know if the bulb itself burned
out, or just something in the base. I've since replaced it with a 100 w
incandescent.
Click to expand...
One of my first CFs died like this. I took the base apart and
discovered an exploded resistor. I compared with another good CF of
the same make and replaced the resistor with a larger wattage. It's
been fine now for several years.

This was a "Lights of America." Made in China, I believe.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------
 
James Sweet wrote:
"Jon Shudderston" <shutters56812rt@email.net> wrote in message
news:5%t9c.2959$yN6.1903@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...

You know the kind I'm talking about... the little circular diode that fits
between the bulb and socket- do these really extend bulb life?

Thanks,
Jon




They'll significantly extend the life of the lamp, but you lose a lot more
light output than you do electrical consumption. Back before compact
fluorescents I'd have considered using one of those devices for a very hard
to change bulb, but it's certainly not a way to save money. The cost of
electricity to run a bulb over it's lifespan exceeds the cost of the bulb
itself by at least 10 times. Long life bulbs are available as well which do
the same thing, they're a higher voltage bulb which runs cooler and less
efficiently on 120v, because of this they last longer but put out
significantly fewer lumens per watt.

These days CFL's have matured to the point where there's very little
attraction to long life incandescents.
Click to expand...
And to ever so slightly modify the subject, if I may?

My house is full of 'em, has been for years... but I
just noticed last time I handled one that the numbers
don't add up... :)

Either Ohm's law is wrong, or the label on the
packages is :)

Take care.

Ken
 
gothika wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:22:20 -0400, exray <dontspamme-exray@coqui.net
wrote:


gothika wrote:


Not to disagree with Jerry but I'd always been told in the past that
lightbulbs would last longer on DC than AC.
Correct me if I'm wrong but that was what was taught in the old school
days.

In this case, although its 'DC', its still pulsating at 60 cps with only
a simple diode since there's no reservoir capacitor to sustain the
voltage between cycles. Its just that the other side of the cycle has
been chopped off.
So, if DC is better than AC from the standpoint of the tiny heat/cool
factor from AC it could in fact be WORSE with the diode gizmo since the
cooling cycle is longer.

-BM


I'd been told that the ac cycling was what shortened the filament
life.
Many year ago my old man(electrical engineer)wired his repair shop
lighting circuit with DC and as I remember he seldom changed
incandescent bulbs. That was 50 years ago tho'.
For my money I go with florescent, cheaper cost and longer life.
Click to expand...
I suspect the cycling is a factor in the design of a light bulb but I
question how much of a factor it is to the end user. The filament would
actually have to 'cool' slightly between cycles for it to make any
difference and I have no idea if it does/doesn't. The diode gizmo
doesn't eliminate that.
If your OM went thru the effort of rewiring the shop for DC lighting I
would bet he also reduced the voltage accordingly which would do the
most good for longevity.
Ya know those 130 volt chinese bulbs? I tried some of those at one time
and never had one burn out, at least not in a 2-3 year span when I was
replacing plain old 120 volt bulbs every few months. What I did have
was bulbs that darkened and had be be changed for that reason and cheap
metal bases that corroded and stuck in the socket and/or broke loose
from the glass. Not a good deal. But they didn't burn out!

-BM
 
Ken Weitzel <kweitzel@shaw.ca> writes:

James Sweet wrote:

They'll significantly extend the life of the lamp, but you lose a
lot more
light output than you do electrical consumption. Back before compact
fluorescents I'd have considered using one of those devices for a very hard
to change bulb, but it's certainly not a way to save money. The cost of
electricity to run a bulb over it's lifespan exceeds the cost of the bulb
itself by at least 10 times. Long life bulbs are available as well which do
the same thing, they're a higher voltage bulb which runs cooler and less
efficiently on 120v, because of this they last longer but put out
significantly fewer lumens per watt.
These days CFL's have matured to the point where there's very little
attraction to long life incandescents.

And to ever so slightly modify the subject, if I may?

My house is full of 'em, has been for years... but I
just noticed last time I handled one that the numbers
don't add up... :)
Either Ohm's law is wrong, or the label on the packages is :)
Click to expand...
What are you referring to? CFLs? It's because the input is AC and
the power factor is significantly less than 1.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Back
Top