Li-ion UPS battery substitution in UPS...

[Bert Hickman]

Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about
their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be
extremely expensive.

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 11:43:44 AM UTC-4, Bert Hickman wrote:

Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about
their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be
extremely expensive.

I\'ve seen the charging methods indicated as being similar, constant current, constant voltage, then a topping charge. But lithium ion batteries do not tolerate a float charge. Even if this wasn\'t an issue, the details of current and voltage will not be the same. I would not expect the lithium batteries to live very long being charged as lead acid.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ed Lee]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 8:43:44 AM UTC-7, Bert Hickman wrote:

Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about
their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be
extremely expensive.

I added some Li cells to my dying LA battery. Yes, there is LA in EV. However, i have to be careful not to over-charge it for extended period of time. I disconnect it during extended usage, when the LA can handle the load. Unlike LA, Li does not like to be fully charged.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

tirsdag den 18. oktober 2022 kl. 17.43.44 UTC+2 skrev Bert Hickman:

Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about
their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be
extremely expensive.

might look at LiFe4 instead, afaik you can get LiFe4 car batteries so they must be reasonably compatible

LiFe4 should also be bit safer the Li-ion

 

[Ed Lee]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 9:05:08 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:

tirsdag den 18. oktober 2022 kl. 17.43.44 UTC+2 skrev Bert Hickman:
Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about
their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be
extremely expensive.
might look at LiFe4 instead, afaik you can get LiFe4 car batteries so they must be reasonably compatible

LiFe4 should also be bit safer the Li-ion

Yes, i use 4S (3.2V x 4) LiFePO4 and 3S (3.7V x 3) LiPo.

 

[Ed Lee]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 9:11:53 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 9:05:08 AM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
tirsdag den 18. oktober 2022 kl. 17.43.44 UTC+2 skrev Bert Hickman:
Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about
their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be
extremely expensive.
might look at LiFe4 instead, afaik you can get LiFe4 car batteries so they must be reasonably compatible

LiFe4 should also be bit safer the Li-ion
Yes, i use 4S (3.2V x 4) LiFePO4 and 3S (3.7V x 3) LiPo.

BTW, i am using some old 12V module based on the TI BQ20Z95 and some new one based on BQ20Z65. Half of the BQ20Z95 doesn\'t work or cut-off at low 11V. BQ20Z65 works better, but still cut-off at around 11.5V or sometimes lower, even with all new cells.

For emergency, i put 32 to 34 of them in series to run at 400V.

 

[a a]

On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 18:05:08 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:

tirsdag den 18. oktober 2022 kl. 17.43.44 UTC+2 skrev Bert Hickman:
Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about
their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be
extremely expensive.
might look at LiFe4 instead, afaik you can get LiFe4 car batteries so they must be reasonably compatible

LiFe4 should also be bit safer the Li-ion
LiFe4 car batteries is old fake promoted by traders, which has never worked fine.

LiFe4 is still Li-ion battery and should be avoided to not risk fire in your car.

My friend offered me 80 used LiFe4 90Ah car batteries from his electric car, affected by pillow syndrome
but I rejected to not risk my home demolished one day.

 

[Ed Lee]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 10:23:47 AM UTC-7, a a wrote:

On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 18:05:08 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
tirsdag den 18. oktober 2022 kl. 17.43.44 UTC+2 skrev Bert Hickman:
Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about
their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be
extremely expensive.
might look at LiFe4 instead, afaik you can get LiFe4 car batteries so they must be reasonably compatible

LiFe4 should also be bit safer the Li-ion
LiFe4 car batteries is old fake promoted by traders, which has never worked fine.

LiFe4 is still Li-ion battery and should be avoided to not risk fire in your car.

Yes, you need good BMS and manual disconnect.

My friend offered me 80 used LiFe4 90Ah car batteries from his electric car, affected by pillow syndrome
but I rejected to not risk my home demolished one day.

Tell him to put it on ebay and give me a link here. I might get them if the price is right.

 

[a a]

On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 19:28:12 UTC+2, Ed Lee wrote:

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 10:23:47 AM UTC-7, a a wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 18:05:08 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
tirsdag den 18. oktober 2022 kl. 17.43.44 UTC+2 skrev Bert Hickman:
Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about
their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be
extremely expensive.
might look at LiFe4 instead, afaik you can get LiFe4 car batteries so they must be reasonably compatible

LiFe4 should also be bit safer the Li-ion
LiFe4 car batteries is old fake promoted by traders, which has never worked fine.

LiFe4 is still Li-ion battery and should be avoided to not risk fire in your car.
Yes, you need good BMS and manual disconnect.
My friend offered me 80 used LiFe4 90Ah car batteries from his electric car, affected by pillow syndrome
but I rejected to not risk my home demolished one day.
Tell him to put it on ebay and give me a link here. I might get them if the price is right.

Better turn your electric car into mobile 100 kWh UPS

 

[Ed Lee]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 10:53:36 AM UTC-7, a a wrote:

On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 19:28:12 UTC+2, Ed Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 10:23:47 AM UTC-7, a a wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 18:05:08 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
tirsdag den 18. oktober 2022 kl. 17.43.44 UTC+2 skrev Bert Hickman:
Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about
their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be
extremely expensive.
might look at LiFe4 instead, afaik you can get LiFe4 car batteries so they must be reasonably compatible

LiFe4 should also be bit safer the Li-ion
LiFe4 car batteries is old fake promoted by traders, which has never worked fine.

LiFe4 is still Li-ion battery and should be avoided to not risk fire in your car.
Yes, you need good BMS and manual disconnect.
My friend offered me 80 used LiFe4 90Ah car batteries from his electric car, affected by pillow syndrome
but I rejected to not risk my home demolished one day.
Tell him to put it on ebay and give me a link here. I might get them if the price is right.
Better turn your electric car into mobile 100 kWh UPS

Mine is essentially Li UPS. LA is too heavy.

 

[Ed Lee]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 11:01:32 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 10:53:36 AM UTC-7, a a wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 19:28:12 UTC+2, Ed Lee wrote:
On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 10:23:47 AM UTC-7, a a wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 18:05:08 UTC+2, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
tirsdag den 18. oktober 2022 kl. 17.43.44 UTC+2 skrev Bert Hickman:
Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about
their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be
extremely expensive.
might look at LiFe4 instead, afaik you can get LiFe4 car batteries so they must be reasonably compatible

LiFe4 should also be bit safer the Li-ion
LiFe4 car batteries is old fake promoted by traders, which has never worked fine.

LiFe4 is still Li-ion battery and should be avoided to not risk fire in your car.
Yes, you need good BMS and manual disconnect.
My friend offered me 80 used LiFe4 90Ah car batteries from his electric car, affected by pillow syndrome
but I rejected to not risk my home demolished one day.
Tell him to put it on ebay and give me a link here. I might get them if the price is right.
Better turn your electric car into mobile 100 kWh UPS
Mine is essentially Li UPS. LA is too heavy.

BTW, my 12V to 400V DC/DC converter is 100% efficient.

 

[Don Y]

On 10/18/2022 8:43 AM, Bert Hickman wrote:

Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for Li-ion
equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about their
safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be extremely expensive.

I wouldn\'t trust them -- unless the UPS manufacturer had blessed them
(and dubious, even then).

If you are having problems with battery life in UPS, look to see
how it is being charged. Many \"cook\" their batteries (poor
circuit tolerances). Also, they seem intent on recharging QUICKLY
(in case another outage??) instead of trying to prolong the batteries\'
service life.

Finally, note that many places will pay you for the lead in
your old batteries. If you\'re just using 12V7.2AHr batteries,
then there\'s not much money there (~$0.20/pound). OTOH, if
you have a bigger UPS, you can get a fair bit back (I got
over $100 for the dead batteries in my biggest UPS)

 

[a a]

On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 23:10:35 UTC+2, Don Y wrote:

On 10/18/2022 8:43 AM, Bert Hickman wrote:
Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for Li-ion
equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about their
safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be extremely expensive.
I wouldn\'t trust them -- unless the UPS manufacturer had blessed them
(and dubious, even then).

If you are having problems with battery life in UPS, look to see
how it is being charged. Many \"cook\" their batteries (poor
circuit tolerances). Also, they seem intent on recharging QUICKLY
(in case another outage??) instead of trying to prolong the batteries\'
service life.

Finally, note that many places will pay you for the lead in
your old batteries. If you\'re just using 12V7.2AHr batteries,
then there\'s not much money there (~$0.20/pound). OTOH, if
you have a bigger UPS, you can get a fair bit back (I got
over $100 for the dead batteries in my biggest UPS)

Never recycle used UPS gel batteries
since installed to operate in serial string, can crash if a single gel battery crashes,
so the rest can still be fit for home use.

The same works for laptop batteries
2P 3S Battery crashes but you can still recover 2 or 4 pieces if not left uncharged for a long time

 

[Robert Roland]

On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:25 -0500, Bert Hickman
<bert@capturedlightning.com> wrote:

Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

Why would you want to? There are several parameters to consider.

Li batteries age quite fast if kept at full charge. Lead-Acid
batteries last the longest when kept at full charge.

LA\'s biggest disadvantages, compared to Li, is that they are heavy and
large. For a UPS, those disadvantages are normally not important.

LA is simply the best choice for standby applications such as UPS,
emergency ligting and similar.
--
RoRo

 

[a a]

On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 11:03:37 UTC+2, Robert Roland wrote:

On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:25 -0500, Bert Hickman
be...@capturedlightning.com> wrote:

Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?
Why would you want to? There are several parameters to consider.

Li batteries age quite fast if kept at full charge. Lead-Acid
batteries last the longest when kept at full charge.

LA\'s biggest disadvantages, compared to Li, is that they are heavy and
large. For a UPS, those disadvantages are normally not important.

LA is simply the best choice for standby applications such as UPS,
emergency ligting and similar.
--
RoRo

wrong
in your car you use exactly: lead-acid batteries
but you don\'t use car lead-acid batteries in UPS
since in UPS you use Gel batteries

 

[John Walliker]

On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 10:52:37 UTC+1, a a wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 11:03:37 UTC+2, Robert Roland wrote:
On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:25 -0500, Bert Hickman
be...@capturedlightning.com> wrote:

Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?
Why would you want to? There are several parameters to consider.

Li batteries age quite fast if kept at full charge. Lead-Acid
batteries last the longest when kept at full charge.

LA\'s biggest disadvantages, compared to Li, is that they are heavy and
large. For a UPS, those disadvantages are normally not important.

LA is simply the best choice for standby applications such as UPS,
emergency ligting and similar.
--
RoRo
wrong
in your car you use exactly: lead-acid batteries
but you don\'t use car lead-acid batteries in UPS
since in UPS you use Gel batteries

But those gel batteries ARE lead acid! They just have the gel
to hold the acid in place along with catalysts to aid
recombination of evolved gas.
Some car batteries are gel or glass mat types.
However, LiFePO4 batteries do seem to avoid most of the problems
of original Li ion batteries. Tesla are now using them in most of
their cars. Ford and VW are planning to do the same.
John

 

[a a]

On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 12:01:40 UTC+2, John Walliker wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 10:52:37 UTC+1, a a wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 11:03:37 UTC+2, Robert Roland wrote:
On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:25 -0500, Bert Hickman
be...@capturedlightning.com> wrote:

Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?
Why would you want to? There are several parameters to consider.

Li batteries age quite fast if kept at full charge. Lead-Acid
batteries last the longest when kept at full charge.

LA\'s biggest disadvantages, compared to Li, is that they are heavy and
large. For a UPS, those disadvantages are normally not important.

LA is simply the best choice for standby applications such as UPS,
emergency ligting and similar.
--
RoRo
wrong
in your car you use exactly: lead-acid batteries
but you don\'t use car lead-acid batteries in UPS
since in UPS you use Gel batteries
But those gel batteries ARE lead acid! They just have the gel
to hold the acid in place along with catalysts to aid
recombination of evolved gas.
Some car batteries are gel or glass mat types.
However, LiFePO4 batteries do seem to avoid most of the problems
of original Li ion batteries. Tesla are now using them in most of
their cars. Ford and VW are planning to do the same.
John
\"But those gel batteries ARE lead acid!

exactly, but they are not fit for your car as car battery

My friend offered me 80 used LiFePO4 batteries from his electric car made in Italy
and I simply rejected not being interested to go into problems with charging them individually at home for 2 months

What is safe and called electric car outdoor charging
is not exactly safe while arranged indoor, at your home.

It m ay take another 10 years to get LiFePO4 batteries to replace standard Lea-Acid car batteries.

Ideas by Elon don\'t make the world

LiFePO4 batteries are affected by pillow syndrome so not fit to be installed in tigh compartment in your car

 

[Ed Lee]

On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 3:23:59 AM UTC-7, a a wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 12:01:40 UTC+2, John Walliker wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 10:52:37 UTC+1, a a wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 October 2022 at 11:03:37 UTC+2, Robert Roland wrote:
On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:25 -0500, Bert Hickman
be...@capturedlightning.com> wrote:

Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?
Why would you want to? There are several parameters to consider.

Li batteries age quite fast if kept at full charge. Lead-Acid
batteries last the longest when kept at full charge.

LA\'s biggest disadvantages, compared to Li, is that they are heavy and
large. For a UPS, those disadvantages are normally not important.

LA is simply the best choice for standby applications such as UPS,
emergency ligting and similar.
--
RoRo
wrong
in your car you use exactly: lead-acid batteries
but you don\'t use car lead-acid batteries in UPS
since in UPS you use Gel batteries
But those gel batteries ARE lead acid! They just have the gel
to hold the acid in place along with catalysts to aid
recombination of evolved gas.
Some car batteries are gel or glass mat types.
However, LiFePO4 batteries do seem to avoid most of the problems
of original Li ion batteries. Tesla are now using them in most of
their cars. Ford and VW are planning to do the same.
John
\"But those gel batteries ARE lead acid!
exactly, but they are not fit for your car as car battery

My friend offered me 80 used LiFePO4 batteries from his electric car made in Italy
and I simply rejected not being interested to go into problems with charging them individually at home for 2 months

What is safe and called electric car outdoor charging
is not exactly safe while arranged indoor, at your home.

It m ay take another 10 years to get LiFePO4 batteries to replace standard Lea-Acid car batteries.

Ideas by Elon don\'t make the world

LiFePO4 batteries are affected by pillow syndrome so not fit to be installed in tigh compartment in your car

Good BMSs stop over-charging and under-discharging. Good EVs don\'t have pillows.

 

[legg]

On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 10:43:25 -0500, Bert Hickman
<bert@capturedlightning.com> wrote:

Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for
Li-ion equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about
their safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be
extremely expensive.

Go for LiFePO4 (lithium iron), but only if the firmware is
updated to allow for proper charge termination and voltage
settings.

A capacitive balancing circuit is a good idea.

RL

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 5:10:35 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

On 10/18/2022 8:43 AM, Bert Hickman wrote:
Does anyone have any experience swapping out old lead-acid batteries for Li-ion
equivalents in a UPS?

I see these batteries advertised as replacements, but I\'m concerned about their
safety in this application. New Li-ion UPS systems seem to be extremely expensive.
I wouldn\'t trust them -- unless the UPS manufacturer had blessed them
(and dubious, even then).

If you are having problems with battery life in UPS, look to see
how it is being charged. Many \"cook\" their batteries (poor
circuit tolerances). Also, they seem intent on recharging QUICKLY
(in case another outage??) instead of trying to prolong the batteries\'
service life.

Finally, note that many places will pay you for the lead in
your old batteries. If you\'re just using 12V7.2AHr batteries,
then there\'s not much money there (~$0.20/pound). OTOH, if
you have a bigger UPS, you can get a fair bit back (I got
over $100 for the dead batteries in my biggest UPS)

Do you really think the modern lithium battery is just a dumb collection of cells. The products going after the SLA market almost certainly have built-in BMS ( battery management system) that cuts off the charging current when fully charged. And that BMS is probably made by Analog Devices. Last time I looked the charge management cuts off the float mode charge current when it has fallen to 25% or so of the initial Ipk delivered to the uncharged battery. And there\'s a sensitivity of 100:1 state of charge to the temperature dependent open terminal voltage, so the process requires great precision.. Nonetheless, it\'s simple to very reliably put the lithium into the SLA charge circuit- within reason.