LED in hermetic envelope?...

[legg]

I\'m noticing dollar store 120V LED lamps in
hermetic glass bulbs. Emitter assemblies are
the yellow stick variety (two in series -
paralleled)rather than SMD plates.

Is this just employing on-hand packaging methods
or is a hermetic seal intentional for service
life? I doubt that a vacuum is employed, but
nitrogen fill might make sense.

Any electronics are still external.

This bucks general trend of plastic envelopes with
epoxy seals.

RL

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2023-04-22, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

I\'m noticing dollar store 120V LED lamps in
hermetic glass bulbs. Emitter assemblies are
the yellow stick variety (two in series -
paralleled)rather than SMD plates.

Is this just employing on-hand packaging methods
or is a hermetic seal intentional for service
life? I doubt that a vacuum is employed, but
nitrogen fill might make sense.

My speculation, a hydrogen or helium fill would give
improved cooling. I don\'t know if that\'s used or not.

--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

 

[Don Y]

On 4/22/2023 7:15 AM, legg wrote:

I\'m noticing dollar store 120V LED lamps in
hermetic glass bulbs. Emitter assemblies are
the yellow stick variety (two in series -
paralleled)rather than SMD plates.

Is this just employing on-hand packaging methods
or is a hermetic seal intentional for service
life? I doubt that a vacuum is employed, but
nitrogen fill might make sense.

Can you verify that even *that* is the case?

Can you identify the likely *real* manufacturer?
I.e., might these just be \"low end\" products that
try to exploit their existing manufacturing technology
with some \"shortcuts\" taken to reduce cost?

E.g., you can make a quality screwdriver and a shitty
screwdriver in the same factory with the same general
equipment and process flows -- but with changes in
choice of materials, quality inspections, etc.

Any electronics are still external.

This bucks general trend of plastic envelopes with
epoxy seals.

RL

 

[Chris Jones]

On 23/04/2023 12:15 am, legg wrote:

I\'m noticing dollar store 120V LED lamps in
hermetic glass bulbs. Emitter assemblies are
the yellow stick variety (two in series -
paralleled)rather than SMD plates.

Is this just employing on-hand packaging methods
or is a hermetic seal intentional for service
life? I doubt that a vacuum is employed, but
nitrogen fill might make sense.

Any electronics are still external.

This bucks general trend of plastic envelopes with
epoxy seals.

RL

Is the pumping stem sealed or just left open?
https://youtu.be/lfJKq-igxJI?t=614
https://youtu.be/f5IekLLWbyU?t=436

Recently I tried to run white LEDs in pure nitrogen in a glovebox at
work. This was very pure nitrogen, with maybe a few ppm or oxygen or
water vapour at most. The LEDs degraded quite rapidly during operation
in notrogen, and became very dim. Adding a little bit of pure oxygen
whilst they were still running restored the brightness to about normal.

I have read about white LEDs degrading in sealed luminaires in the
presence of some organic vapours (from elastomeric seals etc.) but at
least in my case, it seems that the lack of oxygen was important in
causing or enabling the degradation.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 10:13:40 AM UTC-4, legg wrote:

I\'m noticing dollar store 120V LED lamps in
hermetic glass bulbs. Emitter assemblies are
the yellow stick variety (two in series -
paralleled)rather than SMD plates.

Is this just employing on-hand packaging methods
or is a hermetic seal intentional for service
life? I doubt that a vacuum is employed, but
nitrogen fill might make sense.

Increased light output at less elevated temperature and increased lifetime. Looks like helium has 4-5 x thermal conductivity of air.

background info anyway:

Optimization of Helium Inflating on Heat Dissipation and Luminescence Properties of the A60 LED Filament Lamps

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijp/2019/6292036/

Any electronics are still external.

This bucks general trend of plastic envelopes with
epoxy seals.

RL

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 8:00:48 PM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2023-04-22, legg <le...@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
I\'m noticing dollar store 120V LED lamps in
hermetic glass bulbs. Emitter assemblies are
the yellow stick variety (two in series -
paralleled)rather than SMD plates.

Is this just employing on-hand packaging methods
or is a hermetic seal intentional for service
life? I doubt that a vacuum is employed, but
nitrogen fill might make sense.
My speculation, a hydrogen or helium fill would give
improved cooling. I don\'t know if that\'s used or not.

Hydrogen is not going to happen, mainly because it would kick in all kinds of safety regulations and inspections during manufacture, that helium would not. There are probably more regulations governing the storage of large quantities of finished product containing hydrogen. Hydrogen has about 20% greater thermal conductivity, but it\'s not worth the added expense.

--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

 

[legg]

On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 21:12:48 +1000, Chris Jones
<lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:

On 23/04/2023 12:15 am, legg wrote:
I\'m noticing dollar store 120V LED lamps in
hermetic glass bulbs. Emitter assemblies are
the yellow stick variety (two in series -
paralleled)rather than SMD plates.

Is this just employing on-hand packaging methods
or is a hermetic seal intentional for service
life? I doubt that a vacuum is employed, but
nitrogen fill might make sense.

Any electronics are still external.

This bucks general trend of plastic envelopes with
epoxy seals.

RL



Is the pumping stem sealed or just left open?
https://youtu.be/lfJKq-igxJI?t=614
https://youtu.be/f5IekLLWbyU?t=436

Recently I tried to run white LEDs in pure nitrogen in a glovebox at
work. This was very pure nitrogen, with maybe a few ppm or oxygen or
water vapour at most. The LEDs degraded quite rapidly during operation
in notrogen, and became very dim. Adding a little bit of pure oxygen
whilst they were still running restored the brightness to about normal.

I have read about white LEDs degrading in sealed luminaires in the
presence of some organic vapours (from elastomeric seals etc.) but at
least in my case, it seems that the lack of oxygen was important in
causing or enabling the degradation.

The nipple was sealed.

Suggesting that oxygen is needed seems odd.

Oxygen and nitrogen have roughly the same thermal
properties, but oxygen seems to be involved in just
about every aging process. Helium and hydrogen have
about 6x better thermal conductivity.

RL

 

[legg]

On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 05:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 10:13:40?AM UTC-4, legg wrote:
I\'m noticing dollar store 120V LED lamps in
hermetic glass bulbs. Emitter assemblies are
the yellow stick variety (two in series -
paralleled)rather than SMD plates.

Is this just employing on-hand packaging methods
or is a hermetic seal intentional for service
life? I doubt that a vacuum is employed, but
nitrogen fill might make sense.

Increased light output at less elevated temperature and increased lifetime. Looks like helium has 4-5 x thermal conductivity of air.

background info anyway:

Optimization of Helium Inflating on Heat Dissipation and Luminescence Properties of the A60 LED Filament Lamps

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijp/2019/6292036/

Wish they\'d extended their graph to include 0% He.
That might have suggested the practical commercial value
of the technique.

My specimen was a smaller bulb of the same ganeral
shape, but the envelope was only 2x the height of the
edison base.

4W consumption - similar led structure but with a 15degree
twist and no spread at the base. Led strips effectively have
the same angles w/r to each other as the larger bulb, without
increased spacing of ends.

\'globe\' brand. marked A15.
300 lumens 3000K 15000hrs
Not in US commercial website.
06-3051138 bubble pack stock number
667888253029 bar code

\'not for use in ovens\'.

RL

RL

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 9:38:12 AM UTC-4, legg wrote:

On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 21:12:48 +1000, Chris Jones
lugn...@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:

On 23/04/2023 12:15 am, legg wrote:
I\'m noticing dollar store 120V LED lamps in
hermetic glass bulbs. Emitter assemblies are
the yellow stick variety (two in series -
paralleled)rather than SMD plates.

Is this just employing on-hand packaging methods
or is a hermetic seal intentional for service
life? I doubt that a vacuum is employed, but
nitrogen fill might make sense.

Any electronics are still external.

This bucks general trend of plastic envelopes with
epoxy seals.

RL



Is the pumping stem sealed or just left open?
https://youtu.be/lfJKq-igxJI?t=614
https://youtu.be/f5IekLLWbyU?t=436

Recently I tried to run white LEDs in pure nitrogen in a glovebox at
work. This was very pure nitrogen, with maybe a few ppm or oxygen or
water vapour at most. The LEDs degraded quite rapidly during operation
in notrogen, and became very dim. Adding a little bit of pure oxygen
whilst they were still running restored the brightness to about normal.

I have read about white LEDs degrading in sealed luminaires in the
presence of some organic vapours (from elastomeric seals etc.) but at
least in my case, it seems that the lack of oxygen was important in
causing or enabling the degradation.
The nipple was sealed.

Suggesting that oxygen is needed seems odd.

Oxygen and nitrogen have roughly the same thermal
properties, but oxygen seems to be involved in just
about every aging process. Helium and hydrogen have
about 6x better thermal conductivity.

Helium would be nice, but there is a finite supply and at some point, there will be limitations on how it is used. Maybe at some point in the future we will capture helium resulting from fusion reactions to provide high thermal conductivity in LED bulbs. LOL

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 2:17:22 AM UTC+10, Ricky wrote:

On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 9:38:12 AM UTC-4, legg wrote:
On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 21:12:48 +1000, Chris Jones <lugn...@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:
On 23/04/2023 12:15 am, legg wrote:

<snip>

> Helium would be nice, but there is a finite supply and at some point, there will be limitations on how it is used. Maybe at some point in the future we will capture helium resulting from fusion reactions to provide high thermal conductivity in LED bulbs. LOL

Helium-3 does seem to come only from working fission reactors - you expose Li-6 atoms to the neutron flux within the reactor, and collect the tritium that come off, and that tritium decays to He-3 with a half-life of 12,3 years. The tritium is the primary target, but the He-3 is the eventual product.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 10:11:40 AM UTC-4, legg wrote:

On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 05:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 10:13:40?AM UTC-4, legg wrote:
I\'m noticing dollar store 120V LED lamps in
hermetic glass bulbs. Emitter assemblies are
the yellow stick variety (two in series -
paralleled)rather than SMD plates.

Is this just employing on-hand packaging methods
or is a hermetic seal intentional for service
life? I doubt that a vacuum is employed, but
nitrogen fill might make sense.

Increased light output at less elevated temperature and increased lifetime. Looks like helium has 4-5 x thermal conductivity of air.

background info anyway:

Optimization of Helium Inflating on Heat Dissipation and Luminescence Properties of the A60 LED Filament Lamps

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijp/2019/6292036/

Wish they\'d extended their graph to include 0% He.
That might have suggested the practical commercial value
of the technique.

My specimen was a smaller bulb of the same ganeral
shape, but the envelope was only 2x the height of the
edison base.

4W consumption - similar led structure but with a 15degree
twist and no spread at the base. Led strips effectively have
the same angles w/r to each other as the larger bulb, without
increased spacing of ends.

\'globe\' brand. marked A15.
300 lumens 3000K 15000hrs
Not in US commercial website.
06-3051138 bubble pack stock number
667888253029 bar code

\'not for use in ovens\'.

\"Advanced cooling system provides for 25,000 hours of LED life.\"- that\'s most likely a fairly high conductivity gas fill, like helium. Air or vacuum is the absolute last thing anyone wants to use for LEDs.

https://www.earthtronics.com/product/300-lumen-a15-led-fan-small-globe-e26/

Heat removal is problematic in all the designs imitating an incandescent filament.

RL

RL

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 1:15:31 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 2:17:22 AM UTC+10, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 9:38:12 AM UTC-4, legg wrote:
On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 21:12:48 +1000, Chris Jones <lugn...@spam.yahoo.com> wrote:
On 23/04/2023 12:15 am, legg wrote:
snip
Helium would be nice, but there is a finite supply and at some point, there will be limitations on how it is used. Maybe at some point in the future we will capture helium resulting from fusion reactions to provide high thermal conductivity in LED bulbs. LOL
Helium-3 does seem to come only from working fission reactors - you expose Li-6 atoms to the neutron flux within the reactor, and collect the tritium that come off, and that tritium decays to He-3 with a half-life of 12,3 years. The tritium is the primary target, but the He-3 is the eventual product.

https://newatlas.com/helium-source-natural-gas-fields/39038/

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 1:34:06 AM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 1:15:31 AM UTC-4, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 2:17:22 AM UTC+10, Ricky wrote:
On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 9:38:12 AM UTC-4, legg wrote:
On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 21:12:48 +1000, Chris Jones <lugn...@spam.yahoo..com> wrote:
On 23/04/2023 12:15 am, legg wrote:
snip
Helium would be nice, but there is a finite supply and at some point, there will be limitations on how it is used. Maybe at some point in the future we will capture helium resulting from fusion reactions to provide high thermal conductivity in LED bulbs. LOL

Helium-3 does seem to come only from working fission reactors - you expose Li-6 atoms to the neutron flux within the reactor, and collect the tritium that come off, and that tritium decays to He-3 with a half-life of 12,3 years. The tritium is the primary target, but the He-3 is the eventual product.

https://newatlas.com/helium-source-natural-gas-fields/39038/ \\

Dimwit. The joke was in the contrast between getting He-4 out of fusion reactors in some hypothetical future, and getting He-3 out of fission reactors now.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Clive Arthur]

On 24/04/2023 16:28, Fred Bloggs wrote:

<snip>

\"Advanced cooling system provides for 25,000 hours of LED life.\"- that\'s most likely a fairly high conductivity gas fill, like helium. Air or vacuum is the absolute last thing anyone wants to use for LEDs.

https://www.earthtronics.com/product/300-lumen-a15-led-fan-small-globe-e26/

Heat removal is problematic in all the designs imitating an incandescent filament.

Is liquid feasible? I mean, fill the globe with liquid instead of gas.
Just don\'t drop it.

--
Cheers
Clive

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:20:06 AM UTC+10, Clive Arthur wrote:

On 24/04/2023 16:28, Fred Bloggs wrote:

snip

\"Advanced cooling system provides for 25,000 hours of LED life.\"- that\'s most likely a fairly high conductivity gas fill, like helium. Air or vacuum is the absolute last thing anyone wants to use for LEDs.

https://www.earthtronics.com/product/300-lumen-a15-led-fan-small-globe-e26/

Heat removal is problematic in all the designs imitating an incandescent filament.

Is liquid feasible? I mean, fill the globe with liquid instead of gas.
Just don\'t drop it.

Don\'t completely fill it either. Differential expansion can be a swine. The heat capacity of a liquid filling would be higher, but it wouldn\'t convect as fast as a gas, and it\'s still only moving heat from the light source to the surface of the light bulb, and you are still relying on free air convection to cool the bulb as a whole.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2023-04-25 11:19, Clive Arthur wrote:

On 24/04/2023 16:28, Fred Bloggs wrote:

snip

\"Advanced cooling system provides for 25,000 hours of LED life.\"-
that\'s most likely a fairly high conductivity gas fill, like helium.
Air or vacuum is the absolute last thing anyone wants to use for LEDs.

https://www.earthtronics.com/product/300-lumen-a15-led-fan-small-globe-e26/


Heat removal is problematic in all the designs imitating an
incandescent filament.


Is liquid feasible?  I mean, fill the globe with liquid instead of gas.
Just don\'t drop it.

Sure, you can do a lot of cooling with drilling mud, for instance.
(As you know)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 08:03:10 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-04-25 11:19, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 24/04/2023 16:28, Fred Bloggs wrote:

snip

\"Advanced cooling system provides for 25,000 hours of LED life.\"-
that\'s most likely a fairly high conductivity gas fill, like helium.
Air or vacuum is the absolute last thing anyone wants to use for LEDs.

https://www.earthtronics.com/product/300-lumen-a15-led-fan-small-globe-e26/


Heat removal is problematic in all the designs imitating an
incandescent filament.


Is liquid feasible?  I mean, fill the globe with liquid instead of gas.
Just don\'t drop it.


Sure, you can do a lot of cooling with drilling mud, for instance.
(As you know)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Weren\'t there some light bulbs filled with krypton or xenon or
something? And iodine.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 12:46:08 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 08:03:10 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 2023-04-25 11:19, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 24/04/2023 16:28, Fred Bloggs wrote:

<snip>

> Weren\'t there some light bulbs filled with krypton or xenon or something? And iodine.

Tungsten-halogen incandescent lamps

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halogen_lamp

Iodine and bromine both work, diluted by an inert gas - like krypton on xenon.

The tungsten that gets evaporated off the filament turns into tungsten iodide or bromide, which circulates in the inert gas until it gets close to the hot filament, where it decomposes, dumping the tungsten back on the filament. You could run the filament a bit hotter, and still get a decent filament life.

There was an inner silica bulb, which ran hot enough that the tungsten halide didn\'t condense on it\'s inner surface.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Joe Gwinn]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:45:49 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 08:03:10 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-04-25 11:19, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 24/04/2023 16:28, Fred Bloggs wrote:

snip

\"Advanced cooling system provides for 25,000 hours of LED life.\"-
that\'s most likely a fairly high conductivity gas fill, like helium.
Air or vacuum is the absolute last thing anyone wants to use for LEDs.

https://www.earthtronics.com/product/300-lumen-a15-led-fan-small-globe-e26/


Heat removal is problematic in all the designs imitating an
incandescent filament.


Is liquid feasible?  I mean, fill the globe with liquid instead of gas.
Just don\'t drop it.


Sure, you can do a lot of cooling with drilling mud, for instance.
(As you know)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Weren\'t there some light bulbs filled with krypton or xenon or
something? And iodine.

Quartz Halogen.

Joe Gwinn

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2023-04-26 10:45, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 08:03:10 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2023-04-25 11:19, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 24/04/2023 16:28, Fred Bloggs wrote:

snip

\"Advanced cooling system provides for 25,000 hours of LED life.\"-
that\'s most likely a fairly high conductivity gas fill, like helium.
Air or vacuum is the absolute last thing anyone wants to use for LEDs.

https://www.earthtronics.com/product/300-lumen-a15-led-fan-small-globe-e26/


Heat removal is problematic in all the designs imitating an
incandescent filament.


Is liquid feasible?  I mean, fill the globe with liquid instead of gas.
Just don\'t drop it.


Sure, you can do a lot of cooling with drilling mud, for instance.
(As you know)


Weren\'t there some light bulbs filled with krypton or xenon or
something? And iodine.

Usually argon--it\'s cheaper. Xenon makes a nice bright white arc, of
course. Krypton is way too red-looking, iirc.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com