Lead vs Lithium batteries - Large scale energy storage

[Adrian]

In recent times, lithium based grid scale batteries have been getting a
lot of attention.
It seems like lead battery technology doesn’t get its fair share of
attention. Especially in Australia where we have the required resources
and industry for the whole product lifecycle.
When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the benefits of
Lithium break down when compared to good'ol lead acid technology.

 

[Phil Allison]

Adrian wrote:
..

In recent times, lithium based grid scale batteries have been getting a
lot of attention.
It seems like lead battery technology doesn’t get its fair share of
attention. Especially in Australia where we have the required resources
and industry for the whole product lifecycle.
When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the benefits of
Lithium break down when compared to good'ol lead acid technology.

** This Aussie idea makes Pb based batteries work better:

https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/portal/news/australian-company-puts-new-spin-lead-acid-batteries


...... Phil

 

[Pete]

Adrian wrote:

When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the
benefits of Lithium break down when compared to good'ol
lead acid technology.

You can make just about any argument when you focus on a single aspect.

For example, plain old wood is better by at least an order of magnitude
over *any* battery technology, when focusing only on energy density.
And better by two orders of magnitude over lead acid batteries.

Peter

 

[Phil Allison]

Pete wrote:

Adrian wrote:

When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the
benefits of Lithium break down when compared to good'ol
lead acid technology.

You can make just about any argument when you focus on a single aspect.

For example, plain old wood is better by at least an order of magnitude
over *any* battery technology, when focusing only on energy density.
And better by two orders of magnitude over lead acid batteries.

** What a fucking absurd post.

Takes up a fallacious & hostile position uses false logic and totally ignores the context.

Wot is this puke's next trick gonna be ?

Prove the earth is flat ?



..... Phil

 

[Lucifer Morningstar]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 16:49:39 +1000, Pete <pjetson@yahoo.com> wrote:

Adrian wrote:

When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the
benefits of Lithium break down when compared to good'ol
lead acid technology.

You can make just about any argument when you focus on a single aspect.

For example, plain old wood is better by at least an order of magnitude
over *any* battery technology, when focusing only on energy density.
And better by two orders of magnitude over lead acid batteries.

The Dreamliner uses a large lithium battery.

>Peter

 

[Chris Jones]

On 26/04/2017 16:49, Pete wrote:

Adrian wrote:

When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the
benefits of Lithium break down when compared to good'ol
lead acid technology.

You can make just about any argument when you focus on a single aspect.

For example, plain old wood is better by at least an order of magnitude
over *any* battery technology, when focusing only on energy density. And
better by two orders of magnitude over lead acid batteries.

Peter

The energy density of lithium batteries is also pretty high if they
catch fire.

 

[~misfit~]

Once upon a time on usenet Chris Jones wrote:

On 26/04/2017 16:49, Pete wrote:
Adrian wrote:

When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the
benefits of Lithium break down when compared to good'ol
lead acid technology.

You can make just about any argument when you focus on a single
aspect. For example, plain old wood is better by at least an order of
magnitude over *any* battery technology, when focusing only on
energy density. And better by two orders of magnitude over lead acid
batteries.

The energy density of lithium batteries is also pretty high if they
catch fire.

?

Surely it's lower than before it caught fire?

Surely it wasn't supposed to be a joke?
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

 

[Adrian]

Pete wrote:

Adrian wrote:

When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the
benefits of Lithium break down when compared to good'ol
lead acid technology.

You can make just about any argument when you focus on a single aspect.

What? This statement doesn't align with the quoted text.
For example, plain old wood is better by at least an order of magnitude
over *any* battery technology, when focusing only on energy density. And
better by two orders of magnitude over lead acid batteries.

This is completely absurd! Wood makes for a bloody awful battery! Every
body knows this! Plain, old, new or exotic wood, it makes no difference
at all. Good grief!

Peter

 

[Chris Jones]

On 26/04/2017 20:18, ~misfit~ wrote:

Once upon a time on usenet Chris Jones wrote:
On 26/04/2017 16:49, Pete wrote:
Adrian wrote:

When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the
benefits of Lithium break down when compared to good'ol
lead acid technology.

You can make just about any argument when you focus on a single
aspect. For example, plain old wood is better by at least an order of
magnitude over *any* battery technology, when focusing only on
energy density. And better by two orders of magnitude over lead acid
batteries.

The energy density of lithium batteries is also pretty high if they
catch fire.

?

Surely it's lower than before it caught fire?

The previous poster suggested that burning wood would release an order
of magnitude more energy than can be stored in the same mass/volume? of
batteries. This may or may not be true - I haven't checked. In any case
it is not a fair comparison, unless you are also allowed to burn the
batteries.

 

[Adrian]

Phil Allison wrote:

Adrian wrote:
.


In recent times, lithium based grid scale batteries have been getting a
lot of attention.
It seems like lead battery technology doesn’t get its fair share of
attention. Especially in Australia where we have the required resources
and industry for the whole product lifecycle.
When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the benefits of
Lithium break down when compared to good'ol lead acid technology.


** This Aussie idea makes Pb based batteries work better:

https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/portal/news/australian-company-puts-new-spin-lead-acid-batteries


..... Phil

That’s a great article, too bad it’s an Australian innovation, may have
been successful elsewhere.
The biggest proponents of grid battery storage (in Australia at least),
are the same as proponents of renewable energy, specifically wind and
solar. (Looking at S.A.)
It is therefore, arguable that sustainability is one of their top concerns.
Lithium batteries fall flat on their face compared to lead acid for
sustainability.
Why are these proponents so vocal about lithium grid storage? But I
never hear anyone advocating for lead? Not in the media, and not in
renewable energy circles.

 

[Phil Allison]

Adrian wrote:

Phil Allison wrote:
Adrian wrote:



In recent times, lithium based grid scale batteries have been getting a
lot of attention.
It seems like lead battery technology doesn’t get its fair share of
attention. Especially in Australia where we have the required resources
and industry for the whole product lifecycle.
When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the benefits of
Lithium break down when compared to good'ol lead acid technology.


** This Aussie idea makes Pb based batteries work better:

https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/portal/news/australian-company-puts-new-spin-lead-acid-batteries




That’s a great article, too bad it’s an Australian innovation, may have
been successful elsewhere.

** You mean that it may struggle for lack of industry funding ?

The biggest proponents of grid battery storage (in Australia at least),
are the same as proponents of renewable energy, specifically wind and
solar. (Looking at S.A.)
It is therefore, arguable that sustainability is one of their top concerns.
Lithium batteries fall flat on their face compared to lead acid for
sustainability.
Why are these proponents so vocal about lithium grid storage? But I
never hear anyone advocating for lead? Not in the media, and not in
renewable energy circles.

** So you are saying that Pb based storage cells have a very high recyclable component compared to lithium ?

Same lead, goes round and round, decade after decade kind of thing.

Nice if you made that fact more plain.



...... Phil

 

[~misfit~]

Once upon a time on usenet Chris Jones wrote:

On 26/04/2017 20:18, ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Chris Jones wrote:
On 26/04/2017 16:49, Pete wrote:
Adrian wrote:

When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the
benefits of Lithium break down when compared to good'ol
lead acid technology.

You can make just about any argument when you focus on a single
aspect. For example, plain old wood is better by at least an order
of magnitude over *any* battery technology, when focusing only on
energy density. And better by two orders of magnitude over lead
acid batteries.

The energy density of lithium batteries is also pretty high if they
catch fire.

?

Surely it's lower than before it caught fire?
The previous poster suggested that burning wood would release an order
of magnitude more energy than can be stored in the same mass/volume?
of batteries. This may or may not be true - I haven't checked. In any
case it is not a fair comparison, unless you are also allowed to burn
the batteries.

How do you recharge wood after you've burnt it? Surely that's the better
response?
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

 

[Adrian]

Phil Allison wrote:

** So you are saying that Pb based storage cells have a very high recyclable component compared to lithium ?

Same lead, goes round and round, decade after decade kind of thing.

Nice if you made that fact more plain.

Agreed.
Lead does go round and round.

The point is the public debate is broken.

Renewables often aren't compared on a level playing field to other
energy sources.

I wound't say wind and solar are "emmissions free" on a lifecycle basis
especially when you bolt on a battery.

Add a lithium battery to a PV farm and I wouldn't even call it
sustainable energy. Not cost effective or environmentally friendly (The
eco-warriors would be shocked to learn).

 

[Trevor Wilson]

On 25/04/2017 3:50 PM, Adrian wrote:

In recent times, lithium based grid scale batteries have been getting a
lot of attention.
It seems like lead battery technology doesn’t get its fair share of
attention. Especially in Australia where we have the required resources
and industry for the whole product lifecycle.
When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the benefits of
Lithium break down when compared to good'ol lead acid technology.

**Lithium batteries are likely to be an interim step. Aluminium
batteries look far more interesting and are much safer than lithium,
higher energy density than Pb and significantly lower mass:

http://news.stanford.edu/2017/02/07/stanford-engineers-create-low-cost-battery-storing-renewable-energy/

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Chris]

On 27/04/2017 8:32 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:

On 25/04/2017 3:50 PM, Adrian wrote:
In recent times, lithium based grid scale batteries have been getting a
lot of attention.
It seems like lead battery technology doesn’t get its fair share of
attention. Especially in Australia where we have the required resources
and industry for the whole product lifecycle.
When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the benefits of
Lithium break down when compared to good'ol lead acid technology.

**Lithium batteries are likely to be an interim step. Aluminium
batteries look far more interesting and are much safer than lithium,
higher energy density than Pb and significantly lower mass:

http://news.stanford.edu/2017/02/07/stanford-engineers-create-low-cost-battery-storing-renewable-energy/

For grid backup/storage, mass only contributes to the cost when
transporting the batteries to the site (likely a negligible proportion
given the overall life cycle).

Energy density is, however, a different story!
--
Cheers,

Chris.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

On 27/04/2017 12:15 PM, Chris wrote:

On 27/04/2017 8:32 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 25/04/2017 3:50 PM, Adrian wrote:
In recent times, lithium based grid scale batteries have been getting a
lot of attention.
It seems like lead battery technology doesn’t get its fair share of
attention. Especially in Australia where we have the required resources
and industry for the whole product lifecycle.
When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the benefits of
Lithium break down when compared to good'ol lead acid technology.

**Lithium batteries are likely to be an interim step. Aluminium
batteries look far more interesting and are much safer than lithium,
higher energy density than Pb and significantly lower mass:

http://news.stanford.edu/2017/02/07/stanford-engineers-create-low-cost-battery-storing-renewable-energy/


For grid backup/storage, mass only contributes to the cost when
transporting the batteries to the site (likely a negligible proportion
given the overall life cycle).

Energy density is, however, a different story!

**And cost, and the number of charge/discharge cycles and the ability to
accept a rapid charge. In these areas, aluminium batteries hold a great
deal of promise. Far moreso than Pb and Li batteries.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2017-04-27, Chris <c@b.a> wrote:

On 27/04/2017 8:32 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 25/04/2017 3:50 PM, Adrian wrote:
In recent times, lithium based grid scale batteries have been getting a
lot of attention.
It seems like lead battery technology doesn’t get its fair share of
attention. Especially in Australia where we have the required resources
and industry for the whole product lifecycle.
When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the benefits of
Lithium break down when compared to good'ol lead acid technology.

**Lithium batteries are likely to be an interim step. Aluminium
batteries look far more interesting and are much safer than lithium,
higher energy density than Pb and significantly lower mass:

http://news.stanford.edu/2017/02/07/stanford-engineers-create-low-cost-battery-storing-renewable-energy/


For grid backup/storage, mass only contributes to the cost when
transporting the batteries to the site (likely a negligible proportion
given the overall life cycle).

Energy density is, however, a different story!

seems it'd be easier to have 10 floors of lithium batteries than 10
floors of lead acid



--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software

 

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Trevor Wilson <trevor@spamblockrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

On 25/04/2017 3:50 PM, Adrian wrote:
In recent times, lithium based grid scale batteries have been getting a
lot of attention.
It seems like lead battery technology doesn?t get its fair share of
attention. Especially in Australia where we have the required resources
and industry for the whole product lifecycle.
When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the benefits of
Lithium break down when compared to good'ol lead acid technology.

**Lithium batteries are likely to be an interim step. Aluminium
batteries look far more interesting and are much safer than lithium,
higher energy density than Pb and significantly lower mass:

http://news.stanford.edu/2017/02/07/stanford-engineers-create-low-cost-battery-storing-renewable-energy/

The history of battery technology is full of different pathways
that could have been taken, and little indication (except maybe
to chemical engineers) of which ones would lead to success.

I think it's best to just consider what's already available.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

 

[Trevor Wilson]

On 28/04/2017 8:27 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

Trevor Wilson <trevor@spamblockrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
On 25/04/2017 3:50 PM, Adrian wrote:
In recent times, lithium based grid scale batteries have been getting a
lot of attention.
It seems like lead battery technology doesn?t get its fair share of
attention. Especially in Australia where we have the required resources
and industry for the whole product lifecycle.
When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the benefits of
Lithium break down when compared to good'ol lead acid technology.

**Lithium batteries are likely to be an interim step. Aluminium
batteries look far more interesting and are much safer than lithium,
higher energy density than Pb and significantly lower mass:

http://news.stanford.edu/2017/02/07/stanford-engineers-create-low-cost-battery-storing-renewable-energy/

The history of battery technology is full of different pathways
that could have been taken, and little indication (except maybe
to chemical engineers) of which ones would lead to success.

I think it's best to just consider what's already available.

**If we did that, then Li batteries would not be under consideration.
Aluminium battery technology is very, very promising. Even Pb battery
technology is under constant development.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Trevor Wilson <trevor@spamblockrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

On 28/04/2017 8:27 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Trevor Wilson <trevor@spamblockrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
On 25/04/2017 3:50 PM, Adrian wrote:
In recent times, lithium based grid scale batteries have been getting a
lot of attention.
It seems like lead battery technology doesn?t get its fair share of
attention. Especially in Australia where we have the required resources
and industry for the whole product lifecycle.
When talking about large, stationary batteries, many of the benefits of
Lithium break down when compared to good'ol lead acid technology.

**Lithium batteries are likely to be an interim step. Aluminium
batteries look far more interesting and are much safer than lithium,
higher energy density than Pb and significantly lower mass:

http://news.stanford.edu/2017/02/07/stanford-engineers-create-low-cost-battery-storing-renewable-energy/

The history of battery technology is full of different pathways
that could have been taken, and little indication (except maybe
to chemical engineers) of which ones would lead to success.

I think it's best to just consider what's already available.


**If we did that, then Li batteries would not be under consideration.
Aluminium battery technology is very, very promising. Even Pb battery
technology is under constant development.

Your link says that commercial versions of those Aluminium batteries are
still being developed. Lithium and Lead based batteries have been around
for decades (over a century in the latter case) as practical commercial
offerings, they're what I consider already available.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#