L.E.D. question..again

[Palmer]

I'm going to connect 4 L.E.D.'s to a 12 volt source. Each LED is 2.1 volts
at 20mA. I know that I need to connect them in series right? So I would have
the positive wire to the first LED and then the negative side of the LED
number 1 to the positive side of LED number 2 and so on and then the
negative source wire to the negative side of LED number four. Oh yea ... a
180 Ohm resistor between the positive wire and the first LED. Is this
correct? And if my source is a car...which puts out more than 12 volts....is
a 200 to 220 Ohm resistor ok to use?
Thanks for the help...
My be simple for you but I'm trying to learn
Screamn1

 

[Don Klipstein]

In article <41C10A69.3909294D@rica.net>, John Popelish wrote:

Palmer wrote:

I'm going to connect 4 L.E.D.'s to a 12 volt source. Each LED is 2.1 volts
at 20mA. I know that I need to connect them in series right? So I would have
the positive wire to the first LED and then the negative side of the LED
number 1 to the positive side of LED number 2 and so on and then the
negative source wire to the negative side of LED number four. Oh yea ... a
180 Ohm resistor between the positive wire and the first LED. Is this
correct? And if my source is a car...which puts out more than 12 volts....is
a 200 to 220 Ohm resistor ok to use?
Thanks for the help...
My be simple for you but I'm trying to learn
Screamn1

The typical drop of 4 LEDs in series at something near rated current
is 4*2.1=8.4 volts. A car produces something like 13.8 volts when the
engine is running, so that means you have 13.8-8.4=5.4 volts to burn
in the current setting resistor.
You want to keep the current below 20 ma for long life, so the minimum
resistance would be 5.4/.02=270 ohms. Twice this resistance will
produce a just noticeable drop in brightness.

With the 180 ohms proposed by Palmer, the current at 13.8 volts can be
30 mA (more likely a little less since the LED voltage drop will be
slightly higher than at the usual 20 mA).
Most LEDs have maximum current rating of 30 mA even if their
characteristics are specified at 20 mA.
But at 30 mA, do not expect 100,000 hour life expectancy unless thermal
conditions are especially favorable - both leads of the LED should have a
temperature not exceeding about 70 degrees C near the case even if you
stay within the ratings. Having 100,000 hours of life with light output
staying above 1/2 the "brand-new" amount often requires keeping the
junction at a temperature not exceeding 85 degrees C.
White LEDs have it much worse due to phosphor wear - skimp on current as
much as you can if you need the kind of life expectancy many expect from
LEDs.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Palmer" <palmerhudson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2l7wd.916$yK.563@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...

I'm going to connect 4 L.E.D.'s to a 12 volt source. Each LED is 2.1
volts
at 20mA. I know that I need to connect them in series right? So I
would have
the positive wire to the first LED and then the negative side of the
LED
number 1 to the positive side of LED number 2 and so on and then the
negative source wire to the negative side of LED number four. Oh yea
.... a
180 Ohm resistor between the positive wire and the first LED. Is this
correct? And if my source is a car...which puts out more than 12
volts....is
a 200 to 220 Ohm resistor ok to use?

Best to use a 220 ohm resistor, since the car battery voltage can go up
to more than 14 volts when charging. But doing the calculations with a
battery voltage of 14.8V, it should be more like 330 ohms.

Thanks for the help...
My be simple for you but I'm trying to learn
Screamn1

 

[John Popelish]

Palmer wrote:

I'm going to connect 4 L.E.D.'s to a 12 volt source. Each LED is 2.1 volts
at 20mA. I know that I need to connect them in series right? So I would have
the positive wire to the first LED and then the negative side of the LED
number 1 to the positive side of LED number 2 and so on and then the
negative source wire to the negative side of LED number four. Oh yea ... a
180 Ohm resistor between the positive wire and the first LED. Is this
correct? And if my source is a car...which puts out more than 12 volts....is
a 200 to 220 Ohm resistor ok to use?
Thanks for the help...
My be simple for you but I'm trying to learn
Screamn1

The typical drop of 4 LEDs in series at something near rated current
is 4*2.1=8.4 volts. A car produces something like 13.8 volts when the
engine is running, so that means you have 13.8-8.4=5.4 volts to burn
in the current setting resistor.
You want to keep the current below 20 ma for long life, so the minimum
resistance would be 5.4/.02=270 ohms. Twice this resistance will
produce a just noticeable drop in brightness.

--
John Popelish

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Don Klipstein" <don@manx.misty.com> wrote in message
news:slrncs7n5j.qkg.don@manx.misty.com...

In article <41C10A69.3909294D@rica.net>, John Popelish wrote:
Palmer wrote:

I'm going to connect 4 L.E.D.'s to a 12 volt source. Each LED is
2.1 volts
at 20mA. I know that I need to connect them in series right? So I
would have
the positive wire to the first LED and then the negative side of
the LED
number 1 to the positive side of LED number 2 and so on and then
the
negative source wire to the negative side of LED number four. Oh
yea ... a
180 Ohm resistor between the positive wire and the first LED. Is
this
correct? And if my source is a car...which puts out more than 12
volts....is
a 200 to 220 Ohm resistor ok to use?
Thanks for the help...
My be simple for you but I'm trying to learn
Screamn1

The typical drop of 4 LEDs in series at something near rated current
is 4*2.1=8.4 volts. A car produces something like 13.8 volts when
the
engine is running, so that means you have 13.8-8.4=5.4 volts to burn
in the current setting resistor.
You want to keep the current below 20 ma for long life, so the
minimum
resistance would be 5.4/.02=270 ohms. Twice this resistance will
produce a just noticeable drop in brightness.

With the 180 ohms proposed by Palmer, the current at 13.8 volts can
be
30 mA (more likely a little less since the LED voltage drop will be
slightly higher than at the usual 20 mA).
Most LEDs have maximum current rating of 30 mA even if their
characteristics are specified at 20 mA.
But at 30 mA, do not expect 100,000 hour life expectancy unless
thermal
conditions are especially favorable - both leads of the LED should
have a
temperature not exceeding about 70 degrees C near the case even if you
stay within the ratings. Having 100,000 hours of life with light
output
staying above 1/2 the "brand-new" amount often requires keeping the
junction at a temperature not exceeding 85 degrees C.
White LEDs have it much worse due to phosphor wear - skimp on
current as
much as you can if you need the kind of life expectancy many expect
from
LEDs.

Wow, that's a new term for me, Don. "Phosphor wear".

I'm still running the four white LEDs in series, 24/7, since july 11,
which is over 5 months. There are two Nichia NSPW510 white LEDs, which
have been on since even earlier, and two Hong Kong LEDs, all in series
and running at 20 mA. So far, the Nichias haven't dimmed much, but the
HK LEDs are down to less than 1/4 brightness, I can't really say how
much because I'm only making this by calibrated eyeball. ;-) That's
over 3600 hours, getting close to 4000 hours by next week. Whatever
this factor is, it's taking its toll on the HK LEDs. It was much worse
at 25 to 30 mA. The HK LEDs lasted only a few months, and then they
were really dim.

Makes a believer out of me when you talk about the lead temp and such,
junction temp of 85 deg, etc. These four LEDs are close together, but I
don't think they have ever been warmer than 40 or so degrees C, so I
don't think excessively hi should be a factor. I think that Nichia uses
some kind of phosphor that's more resistant to degradation over time,
and the HK LEDs are just cheap.

I'll keep updating as time goes on, and as they dim into nothingness. I
may decide to scrap the HK LEDs and put new ones on right after new
year's eve, just to start out the new year with a 'fresh start'. ;-)

> - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

 

[John Popelish]

"Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\"" wrote:

Wow, that's a new term for me, Don. "Phosphor wear".

I'm still running the four white LEDs in series, 24/7, since july 11,
which is over 5 months. There are two Nichia NSPW510 white LEDs, which
have been on since even earlier, and two Hong Kong LEDs, all in series
and running at 20 mA. So far, the Nichias haven't dimmed much, but the
HK LEDs are down to less than 1/4 brightness, I can't really say how
much because I'm only making this by calibrated eyeball. ;-) That's
over 3600 hours, getting close to 4000 hours by next week. Whatever
this factor is, it's taking its toll on the HK LEDs. It was much worse
at 25 to 30 mA. The HK LEDs lasted only a few months, and then they
were really dim.

Makes a believer out of me when you talk about the lead temp and such,
junction temp of 85 deg, etc. These four LEDs are close together, but I
don't think they have ever been warmer than 40 or so degrees C, so I
don't think excessively hi should be a factor. I think that Nichia uses
some kind of phosphor that's more resistant to degradation over time,
and the HK LEDs are just cheap.

I'll keep updating as time goes on, and as they dim into nothingness. I
may decide to scrap the HK LEDs and put new ones on right after new
year's eve, just to start out the new year with a 'fresh start'. ;-)

I would like ot see something more quantitative if you are going to go
through all that trouble, anyway. If you connect a milliamp meter
directly across a silicon photo diode, you get a pretty linear
representation of the total light that falls on the diode. A large
area diode placed directly in front of the LED captures a goodly
fraction of its output in a fairly repeatable way. Once you have a
few months data, you may be able to curve fit it to an exponential and
state the decay rate as a time constant.

This photo diode is a few bucks from Digikey:
http://www.photonicdetectors.com/pdf/pdbc140.pdf

--
John Popelish

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:41C49C0A.A51D5B17@rica.net...

"Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\"" wrote:

Wow, that's a new term for me, Don. "Phosphor wear".

I'm still running the four white LEDs in series, 24/7, since july
11,
which is over 5 months. There are two Nichia NSPW510 white LEDs,
which
have been on since even earlier, and two Hong Kong LEDs, all in
series
and running at 20 mA. So far, the Nichias haven't dimmed much, but
the
HK LEDs are down to less than 1/4 brightness, I can't really say how
much because I'm only making this by calibrated eyeball. ;-)
That's
over 3600 hours, getting close to 4000 hours by next week. Whatever
this factor is, it's taking its toll on the HK LEDs. It was much
worse
at 25 to 30 mA. The HK LEDs lasted only a few months, and then they
were really dim.

Makes a believer out of me when you talk about the lead temp and
such,
junction temp of 85 deg, etc. These four LEDs are close together,
but I
don't think they have ever been warmer than 40 or so degrees C, so I
don't think excessively hi should be a factor. I think that Nichia
uses
some kind of phosphor that's more resistant to degradation over
time,
and the HK LEDs are just cheap.

I'll keep updating as time goes on, and as they dim into
nothingness. I
may decide to scrap the HK LEDs and put new ones on right after new
year's eve, just to start out the new year with a 'fresh start'.
;-)

I would like ot see something more quantitative if you are going to go
through all that trouble, anyway. If you connect a milliamp meter
directly across a silicon photo diode, you get a pretty linear

Well, in the case of the URL you quoted below, that would'nt work
because that photodiode is photoconductive, not photovoltaic. I had two
lightmeters, a Weston and a GE, but even with the neckstrap, they got
banged up to where they don't work anymore. I poked a hole in the end
of a cardboard box and mounted a PV cell on the other end, but it wasnt'
very sensitive because the distance was too great, maybe 8 inches
(20cm). And as I moved the LED slightly in the hole, it changed
readings. And I found that the milliammeter wasn't low enough V drop,
too. So I wasn't satisfied with the stability and calibration of that
setup.

representation of the total light that falls on the diode. A large
area diode placed directly in front of the LED captures a goodly
fraction of its output in a fairly repeatable way. Once you have a
few months data, you may be able to curve fit it to an exponential and
state the decay rate as a time constant.

As for the HK LEDs, to paraphrase Dr. McCoy on Startrek TOS, "They're
dead, John." I think that's a good enough estimation.

This photo diode is a few bucks from Digikey:
http://www.photonicdetectors.com/pdf/pdbc140.pdf

--
John Popelish

 

[John Popelish]

"Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\"" wrote:

"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:41C49C0A.A51D5B17@rica.net...

I would like ot see something more quantitative if you are going to go
through all that trouble, anyway. If you connect a milliamp meter
directly across a silicon photo diode, you get a pretty linear

Well, in the case of the URL you quoted below, that would'nt work
because that photodiode is photoconductive, not photovoltaic.

That means that it is optimized to give a current output (linear
indication of intensity) instead of a forward biased voltage output
(logarithmic indication of intensity). Shorting it with a meter is
very close to what you get with a reverse bias. Add a 9 volt battery
for reverse bias, if you like, and see how little it affects the
result.

I had two
lightmeters, a Weston and a GE, but even with the neckstrap, they got
banged up to where they don't work anymore. I poked a hole in the end
of a cardboard box and mounted a PV cell on the other end, but it wasnt'
very sensitive because the distance was too great, maybe 8 inches
(20cm). And as I moved the LED slightly in the hole, it changed
readings. And I found that the milliammeter wasn't low enough V drop,
too. So I wasn't satisfied with the stability and calibration of that
setup.

If you like, I could send you a nice big one (10 mm square). I have
measured the output of LEDs many times with them.

--
John Popelish

 

[Geir Klemetsen]

"Palmer" <palmerhudson@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
news:2l7wd.916$yK.563@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...

I'm going to connect 4 L.E.D.'s to a 12 volt source. Each LED is 2.1 volts
at 20mA. I know that I need to connect them in series right? So I would
have
the positive wire to the first LED and then the negative side of the LED
number 1 to the positive side of LED number 2 and so on and then the
negative source wire to the negative side of LED number four. Oh yea ... a
180 Ohm resistor between the positive wire and the first LED. Is this
correct? And if my source is a car...which puts out more than 12
volts....is
a 200 to 220 Ohm resistor ok to use?
Thanks for the help...
My be simple for you but I'm trying to learn
Screamn1

I would use a constant current generator. It's easy to build:


+Ucc

o o Current source
| |
.-. |
| | |
| | |
'-' |
| |/
o---------|
| |>
| |
| |
\| |
|---------o
<| |
| |
| .-.
| | |
| | | R
| '-'
| |
| |
| |
=== ===
GND GND
(created by AACircuit v1.28 beta 10/06/04 www.tech-chat.de)


The current this circuit draw, is about the same as through R, and the
voltage over R is about 0.6V, so for 20mA, the value of R should be 0.6/0.02
= 30 ohms.