It worked !!!

My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes to
my bathroom sink run down inside one of the deep corrugations. The
bathroom walls are covered in drywall which in turn is covered with
thin sheets of vinyl covered Masonite.
I insulated the pipes before covering them with the drywall. I
then put insulation down inside the corrugations to insulate the
walls. But I think some rodents got into the insulation. Whatever
happened when the temp drops below about 30 degrees the bathroom pipes
will freeze.
I am not eager to tear into the wall to find the problem. So I
leave the taps slightly dripping when the weather gets too cold. I now
have a little water heater under the sink so that the main water
heater is off most of the time. I turn off the under sink heater when
the tap is dripping.
So my system works except when I forget to leave the water
dripping. And I did that yesterday. Coming in to work this morning I
discovered the frozen pipe problem. Besides the hassle of no water one
day the pipes are going to burst and then I WILL need to tear into the
wall.
But maybe I have hit on a solution. The water pipes going into the
main water heater are connected to each other with a heavy copper wire
just before the heater connections. This is to comply with the
building code.
So I figured if I connected some power to the pipes right at the
wall stops I could maybe get them to heat up enough to thaw them. I
measured the resistance from stop to stop and it was 4 ohms. The stops
are plumbed to the sink taps with plastic pipe so I know the
resistance I measured was through the supply pipes.
So I plugged in a Variac, plugged my battery charger into the
Variac, and connected the battery charger leads to the wall stops.
Then I dialed up the voltage until the charger was putting out about
18 amps. Checking about an hour later I see water is now flowing from
the taps.
So now I need to wire up a transformer controlled by a thermostat
to keep those in wall pipes warm. No more dripping taps!
Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?
Thanks,
Eric

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 14:55:53 -0800, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes to
my bathroom sink run down inside one of the deep corrugations. The
bathroom walls are covered in drywall which in turn is covered with
thin sheets of vinyl covered Masonite.
I insulated the pipes before covering them with the drywall. I
then put insulation down inside the corrugations to insulate the
walls. But I think some rodents got into the insulation. Whatever
happened when the temp drops below about 30 degrees the bathroom pipes
will freeze.
I am not eager to tear into the wall to find the problem. So I
leave the taps slightly dripping when the weather gets too cold. I now
have a little water heater under the sink so that the main water
heater is off most of the time. I turn off the under sink heater when
the tap is dripping.
So my system works except when I forget to leave the water
dripping. And I did that yesterday. Coming in to work this morning I
discovered the frozen pipe problem. Besides the hassle of no water one
day the pipes are going to burst and then I WILL need to tear into the
wall.
But maybe I have hit on a solution. The water pipes going into the
main water heater are connected to each other with a heavy copper wire
just before the heater connections. This is to comply with the
building code.
So I figured if I connected some power to the pipes right at the
wall stops I could maybe get them to heat up enough to thaw them. I
measured the resistance from stop to stop and it was 4 ohms. The stops
are plumbed to the sink taps with plastic pipe so I know the
resistance I measured was through the supply pipes.
So I plugged in a Variac, plugged my battery charger into the
Variac, and connected the battery charger leads to the wall stops.
Then I dialed up the voltage until the charger was putting out about
18 amps. Checking about an hour later I see water is now flowing from
the taps.
So now I need to wire up a transformer controlled by a thermostat
to keep those in wall pipes warm. No more dripping taps!
Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?
Thanks,
Eric

Are you in Massa2shits ?>:-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

It's what you learn, after you know it all, that counts.

 

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:00:39 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 14:55:53 -0800, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes to
my bathroom sink run down inside one of the deep corrugations. The
bathroom walls are covered in drywall which in turn is covered with
thin sheets of vinyl covered Masonite.
I insulated the pipes before covering them with the drywall. I
then put insulation down inside the corrugations to insulate the
walls. But I think some rodents got into the insulation. Whatever
happened when the temp drops below about 30 degrees the bathroom pipes
will freeze.
I am not eager to tear into the wall to find the problem. So I
leave the taps slightly dripping when the weather gets too cold. I now
have a little water heater under the sink so that the main water
heater is off most of the time. I turn off the under sink heater when
the tap is dripping.
So my system works except when I forget to leave the water
dripping. And I did that yesterday. Coming in to work this morning I
discovered the frozen pipe problem. Besides the hassle of no water one
day the pipes are going to burst and then I WILL need to tear into the
wall.
But maybe I have hit on a solution. The water pipes going into the
main water heater are connected to each other with a heavy copper wire
just before the heater connections. This is to comply with the
building code.
So I figured if I connected some power to the pipes right at the
wall stops I could maybe get them to heat up enough to thaw them. I
measured the resistance from stop to stop and it was 4 ohms. The stops
are plumbed to the sink taps with plastic pipe so I know the
resistance I measured was through the supply pipes.
So I plugged in a Variac, plugged my battery charger into the
Variac, and connected the battery charger leads to the wall stops.
Then I dialed up the voltage until the charger was putting out about
18 amps. Checking about an hour later I see water is now flowing from
the taps.
So now I need to wire up a transformer controlled by a thermostat
to keep those in wall pipes warm. No more dripping taps!
Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?
Thanks,
Eric

Are you in Massa2shits ?>:-}

...Jim Thompson

Washington State. Why?
Eric

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 15:13:59 -0800, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:00:39 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 14:55:53 -0800, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes to
my bathroom sink run down inside one of the deep corrugations. The
bathroom walls are covered in drywall which in turn is covered with
thin sheets of vinyl covered Masonite.
I insulated the pipes before covering them with the drywall. I
then put insulation down inside the corrugations to insulate the
walls. But I think some rodents got into the insulation. Whatever
happened when the temp drops below about 30 degrees the bathroom pipes
will freeze.
I am not eager to tear into the wall to find the problem. So I
leave the taps slightly dripping when the weather gets too cold. I now
have a little water heater under the sink so that the main water
heater is off most of the time. I turn off the under sink heater when
the tap is dripping.
So my system works except when I forget to leave the water
dripping. And I did that yesterday. Coming in to work this morning I
discovered the frozen pipe problem. Besides the hassle of no water one
day the pipes are going to burst and then I WILL need to tear into the
wall.
But maybe I have hit on a solution. The water pipes going into the
main water heater are connected to each other with a heavy copper wire
just before the heater connections. This is to comply with the
building code.
So I figured if I connected some power to the pipes right at the
wall stops I could maybe get them to heat up enough to thaw them. I
measured the resistance from stop to stop and it was 4 ohms. The stops
are plumbed to the sink taps with plastic pipe so I know the
resistance I measured was through the supply pipes.
So I plugged in a Variac, plugged my battery charger into the
Variac, and connected the battery charger leads to the wall stops.
Then I dialed up the voltage until the charger was putting out about
18 amps. Checking about an hour later I see water is now flowing from
the taps.
So now I need to wire up a transformer controlled by a thermostat
to keep those in wall pipes warm. No more dripping taps!
Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?
Thanks,
Eric

Are you in Massa2shits ?>:-}

...Jim Thompson
Washington State. Why?
Eric

Call your local government agency in charge of building codes. Ask
them if what you want to do is legal ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

It's what you learn, after you know it all, that counts.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 15:13:59 -0800, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:00:39 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 14:55:53 -0800, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes to
my bathroom sink run down inside one of the deep corrugations. The
bathroom walls are covered in drywall which in turn is covered with
thin sheets of vinyl covered Masonite.
I insulated the pipes before covering them with the drywall. I
then put insulation down inside the corrugations to insulate the
walls. But I think some rodents got into the insulation. Whatever
happened when the temp drops below about 30 degrees the bathroom pipes
will freeze.
I am not eager to tear into the wall to find the problem. So I
leave the taps slightly dripping when the weather gets too cold. I now
have a little water heater under the sink so that the main water
heater is off most of the time. I turn off the under sink heater when
the tap is dripping.
So my system works except when I forget to leave the water
dripping. And I did that yesterday. Coming in to work this morning I
discovered the frozen pipe problem. Besides the hassle of no water one
day the pipes are going to burst and then I WILL need to tear into the
wall.
But maybe I have hit on a solution. The water pipes going into the
main water heater are connected to each other with a heavy copper wire
just before the heater connections. This is to comply with the
building code.
So I figured if I connected some power to the pipes right at the
wall stops I could maybe get them to heat up enough to thaw them. I
measured the resistance from stop to stop and it was 4 ohms. The stops
are plumbed to the sink taps with plastic pipe so I know the
resistance I measured was through the supply pipes.
So I plugged in a Variac, plugged my battery charger into the
Variac, and connected the battery charger leads to the wall stops.
Then I dialed up the voltage until the charger was putting out about
18 amps. Checking about an hour later I see water is now flowing from
the taps.
So now I need to wire up a transformer controlled by a thermostat
to keep those in wall pipes warm. No more dripping taps!
Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?
Thanks,
Eric

Are you in Massa2shits ?>:-}

...Jim Thompson
Washington State. Why?
Eric

What you want is pipe heating tape...

<https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=pipe+heating+tape&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=>


...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| STV, Queen Creek, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

It's what you learn, after you know it all, that counts.

 

[default]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 15:13:59 -0800, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:00:39 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 14:55:53 -0800, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes to
my bathroom sink run down inside one of the deep corrugations. The
bathroom walls are covered in drywall which in turn is covered with
thin sheets of vinyl covered Masonite.
I insulated the pipes before covering them with the drywall. I
then put insulation down inside the corrugations to insulate the
walls. But I think some rodents got into the insulation. Whatever
happened when the temp drops below about 30 degrees the bathroom pipes
will freeze.
I am not eager to tear into the wall to find the problem. So I
leave the taps slightly dripping when the weather gets too cold. I now
have a little water heater under the sink so that the main water
heater is off most of the time. I turn off the under sink heater when
the tap is dripping.
So my system works except when I forget to leave the water
dripping. And I did that yesterday. Coming in to work this morning I
discovered the frozen pipe problem. Besides the hassle of no water one
day the pipes are going to burst and then I WILL need to tear into the
wall.
But maybe I have hit on a solution. The water pipes going into the
main water heater are connected to each other with a heavy copper wire
just before the heater connections. This is to comply with the
building code.
So I figured if I connected some power to the pipes right at the
wall stops I could maybe get them to heat up enough to thaw them. I
measured the resistance from stop to stop and it was 4 ohms. The stops
are plumbed to the sink taps with plastic pipe so I know the
resistance I measured was through the supply pipes.
So I plugged in a Variac, plugged my battery charger into the
Variac, and connected the battery charger leads to the wall stops.
Then I dialed up the voltage until the charger was putting out about
18 amps. Checking about an hour later I see water is now flowing from
the taps.
So now I need to wire up a transformer controlled by a thermostat
to keep those in wall pipes warm. No more dripping taps!
Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?
Thanks,
Eric

Are you in Massa2shits ?>:-}

...Jim Thompson
Washington State. Why?
Eric

Had you the forethought to use heat tape that would have been the
better solution. If you can get in around the pipes where they enter
and leave the wall it may be possible to put enough tape in a spiral
around the pipe. (providing there's no clamps or insulation in the
way and not too many bends)

How about a sheet of insulation on the outside of the building and
another layer of galvanized metal?

If you're dealing with galvanized iron pipe, you can't count on the
resistance staying constant because threads rust and rust insulates.
With DC voltage you're probably going to destroy the piping with
galvanic corrosion.

It may work, but chances are it will fail and may do so
catastrophically. As a infrequent thing it may be OK but when you
start talking about thermostats etc., I'd back off and find a safer
way.

 

[Helmut Wabnig]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 14:55:53 -0800, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes to
my bathroom sink run down inside one of the deep corrugations. The
bathroom walls are covered in drywall which in turn is covered with
thin sheets of vinyl covered Masonite.
I insulated the pipes before covering them with the drywall. I
then put insulation down inside the corrugations to insulate the
walls. But I think some rodents got into the insulation. Whatever
happened when the temp drops below about 30 degrees the bathroom pipes
will freeze.
I am not eager to tear into the wall to find the problem. So I
leave the taps slightly dripping when the weather gets too cold. I now
have a little water heater under the sink so that the main water
heater is off most of the time. I turn off the under sink heater when
the tap is dripping.
So my system works except when I forget to leave the water
dripping. And I did that yesterday. Coming in to work this morning I
discovered the frozen pipe problem. Besides the hassle of no water one
day the pipes are going to burst and then I WILL need to tear into the
wall.
But maybe I have hit on a solution. The water pipes going into the
main water heater are connected to each other with a heavy copper wire
just before the heater connections. This is to comply with the
building code.
So I figured if I connected some power to the pipes right at the
wall stops I could maybe get them to heat up enough to thaw them. I
measured the resistance from stop to stop and it was 4 ohms. The stops
are plumbed to the sink taps with plastic pipe so I know the
resistance I measured was through the supply pipes.
So I plugged in a Variac, plugged my battery charger into the
Variac, and connected the battery charger leads to the wall stops.
Then I dialed up the voltage until the charger was putting out about
18 amps. Checking about an hour later I see water is now flowing from
the taps.
So now I need to wire up a transformer controlled by a thermostat
to keep those in wall pipes warm. No more dripping taps!
Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?
Thanks,
Eric

Yes they did that in the olde times
when they used metal pipes throughout.
Today we have plastic pipes.

w.

 

[amdx]

On 2/23/2018 4:55 PM, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes to
my bathroom sink run down inside one of the deep corrugations. The
bathroom walls are covered in drywall which in turn is covered with
thin sheets of vinyl covered Masonite.
I insulated the pipes before covering them with the drywall. I
then put insulation down inside the corrugations to insulate the
walls. But I think some rodents got into the insulation. Whatever
happened when the temp drops below about 30 degrees the bathroom pipes
will freeze.
I am not eager to tear into the wall to find the problem. So I
leave the taps slightly dripping when the weather gets too cold. I now
have a little water heater under the sink so that the main water
heater is off most of the time. I turn off the under sink heater when
the tap is dripping.
So my system works except when I forget to leave the water
dripping. And I did that yesterday. Coming in to work this morning I
discovered the frozen pipe problem. Besides the hassle of no water one
day the pipes are going to burst and then I WILL need to tear into the
wall.
But maybe I have hit on a solution. The water pipes going into the
main water heater are connected to each other with a heavy copper wire
just before the heater connections. This is to comply with the
building code.
So I figured if I connected some power to the pipes right at the
wall stops I could maybe get them to heat up enough to thaw them. I
measured the resistance from stop to stop and it was 4 ohms. The stops
are plumbed to the sink taps with plastic pipe so I know the
resistance I measured was through the supply pipes.
So I plugged in a Variac, plugged my battery charger into the
Variac, and connected the battery charger leads to the wall stops.
Then I dialed up the voltage until the charger was putting out about
18 amps. Checking about an hour later I see water is now flowing from
the taps.
So now I need to wire up a transformer controlled by a thermostat
to keep those in wall pipes warm. No more dripping taps!
Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?
Thanks,
Eric

At one home I had built, I put a return pipe on the kitchen sink
hot water pipe. The return went back to the bottom of the water heater.
Hot water would rise to the kitchen sink and cooler water dropped back
to the bottom of the water heater. So I always has immediate hot water
at the kitchen sink.
I don't know if you have access to connect something like that.
But it was nice while we had it. It's a little wasteful, but I suspect I
spend more dumping water down the drain waiting for hot water.

Hey, How about a small thermostatically controlled pump between the
hot and cold pipes under the sink. Pump hot water into the cold water
pipe whenever the temp is below freezing and maybe a 5 minute turn off
switch for when you want cold water but the temp is below freezing.
Would take much of a flow rate.
Mikek

 

On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:25:15 -0600, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

On 2/23/2018 4:55 PM, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:
My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes to
my bathroom sink run down inside one of the deep corrugations. The
bathroom walls are covered in drywall which in turn is covered with
thin sheets of vinyl covered Masonite.
I insulated the pipes before covering them with the drywall. I
then put insulation down inside the corrugations to insulate the
walls. But I think some rodents got into the insulation. Whatever
happened when the temp drops below about 30 degrees the bathroom pipes
will freeze.
I am not eager to tear into the wall to find the problem. So I
leave the taps slightly dripping when the weather gets too cold. I now
have a little water heater under the sink so that the main water
heater is off most of the time. I turn off the under sink heater when
the tap is dripping.
So my system works except when I forget to leave the water
dripping. And I did that yesterday. Coming in to work this morning I
discovered the frozen pipe problem. Besides the hassle of no water one
day the pipes are going to burst and then I WILL need to tear into the
wall.
But maybe I have hit on a solution. The water pipes going into the
main water heater are connected to each other with a heavy copper wire
just before the heater connections. This is to comply with the
building code.
So I figured if I connected some power to the pipes right at the
wall stops I could maybe get them to heat up enough to thaw them. I
measured the resistance from stop to stop and it was 4 ohms. The stops
are plumbed to the sink taps with plastic pipe so I know the
resistance I measured was through the supply pipes.
So I plugged in a Variac, plugged my battery charger into the
Variac, and connected the battery charger leads to the wall stops.
Then I dialed up the voltage until the charger was putting out about
18 amps. Checking about an hour later I see water is now flowing from
the taps.
So now I need to wire up a transformer controlled by a thermostat
to keep those in wall pipes warm. No more dripping taps!
Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?
Thanks,
Eric

At one home I had built, I put a return pipe on the kitchen sink
hot water pipe. The return went back to the bottom of the water heater.
Hot water would rise to the kitchen sink and cooler water dropped back
to the bottom of the water heater. So I always has immediate hot water
at the kitchen sink.
I don't know if you have access to connect something like that.
But it was nice while we had it. It's a little wasteful, but I suspect I
spend more dumping water down the drain waiting for hot water.

Hey, How about a small thermostatically controlled pump between the
hot and cold pipes under the sink. Pump hot water into the cold water
pipe whenever the temp is below freezing and maybe a 5 minute turn off
switch for when you want cold water but the temp is below freezing.
Would take much of a flow rate.
Mikek

You know Mike, reading your post reminded me of a thermostatically
valve made just for turning on the water to prevent pipes from
freezing. They start flowing water at about 34 degrees as I recall.
Anyway, I bet if I remove the wall stops, connect the valves to the
plumbing, and then reconnect the wall stops to the valves my problem
will be solved. I think the cooling pipes will cool the thermo valve
and make it work. I need to research these valves. Thanks for the
reminder.
Eric

 

" At one home I had built, I put a return pipe on the kitchen sink
hot water pipe. The return went back to the bottom of the water heater. Hot water would rise to the kitchen sink and cooler water dropped back to the bottom of the water heater. So I always has immediate hot water at the kitchen sink"

I just saw something like that on This Old House.

Old my (_|_).

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2018-02-23, etpm@whidbey.com <etpm@whidbey.com> wrote:

My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes to
my bathroom sink run down inside one of the deep corrugations. The
bathroom walls are covered in drywall which in turn is covered with
thin sheets of vinyl covered Masonite.
I insulated the pipes before covering them with the drywall. I
then put insulation down inside the corrugations to insulate the
walls. But I think some rodents got into the insulation. Whatever
happened when the temp drops below about 30 degrees the bathroom pipes
will freeze.
I am not eager to tear into the wall to find the problem. So I
leave the taps slightly dripping when the weather gets too cold. I now
have a little water heater under the sink so that the main water
heater is off most of the time. I turn off the under sink heater when
the tap is dripping.
So my system works except when I forget to leave the water
dripping. And I did that yesterday. Coming in to work this morning I
discovered the frozen pipe problem. Besides the hassle of no water one
day the pipes are going to burst and then I WILL need to tear into the
wall.
But maybe I have hit on a solution. The water pipes going into the
main water heater are connected to each other with a heavy copper wire
just before the heater connections. This is to comply with the
building code.
So I figured if I connected some power to the pipes right at the
wall stops I could maybe get them to heat up enough to thaw them. I
measured the resistance from stop to stop and it was 4 ohms. The stops
are plumbed to the sink taps with plastic pipe so I know the
resistance I measured was through the supply pipes.
So I plugged in a Variac, plugged my battery charger into the
Variac, and connected the battery charger leads to the wall stops.
Then I dialed up the voltage until the charger was putting out about
18 amps. Checking about an hour later I see water is now flowing from
the taps.
So now I need to wire up a transformer controlled by a thermostat
to keep those in wall pipes warm. No more dripping taps!
Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?

a question very well posed.

using AC to warm the pipes is probably better than using DC from a
charger (which may increase corrosion at the positive end)

18A into 4ohms is about 1300W which seems possibly excessive, fire
risk perhaps?

It's also 72V and voltages much lower than that have proven
fatal to people with wet hands - Do you think there's a risk that
someone with wet hands might come in contact with that?

--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software

 

[amdx]

On 2/24/2018 5:30 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

" At one home I had built, I put a return pipe on the kitchen sink
hot water pipe. The return went back to the bottom of the water heater. Hot water would rise to the kitchen sink and cooler water dropped back to the bottom of the water heater. So I always has immediate hot water at the kitchen sink"

I just saw something like that on This Old House.

Old my (_|_).

I did that around 1992., I don't know where I saw it,
I didn't have internet then.
Mikek