Is it possible to combine two AC power circuits to double cu

I'm in a situation where I need around 20-24 amps continous of 110V
(for a milling electric motor), but my strongest circuit in my breaker
box is 20 amps. I have 3 15 amps and 2 20 amps. Is it possible to
have the AC circuits in parallel somehow to be able to safely
(relativly) use the combined currents? What hardware would I need? Am
I concerned with the ac cycles being off in some way?

Any other ideas?

 

[Rheilly Phoull]

<mjp.metals@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1108667994.638978.7740@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I'm in a situation where I need around 20-24 amps continous of 110V
(for a milling electric motor), but my strongest circuit in my breaker
box is 20 amps. I have 3 15 amps and 2 20 amps. Is it possible to
have the AC circuits in parallel somehow to be able to safely
(relativly) use the combined currents? What hardware would I need? Am
I concerned with the ac cycles being off in some way?

Any other ideas?

All in all, taking into account the warnings from others (and me !!), it
would very likely be the most economical to have another breaker installed,
most certainly the safest. The other option of the dual volt motor could be
your saving if you have it.

--
Regards ..... Rheilly Phoull

 

[Beeper]

You can use a 220 volt circuit if your motor is set up for it. By going with
220 you cut your amps in 1/2. So instead of using 20-24 amps, you'll draw
10-12 amps.
"Kitchen Man" <nannerbac@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a8hf11t9pnf0sljf1bkd1tpjr2lmu2mkk1@4ax.com...

On 17 Feb 2005 12:02:29 -0800, mjp.metals@gmail.com wrote:

I'm in a situation where I need around 20-24 amps continous of 110V
(for a milling electric motor), but my strongest circuit in my breaker
box is 20 amps. I have 3 15 amps and 2 20 amps. Is it possible to
have the AC circuits in parallel somehow to be able to safely
(relativly) use the combined currents? What hardware would I need? Am
I concerned with the ac cycles being off in some way?

Any other ideas?

There have been a lot of interesting replies to this question, and I am
glad to see that you are accepting those that steer you in the direction
of caution. I've got some questions that, if the answers are right,
might get you going safely and easily.

You say you have three 15A and two 20A circuit breakers. That's not a
lot, what environment are you in? It doesn't sound like a typical
residence. Are you in a separately wired shop or garage? If so, and if
you have to rewire, the job could be a lot easier than in a typical
house.

You've already decided to not try to parallel two circuits. Good. Now,
if you are confident enough in your ability to not poke around with your
fingers in places where they might get burned, take the cover off your
CB panel and look at the wires. In my house, I have a 20-amp breaker
that is dedicated to the kitchen range. Since I have a gas range, that
connection doesn't require much power, and is probably why the breaker
is only a 20, instead of a 40 or 50.

The wiring, however, is big (three conductor, 8 awg), so if I ever
installed an electric range, I could put in a bigger breaker, and Bob's
your uncle. If you have a similarly wired circuit, you could do that -
replace the breaker *and* the outlet (there are particular plug
configurations for different voltage and amperage capabilities).

Failing that, you'll have to rewire one of your circuits. If you are
talking about a shed or a garage, it might be a really easy job. If
it's a long run through a house, I'd consider the professional help.
Finally, if you have 220V capability, find out if you can run your motor
on 220 and put in a 220V circuit breaker. You could have a pro do that
last job, too; it shouldn't cost that much.

--
Al Brennan

 

[Larry Brasfield]

<mjp.metals@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1108667994.638978.7740@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I'm in a situation where I need around 20-24 amps continous of 110V
(for a milling electric motor), but my strongest circuit in my breaker
box is 20 amps. I have 3 15 amps and 2 20 amps. Is it possible to
have the AC circuits in parallel somehow to be able to safely
(relativly) use the combined currents?

I am addressing only the technical aspects of your question.
Nothing I say should be taken as a recommendation that
you do this rather than getting your electrical service changed
to suit your needs in a conventional, code-conformant manner.

It would be possible to design something that would do what
you wish safely. It would have to have relays (or equivalent)
to be sure that unplugged male plugs did not have exposed
line voltage on them, either before starting paralelled operation
or in the event a plug was pulled out during operation. Such a
system would not be simple to build and would likely cost more
than having a electrician come in and do it conventionally. The
relay controller would likely require some electronics. And
the available power would not necessarily be a simple sum of
what is available from each socket unless even more cost and
complexity was added to the custom gizmo. It is likely that the
currents taken would not be well related to the breaker trip
points due to differing wire run lengths, socket resistance, and
breaker resistance.

What hardware would I need?

I have not seen such a device for sale. I suspect this is because
of the cost issue I mention above.

Am I concerned with the ac cycles being off in some way?

You'd better be. With no offense intended, I must say that
question leads me to believe you should not be devising such
a device and calling an electrician is your best bet.

Any other ideas?

A generator? It would have other uses and probably be
cheaper if your time is worth much.

--
--Larry Brasfield
email: donotspam_larry_brasfield@hotmail.com
Above views may belong only to me.

 

You'd better be. With no offense intended, I must say that
question leads me to believe you should not be devising such

a device and calling an electrician is your best bet. <

True, I have no practical knowledge of power AC systems, that is why I
am asking the question. I am sorry if that leads you to believe I have
no business this matter.

Upgrading the circuits is not what I am asking about, I know about this
option. Circumstances make this approach better for me. Also this is
indoors, so a generator would not work either.

Despite all you posted, I still don't have an answer... from what I
know from books and school, I don't know what kind of circuits and
devices you would need to (assuming you could) combine two ac sources
to form one source with (minus losses) twice the power. So any help
on this would be great.

 

[Henry Kolesnik]

First, have you tried running it on a 20? Its not a good idea to put two
20s in parallel but it'll work, its all the same phase, frequency, and
voltage.. If your wiring will handle the current put in a 25 or 30 amp
breaker and feed your mill by itself off that circuit.
<mjp.metals@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1108667994.638978.7740@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I'm in a situation where I need around 20-24 amps continous of 110V
(for a milling electric motor), but my strongest circuit in my breaker
box is 20 amps. I have 3 15 amps and 2 20 amps. Is it possible to
have the AC circuits in parallel somehow to be able to safely
(relativly) use the combined currents? What hardware would I need? Am
I concerned with the ac cycles being off in some way?

Any other ideas?

 

[Larry Brasfield]

<mjp.metals@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1108677962.923166.186340@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

You'd better be. With no offense intended, I must say that
question leads me to believe you should not be devising such
a device and calling an electrician is your best bet.

True, I have no practical knowledge of power AC systems, that is why I
am asking the question. I am sorry if that leads you to believe I have
no business this matter.

Perhaps you would take less offense if I expand on that.
Given your unfamiliarity with the electrical issues, you are
extremely unlikely to be able to design a safe device for
doing what you want. If you go ahead anyway, you or
somebody you care about could be electrocuted. If you
have to hire that expertise, the whole design and build job
will cost more than that electrician.

Upgrading the circuits is not what I am asking about, I know about this
option. Circumstances make this approach better for me.

If safety is not an issue, just wire some plugs together,
taking care to wire hot to hot, neutral to neutral, and
be sure not to plug them into any oppositely phased
outlets. This is a very dangerous solution, which I
would not use myself if I had your problem.

Also this is indoors, so a generator would not work either.

The generator would not have to be indoors.

Despite all you posted, I still don't have an answer... from what I
know from books and school, I don't know what kind of circuits and
devices you would need to (assuming you could) combine two ac sources
to form one source with (minus losses) twice the power. So any help
on this would be great.

You need relays that are well enough protected from
over-current to not get welded closed and a control circuit
to operate the relays according to the criteria that I stated
in my earlier post. If that is not an answer, then you appear
to be looking for a complete design. Most likely, to get one
you will have to pay money, and more than you would pay
to take the solution you already know of.

Good luck getting a more satisfactory answer.

--
--Larry Brasfield
email: donotspam_larry_brasfield@hotmail.com
Above views may belong only to me.

 

[John Popelish]

mjp.metals@gmail.com wrote:

I'm in a situation where I need around 20-24 amps continous of 110V
(for a milling electric motor), but my strongest circuit in my breaker
box is 20 amps. I have 3 15 amps and 2 20 amps. Is it possible to
have the AC circuits in parallel somehow to be able to safely
(relativly) use the combined currents? What hardware would I need? Am
I concerned with the ac cycles being off in some way?

Any other ideas?

In many breaker panels, alternate breakers are fed from power from
opposite sides of the 220 volt input. Paralleling two breakers that
are not fed from the same side of the line will result in possible
destruction of one of both breakers. You also do not get proportional
current sharing when two breakers are paralleled, so you do not get
the combined ratings as the effective trip point. Besides, any wiring
that is presently protected by either breaker is no longer protected
for the same trip current by the parallel combination.

I think you need to try to find a 30 amp breaker to replace one of the
ones now in the panel (preferable a spare) and wire your load to that,
following the electrical code for wiring size and practice. If your
place burns down after this, you had better hope that your insurance
company does not find out you have been doing such wiring, or they
will probably disallow your claim, regardless of whether your work was
involved in the fire. All that assumes you have not electrocuted
yourself before that.

--
John Popelish

 

[Robert Monsen]

mjp.metals@gmail.com wrote:

I'm in a situation where I need around 20-24 amps continous of 110V
(for a milling electric motor), but my strongest circuit in my breaker
box is 20 amps. I have 3 15 amps and 2 20 amps. Is it possible to
have the AC circuits in parallel somehow to be able to safely
(relativly) use the combined currents? What hardware would I need? Am
I concerned with the ac cycles being off in some way?

Any other ideas?

Get a big DC to AC converter. ($189 here: http://tinyurl.com/5njew)

Power it off of a 12V auto battery, which you keep charged with a
trickle charger off of the AC you have. If you need more time, add
batteries.

It's not going to power the milling motor all day, but it'll work for a
while, and recharge overnight.

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[Chris]

mjp.metals@gmail.com wrote:

I'm in a situation where I need around 20-24 amps continous of 110V
(for a milling electric motor), but my strongest circuit in my
breaker
box is 20 amps. I have 3 15 amps and 2 20 amps. Is it possible to
have the AC circuits in parallel somehow to be able to safely
(relativly) use the combined currents? What hardware would I need?
Am
I concerned with the ac cycles being off in some way?

Any other ideas?

Hi. Many electrical motors are made to be wired for either 120VAC or
240VAC service. If you're not interested in hiring someone to upgrade
your service, it may be easier to look at the motor and see if you can
rewire it. If the motor requires 20-24A @ 120VAC, it will only require
10-12A @ 240VAC if it is a motor of that type. Then, if you have
240VAC @ 15A or 20A service available in your work area, you can just
plug it in.

I had to do this once for a motor I needed to run in a basement. They
happened to have a 240VAC outlet available at their electric dryer, so
there was no problem.

DO NOT put AC circuits in parallel. It's not a good idea, even if you
don't accidentally short phases.

As has been mentioned in several other responses, if you don't know
what you're doing with line voltage, let someone else who does give you
a hand.

Good luck
Chris

 

After all the responses I will give in to sanity and NOT try to
parallel the AC circuit (not that I would have tried it before knowing
it was safe)

As for the the battery idea, that seems like something I may try. The
url your pointing to I think is wrong though, (I will need an inverter,
not a ac-dv converter)

The only thing that concerns me is the safety of using car batteries
inside (they need a well ventilated area I think, and there is always
some danger of rupture) since I live in an apartment. And also finding
batteries that can stand that much abuse.


So far I what I find is this that may do the trick:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47130
Qustions is now, what the heck is modified sine wave? (Just how
modified is it?) A true sine out is probably too much to ask for at
this power I guess.

 

[Rich Grise]

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:19:09 -0800, mjp.metals wrote:

After all the responses I will give in to sanity and NOT try to
parallel the AC circuit (not that I would have tried it before knowing
it was safe)

As for the the battery idea, that seems like something I may try. The
url your pointing to I think is wrong though, (I will need an inverter,
not a ac-dv converter)

The only thing that concerns me is the safety of using car batteries
inside (they need a well ventilated area I think, and there is always
some danger of rupture) since I live in an apartment. And also finding
batteries that can stand that much abuse.

Adding a battery and inverter is a really stupid idea.

Check the wire from the box to where the motor is. If it's #12 or #14,
replace it with a #10, and probalby replace the white neutral with a #10,
and replace the breaker with a 30A unit, and you're done. You can rent
a fish tape for a few bucks and pulling new wires isn't hard at all,
although could be tedious if it's a long run or has splices in the middle
somewhere. Do a good job, because if you want to sell the house, it will
have to pass inspection.

And, just for the sake of reduncancy, adding a battery and inverter is
a really stupid idea. And even if you did want to use a battery and
inverter for something else, don't use a car battery. Use a deep-cycle
marine or RV battery.

Have Fun!
Rich

 

[Robert Monsen]

Rich Grise wrote:

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:19:09 -0800, mjp.metals wrote:


After all the responses I will give in to sanity and NOT try to
parallel the AC circuit (not that I would have tried it before knowing
it was safe)

As for the the battery idea, that seems like something I may try. The
url your pointing to I think is wrong though, (I will need an inverter,
not a ac-dv converter)

The only thing that concerns me is the safety of using car batteries
inside (they need a well ventilated area I think, and there is always
some danger of rupture) since I live in an apartment. And also finding
batteries that can stand that much abuse.


Adding a battery and inverter is a really stupid idea.

Are the apostrophes in the wrong place?

Check the wire from the box to where the motor is. If it's #12 or #14,
replace it with a #10, and probalby replace the white neutral with a #10,
and replace the breaker with a 30A unit, and you're done. You can rent
a fish tape for a few bucks and pulling new wires isn't hard at all,
although could be tedious if it's a long run or has splices in the middle
somewhere. Do a good job, because if you want to sell the house, it will
have to pass inspection.

Lets tear up some walls and pull wire, without any knowledge of proper
codes. It's like your recent suggestion to replace the fuse box to add
grounding. "Just yank it out! remember where the wires go!" Who needs
electricians? (Bzzzap!) Perhaps you are a member of the Burridge school
of electrocution theory: "Nobody ever dies of electrocution, they just
move into another reality where they didn't actually die, they only came
close..."

And, just for the sake of reduncancy, adding a battery and inverter is
a really stupid idea. And even if you did want to use a battery and
inverter for something else, don't use a car battery. Use a deep-cycle
marine or RV battery.

Why exactly is it a stupid idea? Is it dangerous? Expensive? What's the
problem? Educate me. 30A inverters are relatively cheap, as are auto
batteries. Seems far safer than trying to merge two circuits. Hell, you
don't even know how often or for how long he is using the thing. If he
uses it once a month, seems like a waste of money to have his circuits
upgraded and his wiring replaced.

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[Rich Grise]

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:44:14 -0800, Robert Monsen wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:

And, just for the sake of reduncancy, adding a battery and inverter is
a really stupid idea. And even if you did want to use a battery and
inverter for something else, don't use a car battery. Use a deep-cycle
marine or RV battery.

Why exactly is it a stupid idea? Is it dangerous? Expensive? What's the
problem? Educate me.

It's an unnecessary expenditure, and comes with all the pains in the
ass concomitant with battery power.

30A inverters are relatively cheap, as are auto
batteries. Seems far safer than trying to merge two circuits.

Merging two circuits is also stupid. And saying "use a car battery", I'm
sorry to report, is also not a good idea, even if he _was_ foolish enough
to want to use a battery and inverter for a mill motor.

Hell, you
don't even know how often or for how long he is using the thing. If he
uses it once a month, seems like a waste of money to have his circuits
upgraded and his wiring replaced.

You didn't read the whole post. I said, if it's #12 or thinner, replace
it with #10. #12 would probably hold up, but you want a safety margin.
The reason for codes is that house fires are very expensive all the way
around.

Heck, he could just run it the way it is, or get a breaker that's designed
for a motor load and it'd work fine!

I _don't_ want him to burn his house down or electrocute himself, contrary
to what you seem to have surmised here.

And I _have_ replaced a circuit breaker panel - the whole panel, in an
industrial setting, i.e., 240V 3-phase. And, if, as he mentioned, he has
some experience with not getting electrocuted, it's almost trivial as
far as technical competence is concerned.

On top of that, he says he wants to install a spa. He'll not only need
a new panel, but probably have to call the electric company to see if he
needs to get his service upgraded.

Thanks!
Rich

 

[Kitchen Man]

On 17 Feb 2005 12:02:29 -0800, mjp.metals@gmail.com wrote:

I'm in a situation where I need around 20-24 amps continous of 110V
(for a milling electric motor), but my strongest circuit in my breaker
box is 20 amps. I have 3 15 amps and 2 20 amps. Is it possible to
have the AC circuits in parallel somehow to be able to safely
(relativly) use the combined currents? What hardware would I need? Am
I concerned with the ac cycles being off in some way?

Any other ideas?

There have been a lot of interesting replies to this question, and I am
glad to see that you are accepting those that steer you in the direction
of caution. I've got some questions that, if the answers are right,
might get you going safely and easily.

You say you have three 15A and two 20A circuit breakers. That's not a
lot, what environment are you in? It doesn't sound like a typical
residence. Are you in a separately wired shop or garage? If so, and if
you have to rewire, the job could be a lot easier than in a typical
house.

You've already decided to not try to parallel two circuits. Good. Now,
if you are confident enough in your ability to not poke around with your
fingers in places where they might get burned, take the cover off your
CB panel and look at the wires. In my house, I have a 20-amp breaker
that is dedicated to the kitchen range. Since I have a gas range, that
connection doesn't require much power, and is probably why the breaker
is only a 20, instead of a 40 or 50.

The wiring, however, is big (three conductor, 8 awg), so if I ever
installed an electric range, I could put in a bigger breaker, and Bob's
your uncle. If you have a similarly wired circuit, you could do that -
replace the breaker *and* the outlet (there are particular plug
configurations for different voltage and amperage capabilities).

Failing that, you'll have to rewire one of your circuits. If you are
talking about a shed or a garage, it might be a really easy job. If
it's a long run through a house, I'd consider the professional help.
Finally, if you have 220V capability, find out if you can run your motor
on 220 and put in a 220V circuit breaker. You could have a pro do that
last job, too; it shouldn't cost that much.

--
Al Brennan