Intermittant Buried Cable Problem

G

Gary Lecomte

Guest
i have a Buried cable that is about 1/2 mile long. It contains 6 pairs
of #22 AWG wires wrapped in a shield and filled with gel. But some
wires are shorting out with others on occassion. And not necessarly
just pairs.

I believe I have Possible solutions to the problems below, but I would
like other opinions before giving mine.

1) How do you make these intermittant shorts, Permanent so they can be
more easily found?
2) How do you determine their location?

Digging up and/or replacing this cable is Not an option. It cost
$10,000 and is only two years old.

Any Legitmate Suggestions Appreciated.......Gary
 
In article <ca76d1a9.0405231739.69b532b8@posting.google.com>,
chemelec@hotmail.com says...
i have a Buried cable that is about 1/2 mile long. It contains 6 pairs
of #22 AWG wires wrapped in a shield and filled with gel. But some
wires are shorting out with others on occassion. And not necessarly
just pairs.

I believe I have Possible solutions to the problems below, but I would
like other opinions before giving mine.

1) How do you make these intermittant shorts, Permanent so they can be
more easily found?
Click to expand...
High-current. Maybe you'll even see the smoke. ;-)

2) How do you determine their location?
Click to expand...
Time-domain-reflectometer.

Digging up and/or replacing this cable is Not an option. It cost
$10,000 and is only two years old.
Click to expand...
A used TDR can be had for much less, and is a cool toy too. ;-)
Any Legitmate Suggestions Appreciated.......Gary
Click to expand...
A Few Legitimate Suggestions Offered.

--
Keith
 
On 23 May 2004 18:39:32 -0700, chemelec@hotmail.com (Gary Lecomte)
wrote:

i have a Buried cable that is about 1/2 mile long. It contains 6 pairs
of #22 AWG wires wrapped in a shield and filled with gel. But some
wires are shorting out with others on occassion. And not necessarly
just pairs.

I believe I have Possible solutions to the problems below, but I would
like other opinions before giving mine.

1) How do you make these intermittant shorts, Permanent so they can be
more easily found?
2) How do you determine their location?

Digging up and/or replacing this cable is Not an option. It cost
$10,000 and is only two years old.

Any Legitmate Suggestions Appreciated.......Gary
Click to expand...
The installer doesn't guarantee his work, or did YOU install it ?:)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
Did the installer, or you put in a cable that was rated for underground use?
Also, was the cable put in to a non-corrosive type of piping that is rated
for underground cable?

There are standards for these cables. If they are not met, the settling of
the ground will eventually tear or damage the cable. There is movement of
rocks, and the earth itself that has a lot of force against things. There is
also plant growth that can root around and tear a cable, and small animals
that may borough through the ground, and chew on a cable.

There are really no easy shortcuts for this. If you have an opened
connection, there are some sophisticated instruments, that can approximate
where the break is. These use the technique of sending a pulse down the
cable, and measuring the reflected open end pulse coming back. Then with
knowing the exact characteristics of the cable, some calculations can be
made to determine the approximate location of the open or break. With an
underground cable, the result would be undeterminable, because it would be
hard to predict the exact characteristics effect of the ground on the cable.
Even the moisture in the ground at the time would effect the readings.

If the cable was in a pipe, then this may be more exact and give a better
chance to analyse, because the characteristics of the pipe on the cable
would be a fixed value to work with.

I have a strong feeling you are going to have to lay in a new cable. Also,
you would be very wise to do the job properly using the proper rated piping
that is able to withstand ground and rock movement, and earth pressure.

--

Jerry G.
=====


"Gary Lecomte" <chemelec@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca76d1a9.0405231739.69b532b8@posting.google.com...
i have a Buried cable that is about 1/2 mile long. It contains 6 pairs
of #22 AWG wires wrapped in a shield and filled with gel. But some
wires are shorting out with others on occassion. And not necessarly
just pairs.

I believe I have Possible solutions to the problems below, but I would
like other opinions before giving mine.

1) How do you make these intermittant shorts, Permanent so they can be
more easily found?
2) How do you determine their location?

Digging up and/or replacing this cable is Not an option. It cost
$10,000 and is only two years old.

Any Legitmate Suggestions Appreciated.......Gary
 
"Jerry G." wrote:
Did the installer, or you put in a cable that was rated for underground use?
Also, was the cable put in to a non-corrosive type of piping that is rated
for underground cable?

There are standards for these cables. If they are not met, the settling of
the ground will eventually tear or damage the cable. There is movement of
rocks, and the earth itself that has a lot of force against things. There is
also plant growth that can root around and tear a cable, and small animals
that may borough through the ground, and chew on a cable.

There are really no easy shortcuts for this. If you have an opened
connection, there are some sophisticated instruments, that can approximate
where the break is. These use the technique of sending a pulse down the
cable, and measuring the reflected open end pulse coming back. Then with
knowing the exact characteristics of the cable, some calculations can be
made to determine the approximate location of the open or break. With an
underground cable, the result would be undeterminable, because it would be
hard to predict the exact characteristics effect of the ground on the cable.
Even the moisture in the ground at the time would effect the readings.

If the cable was in a pipe, then this may be more exact and give a better
chance to analyse, because the characteristics of the pipe on the cable
would be a fixed value to work with.

I have a strong feeling you are going to have to lay in a new cable. Also,
you would be very wise to do the job properly using the proper rated piping
that is able to withstand ground and rock movement, and earth pressure.

--

Jerry G.
=====

"Gary Lecomte" <chemelec@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca76d1a9.0405231739.69b532b8@posting.google.com...
i have a Buried cable that is about 1/2 mile long. It contains 6 pairs
of #22 AWG wires wrapped in a shield and filled with gel. But some
wires are shorting out with others on occassion. And not necessarly
just pairs.

I believe I have Possible solutions to the problems below, but I would
like other opinions before giving mine.

1) How do you make these intermittant shorts, Permanent so they can be
more easily found?
2) How do you determine their location?

Digging up and/or replacing this cable is Not an option. It cost
$10,000 and is only two years old.

Any Legitmate Suggestions Appreciated.......Gary
Click to expand...
....and use a pipe larger than the cable, all bend radii about 10 times
cable diameter (or more), to make it easy to pull cable for replacement.
 
"Gary Lecomte" <chemelec@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca76d1a9.0405231739.69b532b8@posting.google.com...
i have a Buried cable that is about 1/2 mile long. It contains 6 pairs
of #22 AWG wires wrapped in a shield and filled with gel. But some
wires are shorting out with others on occassion. And not necessarly
just pairs.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you could fit some kind of data multiplexer at each end and use just
a few pairs - swap them around until you find a reliable set.
 
"Gary Lecomte" <chemelec@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca76d1a9.0405231739.69b532b8@posting.google.com...
i have a Buried cable that is about 1/2 mile long. It contains 6 pairs
of #22 AWG wires wrapped in a shield and filled with gel. But some
wires are shorting out with others on occassion. And not necessarly
just pairs.

I believe I have Possible solutions to the problems below, but I would
like other opinions before giving mine.

1) How do you make these intermittant shorts, Permanent so they can be
more easily found?
2) How do you determine their location?

Digging up and/or replacing this cable is Not an option. It cost
$10,000 and is only two years old.

Any Legitmate Suggestions Appreciated.......Gary
Click to expand...
At that cost I assume it is proper stuff so my first thought would be where
did they joint it at install and dig there.

If there are no joints then you have to wonder if fixing it is sensible
becasue it obvioulsy isn't up to the job so even if you isolate the problem
and cure it I would have thought that there is a fair possibility of it
going wrong again.

Out and return on half a mile will be about 5 us so put a pulse into a good
pair that is shorted at the far end, put the same pulse into a shorted pair
and the external trigger of an oscilloscope put the two traces of the
oscilloscope on the two return wires you will receive two pulses that are
time seperated from the trigger and each other in proportion to the distance
from the source to the short. In theory :).
 
"Gary Lecomte" <chemelec@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca76d1a9.0405231739.69b532b8@posting.google.com...
i have a Buried cable that is about 1/2 mile long. It contains 6 pairs
of #22 AWG wires wrapped in a shield and filled with gel. But some
wires are shorting out with others on occassion. And not necessarly
just pairs.

I believe I have Possible solutions to the problems below, but I would
like other opinions before giving mine.

1) How do you make these intermittant shorts, Permanent so they can be
more easily found?
2) How do you determine their location?

Digging up and/or replacing this cable is Not an option. It cost
$10,000 and is only two years old.

Any Legitmate Suggestions Appreciated.......Gary
Click to expand...

Before getting too carried away with fancy test equipment or not so fancy
shovels, keep in mind that the vast majority of cabling problems occur at
the very ends or someplace where extra hardware is attached (such as T's and
the like). Typically the ends of the cable are easy to access, so before
doing anything else I would (at the very least) inspect the end connections
to make sure they are not the cause of your problems.
 
Thanks to the Honest Answers so far.
To Further Answer your questions, as well as my idea:

1) This was a Direct Bury, Except where it comes out of the ground,
where they used a 2" conduit at the ends to better protect it. Not
Sure how long these are,
going into the ground.

2)It was installed by a Professional Electrical Contractor and a good
layer of sand was laid down first, followed with the cable and than a
Foot more sand on top. I Extremely Doubt any rocks have damaged the
cable.

3)There are no trees close to this cable, and this is in a Very Dry
part of the Country. This is a Mountain Area with Very hard, Stable
base under this cable.

4) I have a "Sencore", LC102 capacitor Inductor Analyzer. And
according to the manual, if these shorts were not intermittant, I
could determine the location of these shorts with an Inductance test.
Unfortunately you need a 25 foot piece of cable to get a reference
Inductance Value. And the town sent back all the Extra cable. Damm.

In my inital tests, I used an Ohm Meter, but was coming up with
Varying Readings because of probable Contact Resistance at the point
of the short. So I than introduced a 1 Amp, Constant Current Source.
Measuring the voltage at the entry point and calculating the
resistance verses the resistance of the wire, divided by two Because
its a Round Trip, I determined one short to be 7 feet from the end.
Repeated tests that day concured this. However a month later, that
short No Longer Existed! I believe this must Temperature Related,
causing Small Amounts of Contraction and Expansion.
In all Probability I would think all these shorts are at the same
point, But I need to Confirm it before digging this up.

My New Plan is to use a 150 volts or 300 volt @ 100 mA Current Limited
supply.
In hopes of Arcing and Fusing these bad spots. Maybe also a Cap to
Give a High Current Burst of power but Hopefully, not enough to damage
the other wires.

Does This sound Reasonable?

Thanks.....Gary



Robert Baer <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<40B1937E.83AAFC33@earthlink.net>...
"Jerry G." wrote:

Did the installer, or you put in a cable that was rated for underground use?
Also, was the cable put in to a non-corrosive type of piping that is rated
for underground cable?

There are standards for these cables. If they are not met, the settling of
the ground will eventually tear or damage the cable. There is movement of
rocks, and the earth itself that has a lot of force against things. There is
also plant growth that can root around and tear a cable, and small animals
that may borough through the ground, and chew on a cable.

There are really no easy shortcuts for this. If you have an opened
connection, there are some sophisticated instruments, that can approximate
where the break is. These use the technique of sending a pulse down the
cable, and measuring the reflected open end pulse coming back. Then with
knowing the exact characteristics of the cable, some calculations can be
made to determine the approximate location of the open or break. With an
underground cable, the result would be undeterminable, because it would be
hard to predict the exact characteristics effect of the ground on the cable.
Even the moisture in the ground at the time would effect the readings.

If the cable was in a pipe, then this may be more exact and give a better
chance to analyse, because the characteristics of the pipe on the cable
would be a fixed value to work with.

I have a strong feeling you are going to have to lay in a new cable. Also,
you would be very wise to do the job properly using the proper rated piping
that is able to withstand ground and rock movement, and earth pressure.

--

Jerry G.
=====

"Gary Lecomte" <chemelec@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ca76d1a9.0405231739.69b532b8@posting.google.com...
i have a Buried cable that is about 1/2 mile long. It contains 6 pairs
of #22 AWG wires wrapped in a shield and filled with gel. But some
wires are shorting out with others on occassion. And not necessarly
just pairs.

I believe I have Possible solutions to the problems below, but I would
like other opinions before giving mine.

1) How do you make these intermittant shorts, Permanent so they can be
more easily found?
2) How do you determine their location?

Digging up and/or replacing this cable is Not an option. It cost
$10,000 and is only two years old.

Any Legitmate Suggestions Appreciated.......Gary

...and use a pipe larger than the cable, all bend radii about 10 times
cable diameter (or more), to make it easy to pull cable for replacement.
Click to expand...
 
Gary Lecomte wrote:
i have a Buried cable that is about 1/2 mile long. It contains 6 pairs
of #22 AWG wires wrapped in a shield and filled with gel. But some
wires are shorting out with others on occassion. And not necessarly
just pairs.

I believe I have Possible solutions to the problems below, but I would
like other opinions before giving mine.

1) How do you make these intermittant shorts, Permanent so they can be
more easily found?
2) How do you determine their location?

Digging up and/or replacing this cable is Not an option. It cost
$10,000 and is only two years old.

Any Legitmate Suggestions Appreciated.......Gary
Click to expand...
First off, you should be posting this to comp.dcom.cabling. You should
get a cable tester that can do TDR and find out how far the
intermittents are from the ends. This might give you a good idea of
what the problem is. If you have it buried, I would guess that you
might have a rodent problem. But it could be something else such as
tree roots. In any case, if you have spare pairs, you're in luck. Just
hope that the spares don't also go bad.
 
Jerry G. wrote:
[snip]
I have a strong feeling you are going to have to lay in a new cable. Also,
you would be very wise to do the job properly using the proper rated piping
that is able to withstand ground and rock movement, and earth pressure.
Click to expand...
Depends. It it's in a conduit, then pulling a new cable may be the
cheaper option. If it's direct buried, then finding the breaks and
repairing them will probably be cheaper.
 
Gary posted, in part:

<< My New Plan is to use a 150 volts or 300 volt @ 100 mA Current Limited
supply. In hopes of Arcing and Fusing these bad spots. Maybe also a Cap to
Give a High Current Burst of power but Hopefully, not enough to damage the
other wires.

Does This sound Reasonable? >>

---

That is on the right track, but there is a piece of eqpt that is built for that
purpose. It's called a "Megger" or a breakdown test set. It will generate
voltage high enough to solidify a swinging short. Once that is done you can
measure the resistance from each end, to the short and get within a foot of the
short.

A TDR is probably the most simple method, though, because it does not require a
solid short; it will show distance to the discontinuity in the path.

The contractor who laid the cable should have tested it before turning it over
to you. I hope he is participating in your effort. If this is a fairly new
placement, he should be doing all the work and covering the costs.

Your description of the sand bed, etc., sounds like they did it right in that
regard, but I suspect they may have damaged the cable by pulling too much load
from the end.

Do you know if the cable is continuous or spliced in the path?

Don
 
Gary Lecomte wrote:
(snip)
In my inital tests, I used an Ohm Meter, but was coming up with
Varying Readings because of probable Contact Resistance at the point
of the short. So I than introduced a 1 Amp, Constant Current Source.
Measuring the voltage at the entry point and calculating the
resistance verses the resistance of the wire, divided by two Because
its a Round Trip, I determined one short to be 7 feet from the end.
Repeated tests that day concured this. However a month later, that
short No Longer Existed! I believe this must Temperature Related,
causing Small Amounts of Contraction and Expansion.
In all Probability I would think all these shorts are at the same
point, But I need to Confirm it before digging this up.
Click to expand...
If this test result is at all valid, I would bet a dollar that the
cable has been cut by the bottom end of the conduit. After the next
time you have made a test, try pulling up, hard (or push down), on the
conduit, and see if the resistance changes.

--
John Popelish
 
Dbowey wrote:

Gary posted, in part:

My New Plan is to use a 150 volts or 300 volt @ 100 mA Current Limited
supply. In hopes of Arcing and Fusing these bad spots. Maybe also a Cap to
Give a High Current Burst of power but Hopefully, not enough to damage the
other wires.

Does This sound Reasonable?

---

That is on the right track, but there is a piece of eqpt that is built for that
purpose. It's called a "Megger" or a breakdown test set. It will generate
voltage high enough to solidify a swinging short. Once that is done you can
measure the resistance from each end, to the short and get within a foot of the
short.

A TDR is probably the most simple method, though, because it does not require a
solid short; it will show distance to the discontinuity in the path.

The contractor who laid the cable should have tested it before turning it over
to you. I hope he is participating in your effort. If this is a fairly new
placement, he should be doing all the work and covering the costs.

Your description of the sand bed, etc., sounds like they did it right in that
regard, but I suspect they may have damaged the cable by pulling too much load
from the end.

Do you know if the cable is continuous or spliced in the path?

Don
Click to expand...
Speaking of contractors and subcontractors. I've spent this morning
undoing a mess that a sub did, and I am _not_ a happy camper. The
idiots used one of my 4-pair telephone lines as a pull line to pull in
three cat5s, and left both ends dangling. And to make matters worse,
they used CMG non-plernum cable thru an obvious plenum! Guess who's
gonna be back out pulling plenum cable? Yeah, that's my revenge. Bastards.
 
Watson posted:

<< Speaking of contractors and subcontractors. I've spent this morning
undoing a mess that a sub did, and I am _not_ a happy camper. The
idiots used one of my 4-pair telephone lines as a pull line to pull in
three cat5s, and left both ends dangling. And to make matters worse,
they used CMG non-plernum cable thru an obvious plenum! Guess who's
gonna be back out pulling plenum cable? Yeah, that's my revenge. Bastards. >>

--

I wouldn't stop there. I would advise the contractor of what the sub did
wrong, and if I got any lip from the contractor, I would explain to the
customer, the deficiencies of the Contractor and the subs. I believe we owe
that to people who hire us.

Don
 
That sucks. I've heard worse though. A major cabling contractor
in my area hired a sub upstate New York for a 1500 drop job. The main
contractor went up there to certify and checkout job and found 40% failure out
of 1500 drops. And to make it better, they mislabled a lot of jacks and
patch panel locations!!!! LOL Talk about a quagmire! LOL

I dont know who to blame, the sub or the main cabling contractor for not
overseeing the project better...

LOL



In article <c8tkds$76f6f$1@hades.csu.net>, NOSPAM@dslextreme.com says...
Dbowey wrote:

Gary posted, in part:

My New Plan is to use a 150 volts or 300 volt @ 100 mA Current Limited
supply. In hopes of Arcing and Fusing these bad spots. Maybe also a Cap to
Give a High Current Burst of power but Hopefully, not enough to damage the
other wires.

Does This sound Reasonable?

---

That is on the right track, but there is a piece of eqpt that is built for
that
purpose. It's called a "Megger" or a breakdown test set. It will generate
voltage high enough to solidify a swinging short. Once that is done you
can
measure the resistance from each end, to the short and get within a foot of
the
short.

A TDR is probably the most simple method, though, because it does not
require a
solid short; it will show distance to the discontinuity in the path.

The contractor who laid the cable should have tested it before turning it
over
to you. I hope he is participating in your effort. If this is a fairly
new
placement, he should be doing all the work and covering the costs.

Your description of the sand bed, etc., sounds like they did it right in
that
regard, but I suspect they may have damaged the cable by pulling too much
load
from the end.

Do you know if the cable is continuous or spliced in the path?

Don

Speaking of contractors and subcontractors. I've spent this morning
undoing a mess that a sub did, and I am _not_ a happy camper. The
idiots used one of my 4-pair telephone lines as a pull line to pull in
three cat5s, and left both ends dangling. And to make matters worse,
they used CMG non-plernum cable thru an obvious plenum! Guess who's
gonna be back out pulling plenum cable? Yeah, that's my revenge. Bastards.
Click to expand...
 
chemelec@hotmail.com (Gary Lecomte) wrote:

i have a Buried cable that is about 1/2 mile long. It contains 6 pairs
of #22 AWG wires wrapped in a shield and filled with gel. But some
wires are shorting out with others on occassion. And not necessarly
just pairs.

I believe I have Possible solutions to the problems below, but I would
like other opinions before giving mine.

1) How do you make these intermittant shorts, Permanent so they can be
more easily found?
2) How do you determine their location?

Digging up and/or replacing this cable is Not an option. It cost
$10,000 and is only two years old.

Any Legitmate Suggestions Appreciated.......Gary
Click to expand...
Go to a telephone supply house and get a cable fault tracer. Put the signal
generator on the bad pair and follow the cable until the level changes - that's
where the fault is.

You can also configure a good oscilloscope to make TDR measurements. Not as
convenient as a des-gned-for-the-purpose TDR, but it works. I've used it to
measure the length of coax cable run between floors of a building - impossible
to measure otherwise.

More about me: http://www.jecarter.com/
VB3/VB6/C/PowerBasic source code: http://www.jecarter.com/programs.html
Freeware for the Palm with NS Basic source code: http://nsb.jecarter.com
Drivers for Pablo graphics tablet and JamCam cameras: http://home.earthlink.net/~mwbt/
johnecarter at@at mindspring dot.dot com. Fix the obvious to reply by email.
 
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