int 13h and greater

[Hul Tytus]

I'm looking for the method(s) used to access disks with greater than 8 gigabytes capacity
on the IBM style computers, ie Compaq/hp, Dell, etc? I've checked interupt 13h for the
presence of "extended" capabilities but have found nothing on 4 different machines.
There is, obviously, another access path. Anyone know what or where it is.

Hul

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 9/4/19 4:52 PM, Hul Tytus wrote:

I'm looking for the method(s) used to access disks with greater than 8 gigabytes capacity
on the IBM style computers, ie Compaq/hp, Dell, etc? I've checked interupt 13h for the
presence of "extended" capabilities but have found nothing on 4 different machines.
There is, obviously, another access path. Anyone know what or where it is.

Hul

IIRC you dork the cylinders/heads/sectors counts. I remember using
things like Spinrite to set that up.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Joe Chisolm]

On Wed, 04 Sep 2019 20:52:50 +0000, Hul Tytus wrote:

I'm looking for the method(s) used to access disks with greater than 8
gigabytes capacity on the IBM style computers, ie Compaq/hp, Dell, etc?
I've checked interupt 13h for the presence of "extended" capabilities
but have found nothing on 4 different machines. There is, obviously,
another access path. Anyone know what or where it is.

Hul

Just google something like "int 13h large disk drives"
All kinds of info comes up.


--
Chisolm
Texas-American

 

[Hul Tytus]

Phil the difficulty is with the disks that have more sectors than Ibm's
code allowed for with the 256/63/1024 counts. Then there was, apparantly
a 256/16/65500 (roughly) count. Then Pheonix established an extension
with a 64 bit sector count, the "logical" accounting, but, as I mentiioned,
there is no evidence of that being in use.
If you, or anyone else, comes across a clue pointing to current methods
do let me know.

Hul

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 9/4/19 4:52 PM, Hul Tytus wrote:
I'm looking for the method(s) used to access disks with greater than 8 gigabytes capacity
on the IBM style computers, ie Compaq/hp, Dell, etc? I've checked interupt 13h for the
presence of "extended" capabilities but have found nothing on 4 different machines.
There is, obviously, another access path. Anyone know what or where it is.

Hul


IIRC you dork the cylinders/heads/sectors counts. I remember using
things like Spinrite to set that up.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Martin Brown]

On 05/09/2019 20:11, Hul Tytus wrote:

Phil the difficulty is with the disks that have more sectors than Ibm's
code allowed for with the 256/63/1024 counts. Then there was, apparantly
a 256/16/65500 (roughly) count. Then Pheonix established an extension
with a 64 bit sector count, the "logical" accounting, but, as I mentiioned,
there is no evidence of that being in use.
If you, or anyone else, comes across a clue pointing to current methods
do let me know.

I don't know whether or not it extends that far but in the distant past
DOSREF provided the most complete reverse engineered list of BIOS calls.

https://www.pcorner.com/list/TUTOR/DOSREF30.ZIP/INFO/

That version is far too old for GB disks but it may help the OP find
something appropriate by asking in the right place.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Robert Baer]

Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 9/4/19 4:52 PM, Hul Tytus wrote:
    I'm looking for the method(s) used to access disks with greater
than 8 gigabytes capacity
on the IBM style computers, ie Compaq/hp, Dell, etc? I've checked
interupt 13h for the
presence of "extended" capabilities but have found nothing on 4
different machines.
There is, obviously, another access path. Anyone know what or where it
is.

Hul


IIRC you dork the cylinders/heads/sectors counts.  I remember using
things like Spinrite to set that up.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

...and then:
*Welcome to IRRC. IRRC's website provides direct access to public
information on regulations and the regulatory process in Pennsylvania.
*Immune-related response criteria - Wikipedia
*27 IRRC Acronym and Abbreviation Meanings
*Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada
*Independent Regulatory Review Commission (IRRC)
*IRRC: Immigrant and Refugee Resource Collaborative
*IRRC - weinberg.udel.edu
*Home - IRRC - International Road Racing Championship
etc,etc and etc..

 

[Robert Baer]

Joe Chisolm wrote:

On Wed, 04 Sep 2019 20:52:50 +0000, Hul Tytus wrote:

I'm looking for the method(s) used to access disks with greater than 8
gigabytes capacity on the IBM style computers, ie Compaq/hp, Dell, etc?
I've checked interupt 13h for the presence of "extended" capabilities
but have found nothing on 4 different machines. There is, obviously,
another access path. Anyone know what or where it is.

Hul

Just google something like "int 13h large disk drives"
All kinds of info comes up.

The seemly best reference i saw was:
The BIOS IDE Harddisk Limitations - web.inter.nl.net
[Search domain web.inter.nl.net/hcc/J.Steunebrink/bioslim.htm]
web.inter.nl.net/hcc/J.Steunebrink/bioslim.htm
Just as with the 504 MB barrier, you need one of these solutions to
break the 8 GB barrier if you do not have the Int 13h extensions: A BIOS
upgrade Add-in card with an Int 13h extension BIOS (this takes over the
Int 13h interface only) Software like Disk Manager or EZ-Drive.

 

and then:
*Welcome to IRRC. IRRC's website provides direct access to public
information on regulations and the regulatory process in Pennsylvania.
*Immune-related response criteria - Wikipedia
*27 IRRC Acronym and Abbreviation Meanings
*Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada
*Independent Regulatory Review Commission (IRRC)
*IRRC: Immigrant and Refugee Resource Collaborative
*IRRC - weinberg.udel.edu
*Home - IRRC - International Road Racing Championship
   etc,etc and etc..

Pro tip: post to public forums only when sober.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 6/9/19 9:21 am, Robert Baer wrote:

Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 9/4/19 4:52 PM, Hul Tytus wrote:
    I'm looking for the method(s) used to access disks with greater
than 8 gigabytes capacity
on the IBM style computers, ie Compaq/hp, Dell, etc? I've checked
interupt 13h for the
presence of "extended" capabilities but have found nothing on 4
different machines.
There is, obviously, another access path. Anyone know what or where
it is.

Hul


IIRC you dork the cylinders/heads/sectors counts.  I remember using
things like Spinrite to set that up.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

..and then:
*Welcome to IRRC. IRRC's website provides direct access to public
information on regulations and the regulatory process in Pennsylvania.
*Immune-related response criteria - Wikipedia
*27 IRRC Acronym and Abbreviation Meanings
*Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada
*Independent Regulatory Review Commission (IRRC)
*IRRC: Immigrant and Refugee Resource Collaborative
*IRRC - weinberg.udel.edu
*Home - IRRC - International Road Racing Championship
  etc,etc and etc..

If I Recall Correctly, there is little hope to educate someone that
can't even copy/paste correctly.

 

[Martin Riddle]

On Wed, 4 Sep 2019 20:52:50 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com>
wrote:

I'm looking for the method(s) used to access disks with greater than 8 gigabytes capacity
on the IBM style computers, ie Compaq/hp, Dell, etc? I've checked interupt 13h for the
presence of "extended" capabilities but have found nothing on 4 different machines.
There is, obviously, another access path. Anyone know what or where it is.

Hul

Bios calls are protected mode. Only used by the boot loader, then The
windows disk drivers handle the rest.

Cheers

 

On Wed, 4 Sep 2019 20:52:50 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus <ht@panix.com>
wrote:

I'm looking for the method(s) used to access disks with greater than 8 gigabytes capacity
on the IBM style computers, ie Compaq/hp, Dell, etc? I've checked interupt 13h for the
presence of "extended" capabilities but have found nothing on 4 different machines.
There is, obviously, another access path. Anyone know what or where it is.

Hul

Isn't BIOS interrupts only used for starting the initial bootstrap
code. When some OS code is up and running, those codes will access
disks of whatever size. After the initial bootstrap, the extremely
slow BIOS is no longer used.

Use a small (< 8GB) disk for booting and most fundamental parts of the
OS and use huge disk(s) for application data.

 

[Tim Williams]

I don't see anything in Ralf Brown's classic list.

There's always the IDE port itself. Have fun.
http://www.controllersandpcs.de/ataio/code_snippets.pdf
If you have PnP, read up on all of that too. You'll probably need to enter
protected mode to access most of the address space, and that may be where
the advanced features lay. AFAIK, IO space isn't affected by RM/PM, but
most PCI+ devices are memory mapped so you're kind of screwed otherwise.

And from there, obviously, you need to know where the registers and spaces
are, and how to use them. In other words, writing vendor-specific drivers.
Good luck. You may be better off finding the respective Windows driver and
reverse-engineering it, or building an interface to run it as such. Or
finding the respective Linux driver, and implement the interface (freely
published) and adapt it to DOS interfaces.

Incidentally, you didn't note what kinds of disks you're trying to access.
You also didn't specify what age of computers. IBM/Lenovo, HP and Dell are
all current brands, and their latest products run modern OSs that access
"large" disks just fine, so your problem seems to have a trivial solution...


Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

"Hul Tytus" <ht@panix.com> wrote in message
news:qkp872$hhp$1@reader2.panix.com...

I'm looking for the method(s) used to access disks with greater than 8
gigabytes capacity
on the IBM style computers, ie Compaq/hp, Dell, etc? I've checked interupt
13h for the
presence of "extended" capabilities but have found nothing on 4 different
machines.
There is, obviously, another access path. Anyone know what or where it is.

Hul

 

[Hul Tytus]

Tim the hp laptop I have doesnt have the "extension" Phoenix wrote, but
the bios is dated 2013. By the way, Brown lists that extension. Called,
if I remember correctly, IBM/MS extension. 64 bit int. for sectoe #.
That extension dates to 98,99,2000.
Writing a driver for the ide disks is doable but i'd like to use the
USB via 13h. Given a usable 13h extension, I could do a little editing
on a disk editor I have and that would solve a fair chunk of whats
neccessary. Ide may be there and maybe not.
The trivial solution you mention is the objective. But, from whats
seen so far, it may be hindered by the manufacture's "my applications"
interests.

Hul


Tim Williams <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:

I don't see anything in Ralf Brown's classic list.

There's always the IDE port itself. Have fun.
http://www.controllersandpcs.de/ataio/code_snippets.pdf
If you have PnP, read up on all of that too. You'll probably need to enter
protected mode to access most of the address space, and that may be where
the advanced features lay. AFAIK, IO space isn't affected by RM/PM, but
most PCI+ devices are memory mapped so you're kind of screwed otherwise.

And from there, obviously, you need to know where the registers and spaces
are, and how to use them. In other words, writing vendor-specific drivers.
Good luck. You may be better off finding the respective Windows driver and
reverse-engineering it, or building an interface to run it as such. Or
finding the respective Linux driver, and implement the interface (freely
published) and adapt it to DOS interfaces.

Incidentally, you didn't note what kinds of disks you're trying to access.
You also didn't specify what age of computers. IBM/Lenovo, HP and Dell are
all current brands, and their latest products run modern OSs that access
"large" disks just fine, so your problem seems to have a trivial solution...


Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

"Hul Tytus" <ht@panix.com> wrote in message
news:qkp872$hhp$1@reader2.panix.com...
I'm looking for the method(s) used to access disks with greater than 8
gigabytes capacity
on the IBM style computers, ie Compaq/hp, Dell, etc? I've checked interupt
13h for the
presence of "extended" capabilities but have found nothing on 4 different
machines.
There is, obviously, another access path. Anyone know what or where it is.

Hul

 

[Tim Williams]

"Hul Tytus" <ht@panix.com> wrote in message
news:qku091$8e4$1@reader2.panix.com...

Tim the hp laptop I have doesnt have the "extension" Phoenix wrote, but
the bios is dated 2013. By the way, Brown lists that extension. Called,
if I remember correctly, IBM/MS extension. 64 bit int. for sectoe #.
That extension dates to 98,99,2000.
Writing a driver for the ide disks is doable but i'd like to use the
USB via 13h. Given a usable 13h extension, I could do a little editing
on a disk editor I have and that would solve a fair chunk of whats
neccessary. Ide may be there and maybe not.
The trivial solution you mention is the objective. But, from whats
seen so far, it may be hindered by the manufacture's "my applications"
interests.

Can you not just boot into $OS, mount the drive, with all the usual device
drivers, and inspect it that way? Boot a Knoppix CD and poke at /dev/hda?

My 2010s laptop running WinXP accesses its 500GB SATA drive just fine.

If your laptop can't do that, it's not worth anything anyway. Except
perhaps as a vintage relic, but then, it's not nearly old enough to have any
value, either.

I suppose I'll have a hard time convincing anyone on /Usenet/ that they
should be pragmatic.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

 

On Wednesday, September 4, 2019 at 4:52:54 PM UTC-4, Hul Tytus wrote:

I'm looking for the method(s) used to access disks with greater than 8 gigabytes capacity
on the IBM style computers, ie Compaq/hp, Dell, etc? I've checked interupt 13h for the
presence of "extended" capabilities but have found nothing on 4 different machines.
There is, obviously, another access path. Anyone know what or where it is.

Hul

Isn't a T bigger than a G? What is your problem?

 

[Hul Tytus]

Tim - writing a program on windows whatever is a hassel. Especially if
its a disk editor using the bios. Microsoft frowns on such programs.

Hul

Tim Williams <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:

"Hul Tytus" <ht@panix.com> wrote in message
news:qku091$8e4$1@reader2.panix.com...
Tim the hp laptop I have doesnt have the "extension" Phoenix wrote, but
the bios is dated 2013. By the way, Brown lists that extension. Called,
if I remember correctly, IBM/MS extension. 64 bit int. for sectoe #.
That extension dates to 98,99,2000.
Writing a driver for the ide disks is doable but i'd like to use the
USB via 13h. Given a usable 13h extension, I could do a little editing
on a disk editor I have and that would solve a fair chunk of whats
neccessary. Ide may be there and maybe not.
The trivial solution you mention is the objective. But, from whats
seen so far, it may be hindered by the manufacture's "my applications"
interests.


Can you not just boot into $OS, mount the drive, with all the usual device
drivers, and inspect it that way? Boot a Knoppix CD and poke at /dev/hda?

My 2010s laptop running WinXP accesses its 500GB SATA drive just fine.

If your laptop can't do that, it's not worth anything anyway. Except
perhaps as a vintage relic, but then, it's not nearly old enough to have any
value, either.

I suppose I'll have a hard time convincing anyone on /Usenet/ that they
should be pragmatic.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

 

[Joe Chisolm]

On Fri, 06 Sep 2019 20:36:05 +0000, Hul Tytus wrote:

Tim - writing a program on windows whatever is a hassel. Especially if
its a disk editor using the bios. Microsoft frowns on such programs.

Hul

Tim Williams <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:
"Hul Tytus" <ht@panix.com> wrote in message
news:qku091$8e4$1@reader2.panix.com...
Tim the hp laptop I have doesnt have the "extension" Phoenix wrote,
but the bios is dated 2013. By the way, Brown lists that extension.
Called, if I remember correctly, IBM/MS extension. 64 bit int. for
sectoe #. That extension dates to 98,99,2000.
Writing a driver for the ide disks is doable but i'd like to use
the
USB via 13h. Given a usable 13h extension, I could do a little
editing on a disk editor I have and that would solve a fair chunk of
whats neccessary. Ide may be there and maybe not.
The trivial solution you mention is the objective. But, from whats
seen so far, it may be hindered by the manufacture's "my
applications" interests.


Can you not just boot into $OS, mount the drive, with all the usual
device drivers, and inspect it that way? Boot a Knoppix CD and poke at
/dev/hda?

My 2010s laptop running WinXP accesses its 500GB SATA drive just fine.

If your laptop can't do that, it's not worth anything anyway. Except
perhaps as a vintage relic, but then, it's not nearly old enough to
have any value, either.

I suppose I'll have a hard time convincing anyone on /Usenet/ that they
should be pragmatic.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and
Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

So what are you trying to write? Some stand-alone bare metal
program or what?


--
Chisolm
Texas-American

 

[Hul Tytus]

Several things Joe. First a disk editor on msdos (close to "bare metal") that
need to access > 8gb. Second a bios, or bios style, driver for an operating
system (Minix).

Hul

Joe Chisolm <jchisolm6@earthlink.net> wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2019 20:36:05 +0000, Hul Tytus wrote:

Tim - writing a program on windows whatever is a hassel. Especially if
its a disk editor using the bios. Microsoft frowns on such programs.

Hul

Tim Williams <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:
"Hul Tytus" <ht@panix.com> wrote in message
news:qku091$8e4$1@reader2.panix.com...
Tim the hp laptop I have doesnt have the "extension" Phoenix wrote,
but the bios is dated 2013. By the way, Brown lists that extension.
Called, if I remember correctly, IBM/MS extension. 64 bit int. for
sectoe #. That extension dates to 98,99,2000.
Writing a driver for the ide disks is doable but i'd like to use
the
USB via 13h. Given a usable 13h extension, I could do a little
editing on a disk editor I have and that would solve a fair chunk of
whats neccessary. Ide may be there and maybe not.
The trivial solution you mention is the objective. But, from whats
seen so far, it may be hindered by the manufacture's "my
applications" interests.


Can you not just boot into $OS, mount the drive, with all the usual
device drivers, and inspect it that way? Boot a Knoppix CD and poke at
/dev/hda?

My 2010s laptop running WinXP accesses its 500GB SATA drive just fine.

If your laptop can't do that, it's not worth anything anyway. Except
perhaps as a vintage relic, but then, it's not nearly old enough to
have any value, either.

I suppose I'll have a hard time convincing anyone on /Usenet/ that they
should be pragmatic.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and
Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

So what are you trying to write? Some stand-alone bare metal
program or what?

--
Chisolm
Texas-American

 

[Tim Williams]

"Hul Tytus" <ht@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ql0m30$4db$2@reader2.panix.com...

Several things Joe. First a disk editor on msdos (close to "bare metal")
that
need to access > 8gb. Second a bios, or bios style, driver for an
operating
system (Minix).

So you'll spurn an OS that supports your operations grudgingly, and rather
choose an OS that doesn't support the device at all..?

A bootable *nix image, on CD-R or thumb drive, seems like the way to go.
Learning Linux commands seems like a small price to pay.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

 

[Joe Chisolm]

On Sat, 07 Sep 2019 16:32:32 +0000, Hul Tytus wrote:

Several things Joe. First a disk editor on msdos (close to "bare metal")
that need to access > 8gb. Second a bios, or bios style, driver for an
operating system (Minix).

Hul

Joe Chisolm <jchisolm6@earthlink.net> wrote:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2019 20:36:05 +0000, Hul Tytus wrote:

Tim - writing a program on windows whatever is a hassel. Especially
if its a disk editor using the bios. Microsoft frowns on such
programs.

Hul

Tim Williams <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:
"Hul Tytus" <ht@panix.com> wrote in message
news:qku091$8e4$1@reader2.panix.com...
Tim the hp laptop I have doesnt have the "extension" Phoenix
wrote,
but the bios is dated 2013. By the way, Brown lists that
extension. Called, if I remember correctly, IBM/MS extension. 64
bit int. for sectoe #. That extension dates to 98,99,2000.
Writing a driver for the ide disks is doable but i'd like to use
the
USB via 13h. Given a usable 13h extension, I could do a little
editing on a disk editor I have and that would solve a fair chunk
of whats neccessary. Ide may be there and maybe not.
The trivial solution you mention is the objective. But, from
whats
seen so far, it may be hindered by the manufacture's "my
applications" interests.


Can you not just boot into $OS, mount the drive, with all the usual
device drivers, and inspect it that way? Boot a Knoppix CD and poke
at /dev/hda?

My 2010s laptop running WinXP accesses its 500GB SATA drive just
fine.

If your laptop can't do that, it's not worth anything anyway.
Except perhaps as a vintage relic, but then, it's not nearly old
enough to have any value, either.

I suppose I'll have a hard time convincing anyone on /Usenet/ that
they should be pragmatic.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and
Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/

So what are you trying to write? Some stand-alone bare metal program
or what?


--
Chisolm Texas-American

Wow - Minx - that's a name I have not heard in many years.
Last time I did anything with Minx was maybe '89 or '90 time frame.
I see it's still hanging in there but the hardware requirements
have sure grown in the last 30 years.

Pull the source code for FreeDOS. I think it will handle
drives up to 128GB. See how they are doing it.
In a simple dos environment you can talk directly to the controller
I did a lot of work modifying the driver for a 9-track tape drive
(anyone remember the old IBEX ISA tape controller with the pertec
interface?) You dont have to do command queing or sector sorting
or any of that stuff. Hell, just spin wait for command completion.

If you are trying to write some hacking tool that will work across
a bunch of different mother boards using just INT 13H you will
have limited success.


--
Chisolm
Texas-American