Inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?

[Bill Moinihan]

danny burstein wrote:

My head hurts on trying to figure out just how a legacy
ballast can worh with a retrofitted LED tube, but
they do. I've installed a few of them.

I only yesterday figured out how (by looking it up) a legacy ballast works
with LED tubes, but I couldn't find an article that explains how it works
with LEDs.

I measured the before and after using a Kil-a-watt brand meter.
Don't have the paper here, but the measurements were something
like the following.

twin "40" fluorescent fixture:

Ballast only w/no lamps: 12 watts
Ballast w/both lamps: 84

Retrofitted with a "drop in" LED:

Ballst w/LEDs: 60

Light output was higer with the LEDs.

Again, these are NOT the exact numbers,
but there definitely was a savings when
using the drop in replacements.

Thanks for providing that reference information.
I have to admit, the two 4-bulb lamps currently with the LEDs in them are
brighter than the sun it seems, at least in a garage they are.

Compared to the fluorescents, they rock with light output!

I just hope they last, given they are T8s on a T12 ballast.

 

[Bill Moinihan]

Ralph Mowery wrote:

You need to get the bulbs to match the ballast which in this case is
'instant start'. I have not bought any floursecent bulbs ina while, but
the last time I bought them seems that I could get a box of 12 for only
a little more than 4 bulbs.

If going to the LED type bulbs you may not even need the ballast. I
have not replaced any flourscent with the LED in the same fixture so can
not comment on that.

It would be nice if I can just cut out the ballast altogether.
Maybe the LED bulbs work with or without the ballast?
I'll call Feit tomorrow to ask if that's possible.

 

[Bill Moinihan]

Bill Moinihan wrote:

Now we get to the hazardous waste where it says "T12 lamps release toxic
mercury and PCB waste products".

Huh? Why would T12s release more of these than T8s?

Reading more, I think they are just making most of this stuff up.

This article lists all the stuff that was retired:
http://www.ledsource.com/blog/light-bulb-ban-continues-t8-700-series-fluorescent-tube/


100 watt and 150 watt incandescent A-lamp ĄV banned January 1, 2012
75 watt incandescent A-lamp ĄV banned January 1, 2013
60 watt incandescent A-lamp ĄV banned January 1, 2014
40 watt incandescent A-lamp ĄV banned January 1, 2014

T8 single-pin fluorescent 8 foot slim and high-output ĄV banned January
2009
Most reflector lamps over 50 watts (except some 65W) ĄV July 1, 2010
Magnetic ballasts for many standard fluorescent lamps ĄV July 1, 2010
T12 fluorescent tubes 4 foot ĄV banned July 14, 2012
T12 fluorescent tubes 2 foot U-Bend ĄV banned July 14, 2012
T12 fluorescent tubes 8 foot (slim and high output)ĄV banned July 14,
2012
T8 with low CRI ĄV banned July 14, 2012 (DOE changed CRI to 87 in April
2011)
PAR20, PAR30, PAR38 Halogen standard lamps (within 40W to 205W) ĄV
banned July 14, 2012

So it just seems to be an "efficiency" thing since they all have different
secondary reasons.

 

[Bill Moinihan]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Ahem... There are other LED failure modes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LED_failure_modes

That article lists:
- The package components yellow
- Thermal expansion & contraction cause components to crack
- Phosphor degeneration
- Nucleation
- EM
- ionizing radiation
- Metal melting on the chip
- Whiskers shorting out traces
- thermal runaway
- current crowding
- electrostatic discharge
- reverse bias

 

[Bill Moinihan]

Ralph Mowery wrote:

If going to the LED type bulbs you may not even need the ballast. I
have not replaced any flourscent with the LED in the same fixture so can
not comment on that.

This bulb seems to simply require me to "bypass the ballast":
http://www.ledsource.com/products/effinion-lt-series-led-tubes/

 

[HerHusband]

Bill,

These Costco Feit LED tubes are VERY BRIGHT compared to the
fluorescent lights. Maybe that's because the T12 ballast is
"overdriving" them? I don't know, but it's like daylight in the garage
now with 12 of them lighting up the ceiling.

Your package photo shows a lumen output of just 1700 lumens, compared to
around 2800 lumens for a fluorescent bulb. So technically it's putting out
LESS light.

Your old bulbs were probably dimming with age and giving off a bit more of
a "warm" glow. Your new LED's have a whiter light, which can make them
seem brighter when they really aren't.

In any case, as long as you're happy with the light output it doesn't
really matter.

Take care,

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

 

[Meanie]

On 11/2/2016 10:25 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Bill Moinihan wrote:

My ballast is so old, that it's made in the United States (NJ in fact).
Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be
found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may
have to
be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts.

I understand that due to the 110/230 voltage differences, fluorescent
tubes and their ballasts are wired differently on each side of the
Atlantic, but over here converting a fluorescent fitting to LEDs usually
involves removing the ballast and starter, is that not the case over there?

When LEDs were first available as replacements for tubed fluorescent,
they had to be direct wired (removal of ballasts). Now they've made LEDs
to use the existing ballasts as it's driver. Though, that could still
differ based on geographic location.

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <nve7ba$qm5$2@news.mixmin.net>, moi@example.com says...

Thanks for that suggestion!

How does this one look from Home Depot?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/120-Volt-Electronic-Ballast-for-4-ft-4-Lamp-T8-Fixture-93885/205409893

One question is whether I need "instant start" or "programmed/rapid start":
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/4-lamp-t8-fluorescent-ballasts/

I think I need "rapid" start because that's what is there now, I think.

Since cost is a major issue for me (I have little money but want to get rid
of the buzzing from the bad ballast and if I can get rid of fluorescent
tubes and save money on electricity, that would be a plus), here's the cost
breakdown:

$20 for the T8 electronic ballast
$28 for the four T8 LED bulbs
-----------------
%50 roughly, for the retrofit

Is that my best option?

You need to get the bulbs to match the ballast which in this case is
'instant start'. I have not bought any floursecent bulbs ina while, but
the last time I bought them seems that I could get a box of 12 for only
a little more than 4 bulbs.

If going to the LED type bulbs you may not even need the ballast. I
have not replaced any flourscent with the LED in the same fixture so can
not comment on that.

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <nve8lv$st4$2@news.mixmin.net>, moi@example.com says...

Meanie wrote:

Correct. T12 are obsolete.

Thanks for confirming. The funny thing is that the only difference is the
diameter (and the wattage), so, it's odd that they're "obsolete" just
because they're a bit fatter.

What's so bad about a 40W tube versus a 32W tube?
Is the 8 watts really a big deal?

Or is there some other reason to ban "fat" tubes?

It could be the 8 watts or more likely the makeup of the tube. Less
glass and material. The tubes do contain mercury so less of that to
deal with. They kept cutting down on the mercury in the t12 tubes and
someetimes they would not start up if it was much below 50 deg F. Not
sure of the makeup of the coating on the inside ot the tubes, but less
used there also.

I worked in a large company that had thousands of bulbs. Toward the
last of the t12 tubes we had many that would not start up and this was
in a room that was over 70 deg F.

 

[Meanie]

On 11/2/2016 10:17 AM, Bill Moinihan wrote:

Apparently there is no repair; it can only be replaced, but it can't be
found, so it has to be replaced with a different ballast, which may have to
be T8 because they may no longer even sell T12 ballasts.

Correct. T12 are obsolete.

Thanks for saying that one controls outer and one controls inner.
Is that the standard setup?

Yes. The other set up would be a single four lamp ballast.

Yes. I saw videos where people followed those wires.
I like the name "tombstone", as it fits the rounded-top rectangular shape.

I also found out that a T12 is 12/8ths of an inch in diameter, so, just
looking at the lamps, I should have known that the diameter indicated a T12
while the diameter of the LEDs indicated a T8 (8/8ths of an inch), although
neither seems to be that large in diameter in actuality.

Correct. A T8 is supposed to be 1 inch in diameter.

Yes. You are correct, in that I looked this up and these are the colors:
The ballast has 2 yellows that go to both prongs at one end of two lamps.
It has 2 reds that go to both prongs of the other end of the first one of
those two lamps, and then it has 2 blues that go to both prongs of the other
end of the second of those two lamps.

I think I just have to remove stuff to see where the ballasts go, but in
looking up how to replace them, I realized that I will never find a 1:1
replacement.

I think it may be "easier" and more cost effective to just replace the
entire assembly. Any suggestions for an inexpensive replacement?

Ballasts are now becoming universal. In that, I mean, they can
accommodate voltage of 120 to 277 and they no longer have two wires of
each color. Instead, they offer one red and two blues. Each of those
wires connects with the two wires from each lamp. Thus, the single red
will connect to the two yellows, one blue will connect to two blues and
the other blue will connect to the two reds.

Unfortunately, inexpensive replacements usually mean cheap ballasts
which will not last long. Also keep in mind if you continue to use
fluorescent fixtures, when a lamp is burned out, it is best to replace
asap to ensure long life of the ballast. When a lamp isn't working, the
ballast continuously attempts igniting the non-working lamp and that
decreases the life of the ballast.

 

[Meanie]

On 11/2/2016 2:26 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:

In sci.electronics.repair Bill Moinihan <moi@example.com> wrote:
What is an inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
https://s13.postimg.org/7jivra81j/garage_lights.jpg

There are four of these sets of lights, each of which holds 4 flourescent
bulbs, which keep flickering, burning out, and making humming sounds.

What do you think, honestly, of this idea?

It's bad, but not by intent.

Costco has supposedly "universal" LED replacement tubes:
https://s21.postimg.org/qei7hifs7/1_led_tubes_at_costco.jpg

The price is currently $7.70 per tube:
https://s21.postimg.org/8pqgpw413/2_led_tubes_at_costco.jpg

So I bought 16 of these reputedly "universal" LED tubes:
https://s21.postimg.org/7oq80rn1j/3_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

At home I compared them by size to the original tubes:
https://s21.postimg.org/khec0oynb/4_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

Where I can't find any T2 or T4 or T8 or T12 designation at all:
https://s21.postimg.org/4x6ya5oiv/5_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

Looks like a standard T12 bulb. It's real easy to test though. Each "T" in
a bulb designator is 1/8th of an inch. T8s are 1 inch in diameter for
example. T5 is 5/8th inch etc.

All four of the 4-tube boxes hum and flicker and have bad bulbs:
https://s21.postimg.org/ne1d0z4h3/6_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

Opening them up, I find only about half still working:
https://s21.postimg.org/9lrjj333b/7_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

I can't find the ballast nor the T2,T4,T8 designation inside.
All it says on the metal is "USE RAPID START LAMPS":
https://s21.postimg.org/jlhul8oyv/8_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

Where's the ballast?
Will these bulbs work in these 4 4-bulb garage fixtures?
What type of lights do I have anyway (T2?, T4?, T8? T12?)

LED retrofits are usually real stupid in practice as there's no point of
installing "efficient" lighting in an old shitty fixture. Running LEDs off
an old magnetic ballast is is just way convoluted. Ballasts die all the
time anyways and if they go, they're likely to take anything connected to
them with it.

The best move is get a new fixture. It will have a new electronic ballast
and will take better skinnier flourescent bulbs. It will be the best of
all worlds- cheap bulbs, no flicker and good colored qualities. LEDs can't
touch that, especially cheapo stuff at the discount warehouse.

Not sure where you obtain your info but LED lamps offer a wide range of
lumen output and color output and they don't flicker unless they are
cheap LEDs. The price of fluorescent tubes are increasing, even T8s
while LEDs are still decreasing.

As I stated in another reply, fluorescent lamps can last a very long
time if they remain on all day or use a program start ballast. The
constant on/off is what kills them prematurely. LEDs can handle the
on/off for years and their only problem is losing light output after the
manufactures lifetime claim.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 21:48:54 -0400, Meanie <meanie@gmail.com> wrote:

LEDs can handle the
on/off for years and their only problem is losing light output after the
manufactures lifetime claim.

Ahem... There are other LED failure modes:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LED_failure_modes>


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 12:29:15 AM UTC-4, HerHusband wrote:

Your package photo shows a lumen output of just 1700 lumens, compared to
around 2800 lumens for a fluorescent bulb. So technically it's putting out
LESS light.

OK - A few things on the nature of LEDs and the nature of Fluorescent lamps, and the nature of ballasts, magnetic or electronic:

a) LED lamp/tube/whatever emitters are flat devices mounted on some surface that distributes the light in a 'designed' manner. A fluorescent tube emits light in all directions, much of which is absorbed by the surrounding sheet metal (remember back in the day, reflective shields were added above the tubes to capture some of this light and in a 4-tube fixture, usually two were removed to 'save energy') LED tubes do not have this failing and direct most of their light were it is actually useful. So, lower lumens, more light.

b) Fluorescent lamps can lose more than 60% of their output and still function. Most, however, crap out at about 70% of original output. But one run continuously may go as low as 40% before actual failure - which is when the filament at either end or both ends fails.

c) 'Magnetic' ballasts are just like any other transformer-based device. They do not "PUSH" current, what is connected to then "PULLS" the current. So more efficient lamps will *pull* less current.

d) Electronic ballasts are switching devices, and also do not PUSH. Nor do 'bad lamps' affect them as badly as they do magnetic ballasts. Typically, they do not overheat or die from that process. They die, mostly, from the failure of some internal component such as a capacitor.

e) Putting a T8 lamp on a T12 ballast will vastly shorten the life of the lamp, UNLESS the ballasts is marked specifically as T8/T12 compliant. A T12 ballast runs at a higher voltage than a T8 ballast. Again, switching ballasts are often designed to 'sense' what is connected to them.

So, guys and gals, the choice as to whether to convert or purchase new is one that should purely be made on the basis of saving landfill and/or mine-to-landfill cost analysis - after which comes energy efficiency. Making a new fixture takes energy from some source, the processing of materials either 'new' or 'recycled' or some combination of both, and the shipping of that material to a user. Whereupon it is used-up or consumed and the detritus is either landfilled or recycled. There are costs associated with every step, in cash and in environmental impacts. The energy associated with a new fixture, disposing of the old and environmental considerations will offset a great deal of energy used by an old fixture, if it is otherwise operating efficiently. But, if it is not, then one owes the future the decision to go with the fixture that has the lowest overall impact on the environment - from when the raw materials are mined or refined to how much of it could be recycled in the future, to the actual cost of disposal, to the energy used during its life.

And why it is, thereby, that first-cost should almost NEVER be a deciding factor when making any purchase of any nature of any item/appliance that consumes energy as its primary function.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Klay Anderson]

On Tuesday, November 1, 2016 at 5:07:03 PM UTC-6, Bill Moinihan wrote:

What is an inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
https://s13.postimg.org/7jivra81j/garage_lights.jpg

There are four of these sets of lights, each of which holds 4 flourescent
bulbs, which keep flickering, burning out, and making humming sounds.

What do you think, honestly, of this idea?

Buying the wrong thing at any price is still....buying the wrong thing. We have been importing LED T8 since 2010. The BEST method is to ignore the "works with ballast" claims (most do NOT) and get tubes that work directly. Remove the ballast, take LINE to one end of the tube, NEUTRAL to the other (there is usually enough wire internally to do this using cutters and a wire nut or two) and be done with it. These tubes are generally the same price. Also use a CORRECT color temperature. For most applications, we use 4000K. Warm offices, 3000K. You don't need no stinking ballast, folks.

Klay

 

[Bill Moinihan]

HerHusband wrote:

Your package photo shows a lumen output of just 1700 lumens, compared to
around 2800 lumens for a fluorescent bulb. So technically it's putting out
LESS light.

Thanks for noticing that detail.
The old bulbs must have been dimmed, as you noted, over time.
The new light is bright, by comparison.

 

[Bill Moinihan]

Jon Elson wrote:

I was horrified to discover how inefficient old T12
ballasts were.

Yikes! I guess I should replace the T12 ballasts with T8 electronic
ballasts.

If there's a sale on em... I will.

 

[Bill Moinihan]

On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 14:48:37 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:

Well, T12 ballasts made before 1977 or so MIGHT have had PCBs in them, but
more likely it was phased out a decade before that. Certainly, no NEW
ballasts have had any PCB content for decades.

Thanks for that update.

After reading a few of these articles, and after noting that the government
bans *plenty* of other bulbs (which don't have ballasts), the *real* reason
is just the energy efficiency, I'm sure.

I guess the write of that article I referenced needed more words, so they
went on about PCBs, but, that's not the real reason.

They even banned some T8 bulbs, for example. And Halogens. And incandescent.

So, it's all about energy.

 

[Cydrome Leader]

In sci.electronics.repair Meanie <meanie@gmail.com> wrote:

On 11/2/2016 2:26 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair Bill Moinihan <moi@example.com> wrote:
What is an inexpensive replacement for these garage flourescent lights?
https://s13.postimg.org/7jivra81j/garage_lights.jpg

There are four of these sets of lights, each of which holds 4 flourescent
bulbs, which keep flickering, burning out, and making humming sounds.

What do you think, honestly, of this idea?

It's bad, but not by intent.

Costco has supposedly "universal" LED replacement tubes:
https://s21.postimg.org/qei7hifs7/1_led_tubes_at_costco.jpg

The price is currently $7.70 per tube:
https://s21.postimg.org/8pqgpw413/2_led_tubes_at_costco.jpg

So I bought 16 of these reputedly "universal" LED tubes:
https://s21.postimg.org/7oq80rn1j/3_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

At home I compared them by size to the original tubes:
https://s21.postimg.org/khec0oynb/4_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

Where I can't find any T2 or T4 or T8 or T12 designation at all:
https://s21.postimg.org/4x6ya5oiv/5_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

Looks like a standard T12 bulb. It's real easy to test though. Each "T" in
a bulb designator is 1/8th of an inch. T8s are 1 inch in diameter for
example. T5 is 5/8th inch etc.

All four of the 4-tube boxes hum and flicker and have bad bulbs:
https://s21.postimg.org/ne1d0z4h3/6_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

Opening them up, I find only about half still working:
https://s21.postimg.org/9lrjj333b/7_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

I can't find the ballast nor the T2,T4,T8 designation inside.
All it says on the metal is "USE RAPID START LAMPS":
https://s21.postimg.org/jlhul8oyv/8_led_tubes_at_home.jpg

Where's the ballast?
Will these bulbs work in these 4 4-bulb garage fixtures?
What type of lights do I have anyway (T2?, T4?, T8? T12?)

LED retrofits are usually real stupid in practice as there's no point of
installing "efficient" lighting in an old shitty fixture. Running LEDs off
an old magnetic ballast is is just way convoluted. Ballasts die all the
time anyways and if they go, they're likely to take anything connected to
them with it.

The best move is get a new fixture. It will have a new electronic ballast
and will take better skinnier flourescent bulbs. It will be the best of
all worlds- cheap bulbs, no flicker and good colored qualities. LEDs can't
touch that, especially cheapo stuff at the discount warehouse.


Not sure where you obtain your info but LED lamps offer a wide range of
lumen output and color output and they don't flicker unless they are
cheap LEDs. The price of fluorescent tubes are increasing, even T8s
while LEDs are still decreasing.

For starters, I have eyes. I can see color, flicker and easily note bad
quality lighting, which most LED units are.

As I stated in another reply, fluorescent lamps can last a very long
time if they remain on all day or use a program start ballast. The
constant on/off is what kills them prematurely. LEDs can handle the
on/off for years and their only problem is losing light output after the
manufactures lifetime claim.

Yeah, right, the brightness only drops after 50,000 hours.

get real.

 

[Jon Elson]

Cydrome Leader wrote:

LED retrofits are usually real stupid in practice as there's no point of
installing "efficient" lighting in an old shitty fixture. Running LEDs
off an old magnetic ballast is just way convoluted. Ballasts die all the
time anyways and if they go, they're likely to take anything connected to
them with it.

Yes, definitely. I was horrified to discover how inefficient old T12
ballasts were. When I did my LED retrofit, I made before/after
measurements. I was using 32W-rated T12 lamps, and the old 2-lamp ballast
drew 103W!!! Yikes, I would have done this sooner if I had known!

Using a commercial 350 mA LED lighting power supply on a string of 20 "1 W"
LEDs to replace the two-lamp set, it drew 21 W. The light output is
probably less than two new T12 lamps, but plenty of light for a kitchen,
with 3 of these 2-lamp fixtures.

This is a good point in that the original T12 ballasts are due to die
sooner than the LED bulbs will die, especially since the original ballasts
are so old that they're made in the USA (which means they're really old).

And when the original ballasts die, the T8 LED bulbs will be useless.

The best move is get a new fixture. It will have a new electronic ballast
and will take better skinnier flourescent bulbs. It will be the best of
all worlds- cheap bulbs, no flicker and good colored qualities. LEDs
can't touch that, especially cheapo stuff at the discount warehouse.

Well, I'm totally happy with my 20-LED strings. Color temperature is much
better than I expected, nobody has complained at all. Light output is fine,
and you can't beat 21 W line draw for the equivalent of 2 T12 lamps.

Jon

 

[Jon Elson]

Bill Moinihan wrote:

Here is a second direct quote of the secondary reason:
"Polychlorinaed Biphenyls are used in T12 fixture ballast manufacturing"

Huh? Why would a T12 ballast use PCBs while a T8 ballast wouldn't?
Makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to you?

Well, T12 ballasts made before 1977 or so MIGHT have had PCBs in them, but
more likely it was phased out a decade before that. Certainly, no NEW
ballasts have had any PCB content for decades.

Jon