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Please cite a URL or information source for this.IBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy than
liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
Is the spent battery material reprocessed or is the battery simply
recharged?
What is the projected price?
Bret Cahill
No, they didn't.IBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy than
liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
Is the spent battery material reprocessed or is the battery simply
recharged?
What is the projected price?
Bret Cahill
What they are actually doing is working on a proposal to get funding"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9684b1cd-dbe5-4784-8034-df8d496f5806@b9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
IBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy than
liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
Is the spent battery material reprocessed or is the battery simply
recharged?
What is the projected price?
Bret Cahill
Please cite a URL or information source for this.
What does "mechanical energy" mean when talking about a battery or a fuel?
Thanks. It looks like a form of this lithium-air battery already exists soIn sci.physics Bob Eld <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9684b1cd-dbe5-4784-8034-df8d496f5806@b9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
IBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy than
liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
Is the spent battery material reprocessed or is the battery simply
recharged?
What is the projected price?
Bret Cahill
Please cite a URL or information source for this.
What does "mechanical energy" mean when talking about a battery or a
fuel?
What they are actually doing is working on a proposal to get funding
from DOE to start research into the possibility of developing a
whiz-bang battery.
http://beta.technologyreview.com/energy/22780/
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Nobody knows. That's why when people say battery, theIBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy than
liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
Is the spent battery material reprocessed or is the battery simply
recharged?
What is the projected price?
Bret Cahill
IBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy than
liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
[snip crap]
Yeah, well there still is the inconvienient reality that there isn'tjimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:ns4dg6-45f.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
In sci.physics Bob Eld <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9684b1cd-dbe5-4784-8034-df8d496f5806@b9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
IBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy than
liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
Is the spent battery material reprocessed or is the battery simply
recharged?
What is the projected price?
Bret Cahill
Please cite a URL or information source for this.
What does "mechanical energy" mean when talking about a battery or a
fuel?
What they are actually doing is working on a proposal to get funding
from DOE to start research into the possibility of developing a
whiz-bang battery.
http://beta.technologyreview.com/energy/22780/
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Thanks. It looks like a form of this lithium-air battery already exists so
the IBM-MIT effort is not starting at square one. If developed, it may
change everything, but has to be reasonably priced and safe. That's a tall
order but seems promising.
It's Li-air, UA. Wouldn't that theoretically be be up around 9.5 or so?Bret Cahill wrote:
IBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy than
liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
[snip crap]
Since this is a physical impossiblity, bullshit.
Density of energy generation/mass
----------------------------------
13) matter antimatter annihilation
12) nuclear fusion
11) nuclear fission
10) Radioisotope thermoelectric generator
9) Diesel internal combustion
8) kerosene internal combustion
7) gasoline internal combustion
6) lithium hydride battery
5) nickel metal hydride battery
4) lead acid battery
3) flywheel
2) capacitance
1) inductance
credulous idiot
Bret Cahill wrote:
IBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy than
liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
[snip crap]
Since this is a physical impossiblity, bullshit.
Density of energy generation/mass
----------------------------------
13) matter antimatter annihilation
12) nuclear fusion
11) nuclear fission
10) Radioisotope thermoelectric generator
9) Diesel internal combustion
8) kerosene internal combustion
7) gasoline internal combustion
6) lithium hydride battery
5) nickel metal hydride battery
4) lead acid battery
3) flywheel
2) capacitance
1) inductance
credulous idiot
--
Uncle Alhttp://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
I think TNT would be lower than air breathers, because it has to bringOn Jun 13, 5:17Â pm, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
Bret Cahill wrote:
IBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy
than liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
[snip crap]
Since this is a physical impossiblity, bullshit.
Density of energy generation/mass
----------------------------------
13) matter antimatter annihilation
12) nuclear fusion
11) nuclear fission
10) Radioisotope thermoelectric generator
 9) Diesel internal combustion
 8) kerosene internal combustion
 7) gasoline internal combustion
 6) lithium hydride battery
 5) nickel metal hydride battery
 4) lead acid battery
 3) flywheel
 2) capacitance
 1) inductance
credulous idiot
--
Uncle Alhttp://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
 (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most
 mammals)http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
Nice list, you might add TNT at 9.5,
Then there is air pressure storage
not sure where it fits(do you count the pressure vessel as part of the
mass?), and gravity storage. (I'm thinking of pumped water reservoirs.
) down at 0.5.
TNT's energy density of 4.2MJ/kg is less than a tenth of that of petrol,Nice list, you might add TNT at 9.5,
Very true.In sci.physics Bob Eld <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote:
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:ns4dg6-45f.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
In sci.physics Bob Eld <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9684b1cd-dbe5-4784-8034-df8d496f5806@b9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
IBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy
than
liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
Is the spent battery material reprocessed or is the battery simply
recharged?
What is the projected price?
Bret Cahill
Please cite a URL or information source for this.
What does "mechanical energy" mean when talking about a battery or a
fuel?
What they are actually doing is working on a proposal to get funding
from DOE to start research into the possibility of developing a
whiz-bang battery.
http://beta.technologyreview.com/energy/22780/
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Thanks. It looks like a form of this lithium-air battery already exists
so
the IBM-MIT effort is not starting at square one. If developed, it may
change everything, but has to be reasonably priced and safe. That's a
tall
order but seems promising.
Yeah, well there still is the inconvienient reality that there isn't
that much recoverable lithium on the planet.
That which does exist is mostly in South America and China, so the net
effect of making all cars electric would be to swap foreign oil imports
for foreign lithium imports until it runs out.
There is no such thing as bio-lithium.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
What makes you think this is a physical impossibility ?Bret Cahill wrote:
IBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy than
liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
[snip crap]
Since this is a physical impossiblity, bullshit.
Density of energy generation/mass
----------------------------------
13) matter antimatter annihilation
12) nuclear fusion
11) nuclear fission
10) Radioisotope thermoelectric generator
9) Diesel internal combustion
8) kerosene internal combustion
7) gasoline internal combustion
6) lithium hydride battery
5) nickel metal hydride battery
4) lead acid battery
3) flywheel
2) capacitance
1) inductance
credulous idiot
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1434In sci.physics Bob Eld <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote:
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:ns4dg6-45f.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
In sci.physics Bob Eld <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9684b1cd-dbe5-4784-8034-df8d496f5806@b9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
IBM and MIT announced a battery with a 40% more mechanical energy than
liquid fuel: 5 kW-hr/kg.
Is the spent battery material reprocessed or is the battery simply
recharged?
What is the projected price?
Bret Cahill
Please cite a URL or information source for this.
What does "mechanical energy" mean when talking about a battery or a
fuel?
What they are actually doing is working on a proposal to get funding
from DOE to start research into the possibility of developing a
whiz-bang battery.
http://beta.technologyreview.com/energy/22780/
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Thanks. It looks like a form of this lithium-air battery already exists so
the IBM-MIT effort is not starting at square one. If developed, it may
change everything, but has to be reasonably priced and safe. That's a tall
order but seems promising.
Yeah, well there still is the inconvienient reality that there isn't
that much recoverable lithium on the planet.
That which does exist is mostly in South America and China, so the net
effect of making all cars electric would be to swap foreign oil imports
for foreign lithium imports until it runs out.
There is no such thing as bio-lithium.
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1434
"Lithium in Abundance"
"Open Access Article Originally Published: April 15, 2008"
"As to the issue of American lithium resources, Evans pointed out that
a single geothermal well in southern California can produce enough
lithium to meet all of the world's current demand for lithium."
":He estimates it at 28.4 million tonnes of lithium, which is
equivalent to 150 million tonnes of lithium carbonate. Current world
demand is 16,000 tonnes."
@5kWh per kg of battery weight. One needs less than 10 kg of lithium
per EV, which can easily be recycled when the vehicle is junked.
1000 / 10 * 2.84e+7 tonns == 2.84 billion EVs
Oil is not a renewable fuel, while lithium is a reusable-recyclableIn sci.physics Bob Eld <nsmontassoc@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yeah, well there still is the inconvienient reality that there isn't
that much recoverable lithium on the planet.
That which does exist is mostly in South America and China, so the net
effect of making all cars electric would be to swap foreign oil imports
for foreign lithium imports until it runs out.
There is no such thing as bio-lithium.
Intersting, even if I doubt that 5 kWh/kg is an easy easy target to achieveRef: http://technologyreview.com/energy/22780/
IBM Research is beginning an ambitious project that it hopes will lead to
the commercialization of batteries that store 10 times as much energy as
today's within the next five years. The company will partner with U.S.
national labs to develop a promising but controversial technology that
uses energy-dense but highly flammable lithium metal to react with oxygen
in the air. The payoff, says the company, will be a lightweight, powerful,
and rechargeable battery for the electrical grid and the electrification
of transportation.
Lithium metal-air batteries can store a tremendous amount of energy--in
theory, more than 5,000 watt-hours per kilogram. That's more than
ten-times as much as today's high-performance lithium-ion batteries, and
more than another class of energy-storage devices: fuel cells. Instead of
containing a second reactant inside the cell, these batteries react with
oxygen in the air that's pulled in as needed, making them lightweight and
compact.
IBM is pursuing the risky technology instead of lithium-ion batteries
because it has the potential to reach high enough energy densities to
change the transportation system, says Chandrasekhar Narayan, manager of
science and technology at IBM's Almaden Research Center, in San Jose, CA.
"With all foreseeable developments, lithium-ion batteries are only going
to get about two times better than they are today," he says. "To really
make an impact on transportation and on the grid, you need higher energy
density than that." One of the project's goals, says Narayan, is a
lightweight 500-mile battery for a family car. The Chevy Volt can go 40
miles before using the gas tank, and Tesla Motors' Model S line can travel
up to 300 miles without a recharge.
One of the main challenges in making lithium metal-air batteries is that
"air isn't just oxygen," says Jeff Dahn, a professor of materials science
at Dalhousie University, in Nova Scotia. Where there's air there's
moisture, and "humidity is the death of lithium," says Dahn. When lithium
metal meets water, an explosive reaction ensues. These batteries will
require protective membranes that exclude water but let in oxygen, and are
stable over time.
IBM does not currently have battery research programs in place. However,
Narayan says that IBM has the expertise needed to tackle the science
problems. In addition to Oak Ridge, IBM will partner with Lawrence
Berkeley, Lawrence Livermore, Argonne, and Pacific Northwest national
labs. The company and its collaborators are currently working on a
proposal for funding from the U.S. Department of Energy under the Advanced
Research Projects Agency-Energy.
Research on lithium-metal batteries stalled about 20 years ago. In 1989,
Canadian company Moli Energy recalled its rechargeable lithium-metal
batteries, which used not air but a more traditional cathode, after one
caught fire; the incident led to legal action, and the company declared
bankruptcy. Soon after, Sony brought to market the first rechargeable
lithium-ion batteries, which were safer, and research on lithium-metal
electrodes slowed nearly to a halt. (After restructuring, Moli Energy
refocused its research efforts and is now selling lithium-ion batteries
under the name Molicel.) Only a handful of labs around the world,
including those at PolyPlus Battery, in Berkeley, CA, Japan's AIST, and
St. Andrews University, in Scotland, are currently working on lithium-air
batteries.
Safety problems with lithium-metal batteries can arise when they're
recharged. "When you charge and discharge, you have to electroplate and
strip the metal over and over again," says Dahn, who is not a contributor
to the IBM project. Over time, just as in a lithium-ion battery, the
lithium-metal surface becomes rough, which can lead to thermal runaway,
when the battery literally burns until all the reactants inside are used
up. But Narayan says that lithium-air batteries are inherently safer than
previously developed lithium-metal batteries as well as today's
lithium-ion batteries because only one of the reactants is contained in
the cell. "A lithium-air cell needs air from outside," says Narayan. "You
will never get a runaway reaction because air is limited."
PolyPlus Battery has been working on lithium metal-air technology for
about six years and has some dramatic evidence of the technology's
viability: floating among clownfish in an aquarium tank at the company's
headquarters, a lithium-metal battery pulls in oxygen from the salt water
to power a green LED. The company has also developed a prototype battery
that pulls oxygen from ambient air. But Steven Visco, founder and vice
president of research at the company, says that lithium metal-air
batteries are "still a young technology that's not ready to be
commercialized."
IBM's Narayan points to two remaining major problems with lithium
metal-air technology. First, the design of the cathode needs to be
optimized so that the lithium oxide that forms when oxygen is pulled
inside the battery won't block the oxygen intake channels. Second, better
catalysts are needed to drive the reverse reaction that recharges the
battery.
Narayan says that it won't be clear how much money and how much time the
project will take until about a year and half from now, after research has
begun. He estimates that the company will devote about five years to the
project. IBM will probably not make the batteries but will license the
technology to manufacturers.
moreover, lithium is quite easily reuseable/recyclable as a raw material"T. Keating" <tkusenet@ktcnslt.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:0sr935lia632n11takn2qlgbhrqjmmkh8a@4ax.com...
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1434
"Lithium in Abundance"
"Open Access Article Originally Published: April 15, 2008"
"As to the issue of American lithium resources, Evans pointed out that
a single geothermal well in southern California can produce enough
lithium to meet all of the world's current demand for lithium."
":He estimates it at 28.4 million tonnes of lithium, which is
equivalent to 150 million tonnes of lithium carbonate. Current world
demand is 16,000 tonnes."
I believe it, unfortunately no lithium EV sold, today! That 16,000 tonns
of demand is totally useless...
@5kWh per kg of battery weight. One needs less than 10 kg of lithium
per EV, which can easily be recycled when the vehicle is junked.
1000 / 10 * 2.84e+7 tonns == 2.84 billion EVs
5 kWh per kg of battery is not a credible number for the state of the art
of tecnology, we are still in the range of 0,1-0,2 kWh per kg at max. But
I'd tend to agree with you anyway, it takes about 50 grams of lithium per
kg of battery, so there is enough litium in the earth to build billions of
electric and plugin vehicles like GM's Volt (16 kWh for about 60 km of
range)