Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time...

[Jan Panteltje]

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6

 

[a a]

On Saturday, 15 October 2022 at 06:54:54 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6

#fake

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6

I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

A nerve fiber probably transmits multiple message bundles between each
occasional electrochemical refresh pulse. The messages might propagate
about the speed of sound, or even faster. The data bundles might in
fact be frequent and tiny, sent far more often than the gross
electrical refresh impulses. The packets and the refresh could be
fully asynchronous, and data packets cruise right through the slowly
moving refresh pulses.

Of course few-cell critters have complex behaviors and can learn, and
they don\'t have neurons. But they don\'t have to send data very far and
don\'t have to fill out tax forms.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 10:44:55 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6
I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

A nerve fiber probably transmits multiple message bundles between each
occasional electrochemical refresh pulse. The messages might propagate
about the speed of sound, or even faster. The data bundles might in
fact be frequent and tiny, sent far more often than the gross
electrical refresh impulses. The packets and the refresh could be
fully asynchronous, and data packets cruise right through the slowly
moving refresh pulses.

Of course few-cell critters have complex behaviors and can learn, and
they don\'t have neurons. But they don\'t have to send data very far and
don\'t have to fill out tax forms.

Doesn\'t work that way.

\"Synaptic transmission is the process at synapses by which a chemical signal (a transmitter) is released from one neuron and diffuses to other neurons or target cells where it generates a signal which excites, inhibits or modulates cellular activity.\"

\"By means of synaptic transmission, an electrical signal in one neuron passes from the terminal of its axon into another cell and starts in that cell an impulse having characteristics different from its own (Palay and Chan-Palay, 1976).\"

So you see it\'s way, way more than anything having to day with \"information\" bundles.

In summary:
:
An understanding of synaptic transmission is the key to understanding the basic operation of the nervous system at a cellular level. Without transmission, there is no direct communication between cells—there would be only individual isolated cells. The whole point of the nervous system is to control and coordinate body function and enable the body to respond to, and act on, the environment. Synaptic transmission is the key process in the integrative action of the nervous system.
:
This is the classic example of getting zillions of component cellular entities to act as a coordinated whole.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/synaptic-transmission

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 07:44:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<tsflkh1805insfkc4iiorl6v4i3blf6rj5@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS
0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6


I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

Look up neural nets software
A neuron is simulated by a connection with \'weights\' to other neurons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neuron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network

So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

The distances from eye and ear to to the related brain areas are not very big,
Our reaction time is measured in milli seconds...
I have once read that the dino went extinct because it would not notice a predator biting a piece of of its tail for about 4 seconds
due to the length of the nerves from end of tail to brain...
Don\'t know if that is true..

A nerve fiber probably transmits multiple message bundles between each
occasional electrochemical refresh pulse. The messages might propagate
about the speed of sound, or even faster. The data bundles might in
fact be frequent and tiny, sent far more often than the gross
electrical refresh impulses. The packets and the refresh could be
fully asynchronous, and data packets cruise right through the slowly
moving refresh pulses.

Local processing happens, say leg reflex etc, that is much faster.

Of course few-cell critters have complex behaviors and can learn, and
they don\'t have neurons. But they don\'t have to send data very far and
don\'t have to fill out tax forms.
No, few cell critters DO learn, as the weights between the neurons is changing with input.

But I proposed long ago, , reasoning:
\"If I was a brain call I would store memory in DNA (or RNA)\"
There have been recent indications pointing in that direction.

Long ago there was an experient where neurons in a petry dish flew a figh simulator:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6573-brain-cells-in-a-dish-fly-fighter-plane/
Year 2004




>

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 08:03:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 10:44:55 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6
I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

A nerve fiber probably transmits multiple message bundles between each
occasional electrochemical refresh pulse. The messages might propagate
about the speed of sound, or even faster. The data bundles might in
fact be frequent and tiny, sent far more often than the gross
electrical refresh impulses. The packets and the refresh could be
fully asynchronous, and data packets cruise right through the slowly
moving refresh pulses.

Of course few-cell critters have complex behaviors and can learn, and
they don\'t have neurons. But they don\'t have to send data very far and
don\'t have to fill out tax forms.

Doesn\'t work that way.

\"Synaptic transmission is the process at synapses by which a chemical signal (a transmitter) is released from one neuron and diffuses to other neurons or target cells where it generates a signal which excites, inhibits or modulates cellular activity.\"

\"By means of synaptic transmission, an electrical signal in one neuron passes from the terminal of its axon into another cell and starts in that cell an impulse having characteristics different from its own (Palay and Chan-Palay, 1976).\"

So you see it\'s way, way more than anything having to day with \"information\" bundles.

I was talking about long runs, toe to brain, data sent some distance
within a single nerve fiber. Prop delays of the gross electrical pulse
are roughly 50 m/s, maybe 40 milliseconds toe to brain.

1976 was a long time ago, and still nobody knows how our nervous
system works.

Part of my retina thing made me think of how extraordinary our optical
processing is. Images from two eyes (especially mine) are scaled
differently, distorted, twisted, constantly changing, and some brain
centers manipulate them in space and time and align the images, then
extract an extraordinary amount of data in milliseconds. Two fuzzy
images can be processed in to one good one.

In summary:
:
An understanding of synaptic transmission is the key to understanding the basic operation of the nervous system at a cellular level.

But nobody understands it.

Without transmission, there is no direct communication between cells—there would be only individual isolated cells. The whole point of the nervous system is to control and coordinate body function and enable the body to respond to, and act on, the environment. Synaptic transmission is the key process in the integrative action of the nervous system.
:
This is the classic example of getting zillions of component cellular entities to act as a coordinated whole.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/synaptic-transmission

Yikes, 1906 theory! Claude Shannon wasn\'t born yet!

Chemical diffusion sounds slow if you want to win at tennis.

I had a friend who was a pretty good tennis player. Good play is all
about english, ball spin. He could read the spin on a ball by looking
at the seams as it crossed the net coming at him, and adjust his
return strategy... in a fraction of a second.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 15:05:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 07:44:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
tsflkh1805insfkc4iiorl6v4i3blf6rj5@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS
0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6


I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

Look up neural nets software
A neuron is simulated by a connection with \'weights\' to other neurons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neuron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network





So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

The distances from eye and ear to to the related brain areas are not very big,
Our reaction time is measured in milli seconds...

And sound localization uses ear-to-ear time differences resolved to
nanoseconds.

Just moving or swallowing or blinking shakes up your brain density a
lot more than that.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 10:13:34 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<dcqlkh9o0c33hn1prkagga6h5tjch0utea@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 15:05:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 07:44:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
tsflkh1805insfkc4iiorl6v4i3blf6rj5@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2
FS
0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6


I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

Look up neural nets software
A neuron is simulated by a connection with \'weights\' to other neurons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neuron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network





So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

The distances from eye and ear to to the related brain areas are not very big,
Our reaction time is measured in milli seconds...

And sound localization uses ear-to-ear time differences resolved to
nanoseconds.

Well, you are aware that a _nano_ second (10E-9) stands for 1 GHz? (I hope) ;-)
Most audio frequencies are in the max few kHz range...

As to the eye, much processing is done locally before it is sent via the optical nerve.
There are a lot of scientific papers about that, very interesting stuff.
Google \"processing in retina\"

Just moving or swallowing or blinking shakes up your brain density a
lot more than that.

Look up inner ear workings

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 17:24:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 10:13:34 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
dcqlkh9o0c33hn1prkagga6h5tjch0utea@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 15:05:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 07:44:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
tsflkh1805insfkc4iiorl6v4i3blf6rj5@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2
FS
0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6


I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

Look up neural nets software
A neuron is simulated by a connection with \'weights\' to other neurons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neuron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network





So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

The distances from eye and ear to to the related brain areas are not very big,
Our reaction time is measured in milli seconds...

And sound localization uses ear-to-ear time differences resolved to
nanoseconds.

Well, you are aware that a _nano_ second (10E-9) stands for 1 GHz? (I hope) ;-)

I knew that!

>Most audio frequencies are in the max few kHz range...

Yes, but localization seems to involve nanosecond resolution, at least
in bats.

Imagine wings flapping, hearts beating, air turbulance, and
maintaining ns resolution - or even us resolution - between two ears.
With meters per second prop delays and millisecond logic elements.

 

[Joe Gwinn]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 11:22:21 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 17:24:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 10:13:34 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
dcqlkh9o0c33hn1prkagga6h5tjch0utea@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 15:05:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 07:44:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
tsflkh1805insfkc4iiorl6v4i3blf6rj5@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2
FS
0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6


I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

Look up neural nets software
A neuron is simulated by a connection with \'weights\' to other neurons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neuron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network





So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

The distances from eye and ear to to the related brain areas are not very big,
Our reaction time is measured in milli seconds...

And sound localization uses ear-to-ear time differences resolved to
nanoseconds.

Well, you are aware that a _nano_ second (10E-9) stands for 1 GHz? (I hope) ;-)

I knew that!

Most audio frequencies are in the max few kHz range...

Yes, but localization seems to involve nanosecond resolution, at least
in bats.

No. FM Bats can localize an insect flying out in the open to within
about one centimeter. This kind of bat uses a FM chirp signal, and
performs a form of pulse compression in neural tissue. The details
are known, but complex. There are books on the subject.

CW bats specialize in finding insects hiding in vegetation by use of
Doppler-based clutter cancellation of the obscuring echo from the
vegetation.

Imagine wings flapping, hearts beating, air turbulance, and
maintaining ns resolution - or even us resolution - between two ears.
With meters per second prop delays and millisecond logic elements.

The processing is basically analog, so no digital gates.


So bats (and some sea mammals) beat humans to chirp radar principles
by a few million years.

Joe Gwinn

 

[Joe Gwinn]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 07:44:43 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6


I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

They do just this, but in the form of a population code.
While no single neuron\'s output is all that precise or complex, the
average over a few thousand neurons doing the same thing is quite
precise, and robust against loss of many neurons.

There is also a lot of phase coding (phase relative to such as the
alpha or theta rhythms). There may also be random codes and
cross-correlation processing. It\'s very complex. Details still being
worked out.

So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

Fast but not complex. Typical speeds are about 100 meters per second
(one third of sound in air), so that\'s 20 ms for 2 meters.

A nerve fiber probably transmits multiple message bundles between each
occasional electrochemical refresh pulse. The messages might propagate
about the speed of sound, or even faster. The data bundles might in
fact be frequent and tiny, sent far more often than the gross
electrical refresh impulses. The packets and the refresh could be
fully asynchronous, and data packets cruise right through the slowly
moving refresh pulses.

It does not work that way at all. There are books.

Basically, individual speed is low and noisy, but there is massive
parallelism.

Of course few-cell critters have complex behaviors and can learn, and
they don\'t have neurons. But they don\'t have to send data very far and
don\'t have to fill out tax forms.

Yes, it\'s simpler. Their taxes are either 0% (escaped) or 100%
(eaten).

Joe Gwinn

 

[Ricky]

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 12:54:54 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6

Is there a big market for brain cells in a dish playing pong in real time? When will it be for sale on Amazon?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 10:44:55 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6
I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

A nerve fiber probably transmits multiple message bundles between each
occasional electrochemical refresh pulse. The messages might propagate
about the speed of sound, or even faster. The data bundles might in
fact be frequent and tiny, sent far more often than the gross
electrical refresh impulses. The packets and the refresh could be
fully asynchronous, and data packets cruise right through the slowly
moving refresh pulses.

Of course few-cell critters have complex behaviors and can learn, and
they don\'t have neurons. But they don\'t have to send data very far and
don\'t have to fill out tax forms.

Trying to draw any analogy between the functioning of a nervous system and anything mankind has invented, is rather pointless.

It\'s pretty clear that we have not begun to understand the apparent chaos in a nervous system and how it works to do something useful. I wonder how the pong playing cells \"see\" the game, and are rewarded? I think that is the hard part. The rest is letting the cells \"learn\".

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 11:08:58 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 07:44:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
tsflkh1805insfkc4...@4ax.com>:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS
0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6


I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.
Look up neural nets software
A neuron is simulated by a connection with \'weights\' to other neurons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neuron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network
So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.
The distances from eye and ear to to the related brain areas are not very big,
Our reaction time is measured in milli seconds...
I have once read that the dino went extinct because it would not notice a predator biting a piece of of its tail for about 4 seconds
due to the length of the nerves from end of tail to brain...
Don\'t know if that is true..

It would be true if the impulse required a round trip from the tail, to the brain and back to the tail. Just as we have interneurons that work like little reflex brains in our spinal cord, dinos likely had something similar along the length of their spines. Our spinal \"brains\" are responsible for jerking our hands back when we get burnt. Likewise, it is entirely possible the dinos would sense the pain in their spine and the tail would twitch reflexively.

There is evidence more sophisticated \"thinking\" is done in the spine, such as understanding 3d space. This would help explain how athletes can perform some feats requiring such precision in space and time.

A nerve fiber probably transmits multiple message bundles between each
occasional electrochemical refresh pulse. The messages might propagate
about the speed of sound, or even faster. The data bundles might in
fact be frequent and tiny, sent far more often than the gross
electrical refresh impulses. The packets and the refresh could be
fully asynchronous, and data packets cruise right through the slowly
moving refresh pulses.
Local processing happens, say leg reflex etc, that is much faster.
Of course few-cell critters have complex behaviors and can learn, and
they don\'t have neurons. But they don\'t have to send data very far and
don\'t have to fill out tax forms.
No, few cell critters DO learn, as the weights between the neurons is changing with input.

But I proposed long ago, , reasoning:
\"If I was a brain call I would store memory in DNA (or RNA)\"
There have been recent indications pointing in that direction.

That\'s a tough one to imagine working at a realistic level. DNA is used as a master blueprint for constructing proteins. Has anyone seen any chemistry that would support the storage idea? Don\'t say, \"Yes, but I forget where\". lol

Long ago there was an experient where neurons in a petry dish flew a figh simulator:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6573-brain-cells-in-a-dish-fly-fighter-plane/
Year 2004

I remember that flight. Anyone live through the crash?

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 1:28:08 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 10:13:34 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
dcqlkh9o0c33hn1pr...@4ax.com>:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 15:05:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 07:44:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
tsflkh1805insfkc4...@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2
FS
0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6


I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

Look up neural nets software
A neuron is simulated by a connection with \'weights\' to other neurons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neuron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network





So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

The distances from eye and ear to to the related brain areas are not very big,
Our reaction time is measured in milli seconds...

And sound localization uses ear-to-ear time differences resolved to
nanoseconds.
Well, you are aware that a _nano_ second (10E-9) stands for 1 GHz? (I hope) ;-)
Most audio frequencies are in the max few kHz range...

As to the eye, much processing is done locally before it is sent via the optical nerve.
There are a lot of scientific papers about that, very interesting stuff.
Google \"processing in retina\"

I had a book called, \"Mach Bands\", or maybe that was a chapter in the book. It discussed optical illusions and how they reveal the structure of the vision apparatus. It might be this one. It\'s in another state right now.

https://gprivate.com/61cta

The Google URL was insanely long and I don\'t see where Google offers a shortened link.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 19:30:57 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 07:44:43 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6


I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

They do just this, but in the form of a population code.
While no single neuron\'s output is all that precise or complex, the
average over a few thousand neurons doing the same thing is quite
precise, and robust against loss of many neurons.

There is also a lot of phase coding (phase relative to such as the
alpha or theta rhythms). There may also be random codes and
cross-correlation processing. It\'s very complex. Details still being
worked out.


So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

Fast but not complex. Typical speeds are about 100 meters per second
(one third of sound in air), so that\'s 20 ms for 2 meters.


A nerve fiber probably transmits multiple message bundles between each
occasional electrochemical refresh pulse. The messages might propagate
about the speed of sound, or even faster. The data bundles might in
fact be frequent and tiny, sent far more often than the gross
electrical refresh impulses. The packets and the refresh could be
fully asynchronous, and data packets cruise right through the slowly
moving refresh pulses.

It does not work that way at all. There are books.

Things being in books doesn\'t make them right. Nobody knows how a
brain works.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 1:07:18 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 08:03:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 10:44:55 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6
I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

A nerve fiber probably transmits multiple message bundles between each
occasional electrochemical refresh pulse. The messages might propagate
about the speed of sound, or even faster. The data bundles might in
fact be frequent and tiny, sent far more often than the gross
electrical refresh impulses. The packets and the refresh could be
fully asynchronous, and data packets cruise right through the slowly
moving refresh pulses.

Of course few-cell critters have complex behaviors and can learn, and
they don\'t have neurons. But they don\'t have to send data very far and
don\'t have to fill out tax forms.

Doesn\'t work that way.

\"Synaptic transmission is the process at synapses by which a chemical signal (a transmitter) is released from one neuron and diffuses to other neurons or target cells where it generates a signal which excites, inhibits or modulates cellular activity.\"

\"By means of synaptic transmission, an electrical signal in one neuron passes from the terminal of its axon into another cell and starts in that cell an impulse having characteristics different from its own (Palay and Chan-Palay, 1976).\"

So you see it\'s way, way more than anything having to day with \"information\" bundles.
I was talking about long runs, toe to brain, data sent some distance
within a single nerve fiber. Prop delays of the gross electrical pulse
are roughly 50 m/s, maybe 40 milliseconds toe to brain.

1976 was a long time ago, and still nobody knows how our nervous
system works.

Part of my retina thing made me think of how extraordinary our optical
processing is. Images from two eyes (especially mine) are scaled
differently, distorted, twisted, constantly changing, and some brain
centers manipulate them in space and time and align the images, then
extract an extraordinary amount of data in milliseconds. Two fuzzy
images can be processed in to one good one.

In summary:
:
An understanding of synaptic transmission is the key to understanding the basic operation of the nervous system at a cellular level.
But nobody understands it.


Without transmission, there is no direct communication between cells葉here would be only individual isolated cells. The whole point of the nervous system is to control and coordinate body function and enable the body to respond to, and act on, the environment. Synaptic transmission is the key process in the integrative action of the nervous system.
:
This is the classic example of getting zillions of component cellular entities to act as a coordinated whole.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/synaptic-transmission


Yikes, 1906 theory! Claude Shannon wasn\'t born yet!

Chemical diffusion sounds slow if you want to win at tennis.

I had a friend who was a pretty good tennis player. Good play is all
about english, ball spin. He could read the spin on a ball by looking
at the seams as it crossed the net coming at him, and adjust his
return strategy... in a fraction of a second.

Just saw one crazy statistic that there is 500 km of nerve fiber in the brain- about the distance to the moon. There\'s the moon again- do we have a correlation between this moon-fiber distance and mood-sanity changes with the moon?

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 20:20:17 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 1:07:18 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 08:03:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, October 15, 2022 at 10:44:55 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6
I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

A nerve fiber probably transmits multiple message bundles between each
occasional electrochemical refresh pulse. The messages might propagate
about the speed of sound, or even faster. The data bundles might in
fact be frequent and tiny, sent far more often than the gross
electrical refresh impulses. The packets and the refresh could be
fully asynchronous, and data packets cruise right through the slowly
moving refresh pulses.

Of course few-cell critters have complex behaviors and can learn, and
they don\'t have neurons. But they don\'t have to send data very far and
don\'t have to fill out tax forms.

Doesn\'t work that way.

\"Synaptic transmission is the process at synapses by which a chemical signal (a transmitter) is released from one neuron and diffuses to other neurons or target cells where it generates a signal which excites, inhibits or modulates cellular activity.\"

\"By means of synaptic transmission, an electrical signal in one neuron passes from the terminal of its axon into another cell and starts in that cell an impulse having characteristics different from its own (Palay and Chan-Palay, 1976).\"

So you see it\'s way, way more than anything having to day with \"information\" bundles.
I was talking about long runs, toe to brain, data sent some distance
within a single nerve fiber. Prop delays of the gross electrical pulse
are roughly 50 m/s, maybe 40 milliseconds toe to brain.

1976 was a long time ago, and still nobody knows how our nervous
system works.

Part of my retina thing made me think of how extraordinary our optical
processing is. Images from two eyes (especially mine) are scaled
differently, distorted, twisted, constantly changing, and some brain
centers manipulate them in space and time and align the images, then
extract an extraordinary amount of data in milliseconds. Two fuzzy
images can be processed in to one good one.

In summary:
:
An understanding of synaptic transmission is the key to understanding the basic operation of the nervous system at a cellular level.
But nobody understands it.


Without transmission, there is no direct communication between cells?here would be only individual isolated cells. The whole point of the nervous system is to control and coordinate body function and enable the body to respond to, and act on, the environment. Synaptic transmission is the key process in the integrative action of the nervous system.
:
This is the classic example of getting zillions of component cellular entities to act as a coordinated whole.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/synaptic-transmission


Yikes, 1906 theory! Claude Shannon wasn\'t born yet!

Chemical diffusion sounds slow if you want to win at tennis.

I had a friend who was a pretty good tennis player. Good play is all
about english, ball spin. He could read the spin on a ball by looking
at the seams as it crossed the net coming at him, and adjust his
return strategy... in a fraction of a second.

Just saw one crazy statistic that there is 500 km of nerve fiber in the brain- about the distance to the moon. There\'s the moon again- do we have a correlation between this moon-fiber distance and mood-sanity changes with the moon?

I\'m trying to connect a clock to eight NC7SV74 Tiny flipflops. If I
lump them together the capacitance slows the driver down too much. If
I distribute their capacitance along a transmission line, the edge
hits the last one too late.

I\'m out of time, connecting eight flops at the speed of light.

Imagine connecting 86 billion neurons with chemical things that
propagate at about 50 meters per second.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 11:22:21 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
<m9ulkh53e7hs41uqenuh89dga4hg64hksr@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 17:24:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 10:13:34 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
dcqlkh9o0c33hn1prkagga6h5tjch0utea@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 15:05:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sat, 15 Oct 2022 07:44:43 -0700) it happened John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
tsflkh1805insfkc4iiorl6v4i3blf6rj5@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii
%2
FS
0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6


I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

Look up neural nets software
A neuron is simulated by a connection with \'weights\' to other neurons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neuron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network





So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

The distances from eye and ear to to the related brain areas are not very big,
Our reaction time is measured in milli seconds...

And sound localization uses ear-to-ear time differences resolved to
nanoseconds.

Well, you are aware that a _nano_ second (10E-9) stands for 1 GHz? (I hope) ;-)

I knew that!

Most audio frequencies are in the max few kHz range...

Yes, but localization seems to involve nanosecond resolution, at least
in bats.

Imagine wings flapping, hearts beating, air turbulance, and
maintaining ns resolution - or even us resolution - between two ears.
With meters per second prop delays and millisecond logic elements.

Bats use sound just a bit above what we can hear, from 9 kHz (we can hear) to about 200 kHz.
you can buy a \'bat detector\' that mixes it down to audible range so you can hear the bats.
The reflected delay from an external object is a very specific pattern that is easily
told apart from \'internal\' noise.
Would not surprise me a bit if bats also used radar like frequency sweeps, never
really listened to bats myself, but did a lot of ultrasonic experiments at about 40 kHz.
Not any bats around here, else I would have tested that

 

[Joe Gwinn]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 20:14:08 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 19:30:57 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 07:44:43 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 04:51:28 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Human brain cells in a dish learn to play Pong in real time
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/10/221012132528.htm
is actually about adaptation... and what we are...

https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(22)00806-6?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627322008066%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

https://www.cell.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0896-6273%2822%2900806-6


I was just thinking about neurons and signal processing. I had some
recent retina damage and an amazing repair, so it\'s on my mind.

My thought is that the electrical impulses that can be easily measured
in nerve cells can\'t convey much information. They are slow and gross
and their prop delays will be erratic so they can\'t use some sort of
time-of-pulse encoding to send information.

They do just this, but in the form of a population code.
While no single neuron\'s output is all that precise or complex, the
average over a few thousand neurons doing the same thing is quite
precise, and robust against loss of many neurons.

There is also a lot of phase coding (phase relative to such as the
alpha or theta rhythms). There may also be random codes and
cross-correlation processing. It\'s very complex. Details still being
worked out.


So a nerve pulse from your toe to your brain is probably a fast-moving
complex packet of information, a traveling bundle of chemicals. I
suspect that the gross electrical pulse actually follows the data
packet, slowly, sort of a refresh/reset to prepare the channel for the
next data packet. The info packet would travel much faster,
practically has to since you can localize sounds and play ping-pong.

Fast but not complex. Typical speeds are about 100 meters per second
(one third of sound in air), so that\'s 20 ms for 2 meters.


A nerve fiber probably transmits multiple message bundles between each
occasional electrochemical refresh pulse. The messages might propagate
about the speed of sound, or even faster. The data bundles might in
fact be frequent and tiny, sent far more often than the gross
electrical refresh impulses. The packets and the refresh could be
fully asynchronous, and data packets cruise right through the slowly
moving refresh pulses.

It does not work that way at all. There are books.


Things being in books doesn\'t make them right.

True. The point is that it is pretty complicated and so I cannot
explain it here. Nor do the books all agree - they document this or
that researcher\'s theory of what\'s going on, and the case for that
view, precisely so others can critique it.


> Nobody knows how a brain works.

Yes and no. There are many areas that are fairly well understood, and
others that are complete mysteries. So far...

Joe Gwinn