Huge savnings for all, collaborative ASIC

[Klaus Kragelund]

Just a good idea, my humble opinion:

ASIC is expensive, and the chip companies earn good profits on selling commodity chips

Commodity chips: opamps, regulators, diodes, transceivers etc

If we go together and do some designs, splitting the NRE, we could buy chips at only production cost, maybe half price of normal purchase price

So the typical high voltage buck converter, the LDO, the fast opamp, all at premium prices

Any comments, viable?

Cheers

Klaus

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 2:20:57 PM UTC-5, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

Just a good idea, my humble opinion:

ASIC is expensive, and the chip companies earn good profits on selling commodity chips

Commodity chips: opamps, regulators, diodes, transceivers etc

If we go together and do some designs, splitting the NRE, we could buy chips at only production cost, maybe half price of normal purchase price

So the typical high voltage buck converter, the LDO, the fast opamp, all at premium prices

Any comments, viable?

How do you even the demand across the different designs? If one guy ends up wanting a bunch of chips because of unexpected demand for the improved product and other participants order no chips because they don't need so many or they didn't work???

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 10:18:53 AM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:

On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 2:20:57 PM UTC-5, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Just a good idea, my humble opinion:

ASIC is expensive, and the chip companies earn good profits on selling commodity chips

Commodity chips: opamps, regulators, diodes, transceivers etc

If we go together and do some designs, splitting the NRE, we could buy chips at only production cost, maybe half price of normal purchase price

So the typical high voltage buck converter, the LDO, the fast opamp, all at premium prices

Any comments, viable?

How do you even the demand across the different designs? If one guy ends up wanting a bunch of chips because of unexpected demand for the improved product and other participants order no chips because they don't need so many or they didn't work???

That's what collaborative is about. If a bunch of people all think that they can sell a particular chip, some of them are going to be right, and if the group is big enough one of them may sell enough to carry everybody else.

The classic model of chip development had one large scale manufacturer talking to a semiconductor company and buying a whole production batch, and the semiconductor company finding enough other customers to make more batches.

The approach suggested gets the other customers in earlier.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

Who is going to do the design? That NRE has to go to a person who is going to get it right the first time.....which is unlikely unless you have the infrastructure of a big company that you are trying to beat. I would not be looking for here to make your dreams come true.

 

[bitrex]

On 2/25/20 8:02 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:

Klaus Kragelund wrote...

Just a good idea, my humble opinion: ASIC is expensive,
and the chip companies earn good profits on selling
commodity chips: opamps, regulators, diodes, ...

Some IC houses make very good designs, and are quite
affordable. For example: 3Peak, purchase from LCSC.
TP09 dual 6MHz opamp, 400uV Vos, 6 cents, quad 10 cents.

I just got some of these by courier, 3 days from Shenzen to the likely
much more Third World-looking DHL service point in Pawtucket, RI.

<https://lcsc.com/product-detail/General-Purpose-Amplifiers_3PEAK-TP10-2-SR_C130325.html>

A small warehouse by the train tracks with three tractor-trailer bays,
and two dented yellow trucks compose the DHL infrastructure for all of
Rhode Island I think.

 

[bitrex]

On 2/25/20 8:00 PM, bitrex wrote:

On 2/25/20 7:47 PM, bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote:
Who is going to do the design? That NRE has to go to a person who is
going to get it right the first time.....which is unlikely unless you
have the infrastructure of a big company that you are trying to beat.
I would not be looking for here to make your dreams come true.


I think mixed-signal OTP chips like these Dialog "GreenPAK" arrays are
going to make a number of the proposed applications hard to justify
except in truly enormous quantity. The configuration software is easy
and fun to use, drag-n-drop more or less.

http://www.silego.com/uploads/Products/product_606/details/AN-1187%20High%20Efficiency%20Adjustable%20Buck%20Converter.pdf

I think a more reasonable goal for a "collaborative project" for the
group if that's what someone want to do would be to come up with
mixed-signal "programs" ready-to-run that could be used for some
purposes which are needed but aren't available at reasonable cost or
have problematic implementations.

I can't think of a reason off the top of my head why there'd need to be
a bespoke SED buck converter controller design that could be loaded into
chips in quantities of thousands instead of 100ks or if that would be
any cheaper than some other option but who knows.

 

[Winfield Hill]

Klaus Kragelund wrote...

Just a good idea, my humble opinion: ASIC is expensive,
and the chip companies earn good profits on selling
commodity chips: opamps, regulators, diodes, ...

Some IC houses make very good designs, and are quite
affordable. For example: 3Peak, purchase from LCSC.
TP09 dual 6MHz opamp, 400uV Vos, 6 cents, quad 10 cents.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[bitrex]

On 2/25/20 7:47 PM, bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote:

Who is going to do the design? That NRE has to go to a person who is going to get it right the first time.....which is unlikely unless you have the infrastructure of a big company that you are trying to beat. I would not be looking for here to make your dreams come true.

I think mixed-signal OTP chips like these Dialog "GreenPAK" arrays are
going to make a number of the proposed applications hard to justify
except in truly enormous quantity. The configuration software is easy
and fun to use, drag-n-drop more or less.

<http://www.silego.com/uploads/Products/product_606/details/AN-1187%20High%20Efficiency%20Adjustable%20Buck%20Converter.pdf>

 

On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 5:09:54 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:

On 2/25/20 8:02 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:
Klaus Kragelund wrote...

Just a good idea, my humble opinion: ASIC is expensive,
and the chip companies earn good profits on selling
commodity chips: opamps, regulators, diodes, ...

Some IC houses make very good designs, and are quite
affordable. For example: 3Peak, purchase from LCSC.
TP09 dual 6MHz opamp, 400uV Vos, 6 cents, quad 10 cents.



I just got some of these by courier, 3 days from Shenzen to the likely
much more Third World-looking DHL service point in Pawtucket, RI.

https://lcsc.com/product-detail/General-Purpose-Amplifiers_3PEAK-TP10-2-SR_C130325.html

A small warehouse by the train tracks with three tractor-trailer bays,
and two dented yellow trucks compose the DHL infrastructure for all of
Rhode Island I think.

You are lucky. I am still waiting for some stuffs i ordered a month ago.

 

[bitrex]

On 2/25/20 9:01 PM, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 5:09:54 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
On 2/25/20 8:02 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:
Klaus Kragelund wrote...

Just a good idea, my humble opinion: ASIC is expensive,
and the chip companies earn good profits on selling
commodity chips: opamps, regulators, diodes, ...

Some IC houses make very good designs, and are quite
affordable. For example: 3Peak, purchase from LCSC.
TP09 dual 6MHz opamp, 400uV Vos, 6 cents, quad 10 cents.



I just got some of these by courier, 3 days from Shenzen to the likely
much more Third World-looking DHL service point in Pawtucket, RI.

https://lcsc.com/product-detail/General-Purpose-Amplifiers_3PEAK-TP10-2-SR_C130325.html

A small warehouse by the train tracks with three tractor-trailer bays,
and two dented yellow trucks compose the DHL infrastructure for all of
Rhode Island I think.

You are lucky. I am still waiting for some stuffs i ordered a month ago.

Unfortunately having worked sales at some Internet retailers many years
back I came to understand that "in stock" is often bullshit, like what
didn't we have "in stock."

 

[Winfield Hill]

tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote...

max output swing 5/15mV. Kinda low for an opamp.

That means within 5mV of the rails, 15mV worst case.
And no more than 1V at 50mA loads, not bad at all.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Winfield Hill]

bitrex wrote...

edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:

You are lucky. I am still waiting for some stuffs i ordered a month ago.

Unfortunately having worked sales at some Internet retailers many years
back I came to understand that "in stock" is often bullshit, like what
didn't we have "in stock."

That's why you order from LCSC and specify DHL.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

On Wednesday, 26 February 2020 01:09:54 UTC, bitrex wrote:

On 2/25/20 8:02 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:
Klaus Kragelund wrote...

Just a good idea, my humble opinion: ASIC is expensive,
and the chip companies earn good profits on selling
commodity chips: opamps, regulators, diodes, ...

Some IC houses make very good designs, and are quite
affordable. For example: 3Peak, purchase from LCSC.
TP09 dual 6MHz opamp, 400uV Vos, 6 cents, quad 10 cents.



I just got some of these by courier, 3 days from Shenzen to the likely
much more Third World-looking DHL service point in Pawtucket, RI.

https://lcsc.com/product-detail/General-Purpose-Amplifiers_3PEAK-TP10-2-SR_C130325.html

A small warehouse by the train tracks with three tractor-trailer bays,
and two dented yellow trucks compose the DHL infrastructure for all of
Rhode Island I think.

max output swing 5/15mV. Kinda low for an opamp.

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 2:02:56 AM UTC+1, Winfield Hill wrote:

Klaus Kragelund wrote...

Just a good idea, my humble opinion: ASIC is expensive,
and the chip companies earn good profits on selling
commodity chips: opamps, regulators, diodes, ...

Some IC houses make very good designs, and are quite
affordable. For example: 3Peak, purchase from LCSC.
TP09 dual 6MHz opamp, 400uV Vos, 6 cents, quad 10 cents.

Yes, funny about LCSC. You wonder how it can be done that cheap. My guess is that the profit margins simply are high on western stuff, with all those FAEs running around etc

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 12:18:53 AM UTC+1, Rick C wrote:

On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 2:20:57 PM UTC-5, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Just a good idea, my humble opinion:

ASIC is expensive, and the chip companies earn good profits on selling commodity chips

Commodity chips: opamps, regulators, diodes, transceivers etc

If we go together and do some designs, splitting the NRE, we could buy chips at only production cost, maybe half price of normal purchase price

So the typical high voltage buck converter, the LDO, the fast opamp, all at premium prices

Any comments, viable?


How do you even the demand across the different designs? If one guy ends up wanting a bunch of chips because of unexpected demand for the improved product and other participants order no chips because they don't need so many or they didn't work???

This is meant for serious firms, so ordering in the 100k+ quantity. So the idea would be to make a deal with the biggest non-competing firms. If the NRE is 300k USD for a relatively complex design, then it would be split evenly. You will then get the rights to buy the component at factory cost

If one company then quits, they have paid the NRE and that doesn't matter much since wafers are paid per lot, not annual volume

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 1:47:23 AM UTC+1, bule...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
> Who is going to do the design? That NRE has to go to a person who is going to get it right the first time.....which is unlikely unless you have the infrastructure of a big company that you are trying to beat. I would not be looking for here to make your dreams come true.

The desing is done by consultanty firm specializing in ASICs (they get it right first time)

No need for big infrastructure, the wafer fab broker can handle the infrastructure at a minimum overhead

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 2:06:05 AM UTC+1, bitrex wrote:

On 2/25/20 8:00 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 2/25/20 7:47 PM, bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote:
Who is going to do the design? That NRE has to go to a person who is
going to get it right the first time.....which is unlikely unless you
have the infrastructure of a big company that you are trying to beat.
I would not be looking for here to make your dreams come true.


I think mixed-signal OTP chips like these Dialog "GreenPAK" arrays are
going to make a number of the proposed applications hard to justify
except in truly enormous quantity. The configuration software is easy
and fun to use, drag-n-drop more or less.

http://www.silego.com/uploads/Products/product_606/details/AN-1187%20High%20Efficiency%20Adjustable%20Buck%20Converter.pdf

I think a more reasonable goal for a "collaborative project" for the
group if that's what someone want to do would be to come up with
mixed-signal "programs" ready-to-run that could be used for some
purposes which are needed but aren't available at reasonable cost or
have problematic implementations.

I can't think of a reason off the top of my head why there'd need to be
a bespoke SED buck converter controller design that could be loaded into
chips in quantities of thousands instead of 100ks or if that would be
any cheaper than some other option but who knows.

Maybe I did not come out clear, it was not meant for the SED users. It's for the big players

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 3:45:36 AM UTC+1, bitrex wrote:

On 2/25/20 9:01 PM, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 5:09:54 PM UTC-8, bitrex wrote:
On 2/25/20 8:02 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:
Klaus Kragelund wrote...

Just a good idea, my humble opinion: ASIC is expensive,
and the chip companies earn good profits on selling
commodity chips: opamps, regulators, diodes, ...

Some IC houses make very good designs, and are quite
affordable. For example: 3Peak, purchase from LCSC.
TP09 dual 6MHz opamp, 400uV Vos, 6 cents, quad 10 cents.



I just got some of these by courier, 3 days from Shenzen to the likely
much more Third World-looking DHL service point in Pawtucket, RI.

https://lcsc.com/product-detail/General-Purpose-Amplifiers_3PEAK-TP10-2-SR_C130325.html

A small warehouse by the train tracks with three tractor-trailer bays,
and two dented yellow trucks compose the DHL infrastructure for all of
Rhode Island I think.

You are lucky. I am still waiting for some stuffs i ordered a month ago.


Unfortunately having worked sales at some Internet retailers many years
back I came to understand that "in stock" is often bullshit, like what
didn't we have "in stock."

They can't ship since no planes are entering china and local post service is suspended also

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 2:00:41 AM UTC+1, bitrex wrote:

On 2/25/20 7:47 PM, bulegoge@columbus.rr.com wrote:
Who is going to do the design? That NRE has to go to a person who is going to get it right the first time.....which is unlikely unless you have the infrastructure of a big company that you are trying to beat. I would not be looking for here to make your dreams come true.


I think mixed-signal OTP chips like these Dialog "GreenPAK" arrays are
going to make a number of the proposed applications hard to justify
except in truly enormous quantity. The configuration software is easy
and fun to use, drag-n-drop more or less.

http://www.silego.com/uploads/Products/product_606/details/AN-1187%20High%20Efficiency%20Adjustable%20Buck%20Converter.pdf

Some designs are so optimized from the manufactor side, or they have special process that I cannot get hold off, so in those parts it does not make sense

For example for a fast opamp, it makes a lot of good sense. They sell it at high price, since they can

 

[bitrex]

On 2/26/20 9:39 AM, Winfield Hill wrote:

tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote...

max output swing 5/15mV. Kinda low for an opamp.

That means within 5mV of the rails, 15mV worst case.
And no more than 1V at 50mA loads, not bad at all.

Should work nicely with these serial 16 bit DACs:

<https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Digital-To-Analog-Converters-DACs_TM-Shenzhen-Titan-Micro-Elec-TM8211_C92003.html>

a complete stereo DAC subsystem for under 25 cent in small quantity, cool.