HP LaserJet 5L is streaking, how to 'clean' up?

[Robert Macy]

Have an old HP LaserJet 5L that is streaking on the page.
The streaks are horizontal [perpendicular] to the paper path.

At first, I thought this was happening as the printer cartridge was
running out, but upon putting in another one and only getting 1 clean
page, the printer is right back to streaking.

Anybody know what it takes to clean?

Don't say, buy a new one. Two reasons: this one "works" and anybody
that knows me knows better than to say 'go buy something else'

Also, I have to only put one sheet of paper in the paper feed, else
ALL the paper goes through at once.

Regards,
Robert

 

[Rich Webb]

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 16:42:55 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
<robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

Have an old HP LaserJet 5L that is streaking on the page.
The streaks are horizontal [perpendicular] to the paper path.

At first, I thought this was happening as the printer cartridge was
running out, but upon putting in another one and only getting 1 clean
page, the printer is right back to streaking.

Anybody know what it takes to clean?

Try the s.e.r FAQ over at http://www.repairfaq.org/. Might give you a
few things to try but please don't blame me if you spend several hours
browsing around there and don't get any sleep tonight. ;-)

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 26/06/2011 9:42 AM, Robert Macy wrote:

Also, I have to only put one sheet of paper in the paper feed, else
ALL the paper goes through at once.

When my 5L started feeding multiple pages, I took it to an HP authorised
service place, and they had to install a replacement pick-feeder (sp?),
at some non-negligible cost of parts. At the time it was marginally
worthwhile compared with buying a new printer. I doubt it would be now.
Also, a few years later, the 5L just quit.

I seem to remember that the printer had (unusually) defeated my attempts
to figure out how it comes to pieces.

Sylvia.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 16:42:55 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
<robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

Have an old HP LaserJet 5L that is streaking on the page.
The streaks are horizontal [perpendicular] to the paper path.

At first, I thought this was happening as the printer cartridge was
running out, but upon putting in another one and only getting 1 clean
page, the printer is right back to streaking.

Anybody know what it takes to clean?

Don't say, buy a new one. Two reasons: this one "works" and anybody
that knows me knows better than to say 'go buy something else'

Also, I have to only put one sheet of paper in the paper feed, else
ALL the paper goes through at once.

Regards,
Robert

Which side of the paper? The printed size or the back?

The 5L and 6L are not the best printers. After a while, they do try
to feed more than one page at a time. There are replacement kits for
fixing this on eBay and elsewhere:
<http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=5L+paper+jam>
Do *NOT* buy the abomination HP devised to fix the problem (PN
5969-8695). They're easier to install, but don't work very well. If
you sent your printer to HP for repair, that's what you received.

Gray smears, on the printed size of the page, perpendicular to the
paper path, are usually caused by the toner cartridge being left in
the sun, where the selenium drum has received a sunburn. It can't be
fixed except to replace the cartridge. Measure the distance between
the smears. If it happens to equal the circumference of the drum in
the toner cartridge, there's the problem.

However, since you tested two cartridges, it's unlikely that both
would have the same problem. Another possible source of streaking is
a toner clogged transfer roller RF5-1534 (which is usually included in
the rebuild kit). This usually makes smudges on the back side of the
page, but if saturated with toner, can also dump some on the printed
side:
<http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=5L+maintenance>
If the vertical spacing between the smudges is roughly equal to the
transfer roller circumference, there's the problem.

Another possible source of smudges is toner encrusted on the rubber
feed roller inside the fuser assembly. This is difficult to see
without tearing the printer apart. This usually makes smudges on the
back of the page.

For better advice and some parts, see:
<http://www.FixYourOwnPrinter.com>
<http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/forums>
<http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/search/forums?q=5L>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 26/06/2011 1:10 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

The 5L and 6L are not the best printers. After a while, they do try
to feed more than one page at a time. There are replacement kits for
fixing this on eBay and elsewhere:
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=5L+paper+jam
Do *NOT* buy the abomination HP devised to fix the problem (PN
5969-8695). They're easier to install, but don't work very well. If
you sent your printer to HP for repair, that's what you received.

Presumably it's what I got then.

Oh well, my HP1022 is much faster.

Sylvia.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 12:08:16 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

It might be a
faulty corona discharge wire/connection...

Slight correction. The HP LaserJet 5L does NOT use a corona wire. It
has a "charge roller" inside the toner cart which does the same thing
as a corona wire (apply a charge onto the drum, and later switch to AC
to remove any residual charge).

A picture is worth 1000 Google searches:
<http://www.google.com/search?q=charge+roller&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch>


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 08:13:24 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
<robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

Google had not provided access
to the usenet groups, for some unknown reason, until now.

I help maintain a few Google Groups mailing list. Same problem there.
Basically, they stopped forwarding messages about 3 days ago.
Meanwhile, I'm enjoying the time off from not having to clean up the
mess left by users. Some day, they'll learn the difference between
reply to list and reply to sender.

Again, the symptom: The streaks were only on the print side, well
sometimes backside too.

Back side could be crud on the rubber pressure roller in the fuser
roller assembly. This is difficult to see and clean without tearing
apart the fuser assembly. It can also be toner all over the transfer
roller, which is directly under the toner cartridge drum. Don't touch
this with your fingers as any grease will cause toner to stick to the
foam roller. What you need is a rebuild kit, which includes the
transfer roller.
<http://cgi.ebay.com/220345718320>

A strip on the printed side can be anything in the paper path that's
encrusted with toner. If it's dead center, it's the rubber feed
roller. It can also be the toner cartridge or encrusted toner on the
fuser heater surface.

Then it started streaking on the print side also.

Ok. I decode this as starting on the back, and then becoming a
problem on the print side. It usually works the other way around, but
if you have a mess of toner splattered all over the guts, it might get
stuck on the rubber pressure roller in the fuser, before it migrates
elsewhere.

The
treaks appeared to be from a fairly small diameter roller. Dark bars,
not necessarily a repeated pattern, but at least every 3/8 to 1/2
inch.

If they don't match any of the rollers, then it's a blob of toner that
has been spread out by the pressure rollers.

So based upon excellent suggestion, I wiped everything I could get at
from the opening of cartridge access with water.

Not my suggestion. Wiping just moves the toner around. You also
can't see it very well with all that black plastic. The right way is
to blow it out with compressed air. The tiny cans of compressed air
don't do well with printers. I use an air compressor (with a water
filter) and blow gun.

Hint: Some toner is magnetic can be collected with a magnet. However,
the 5L toner isn't so don't bother.

However, if you've been running the printer with toner all over the
guts, you probably have some melted toner in odd places near where
things get hot. Pull the fuser and clean it out with a plastic or
wood scraper.

Tremendous amount of black toner came out.

Yech. There's your problem. Well, not exactly. It's not the toner
that came out that's the problem. It's the stuff still inside, that
melted and is now all over the moving parts that's the problem. Tear
it apart and do a proper cleanup job.

Never touched the cartridge. Should I?

It's empty. Why bother? Get a refilled cartridge or do it thyself.
<http://cgi.ebay.com/220772645061>

After reassembly:
put back in cartridge and shut door, nothing worked for a while, made
horrible grinding noises even.

Encrusted toner broken loose and now grinding it's way through the
gears. Remove the covers, remove the fuser, and do a proper cleaning.
Download the service manual for instructions.
<http://www.eserviceinfo.com/equipment_mfg/HP_22.html>

Thought wet so waited when kept doing
that, reseated cartridge, closed door, and now, the printer works and
the print appears to be better, less streaking. But still there.

You managed to get the transfer roller wet. Therefore, the toner
sticks to the transfer roller, not the toner drum. It will dry out
eventually, and return to some semblance of normal.

Will keep trying since I've learned I don't damage it much.

Personally, I consider the 5L a loser even when it's working normally.
It's too slow, low resolution, and tends to jam often. I would put it
out of its misery and get something better. Favorite (used) printer
of the week is the HP2200dn (after fixing a design defect):
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/hp2200/hp2200.html>
About $80-$150 on eBay.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Robert Macy]

On Jun 29, 5:00 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 12:08:16 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit...@gmail.com
wrote:

It might be a
faulty corona discharge wire/connection...

Slight correction.  The HP LaserJet 5L does NOT use a corona wire.  It
has a "charge roller" inside the toner cart which does the same thing
as a corona wire (apply a charge onto the drum, and later switch to AC
to remove any residual charge).  

A picture is worth 1000 Google searches:
http://www.google.com/search?q=charge+roller&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
#http://802.11junk.com              je...@cruzio.com
#http://www.LearnByDestroying.com              AE6KS

Jeff et al,

Thank you for your excellent replies. Google had not provided access
to the usenet groups, for some unknown reason, until now.

Arfa Daily had kindly forwarded the frist responses that got me
started.

Again, the symptom: The streaks were only on the print side, well
sometimes backside too. Thought cartridge was going low and this was
a symptom so just put up with the streaking. Cartridge went so low
that white regions started to appear, so put in another cartridge and
the FIRST page was as good as ever [terrible, with low contrast, but
readable] Then it started streaking on the print side also. The
treaks appeared to be from a fairly small diameter roller. Dark bars,
not necessarily a repeated pattern, but at least every 3/8 to 1/2
inch.

So based upon excellent suggestion, I wiped everything I could get at
from the opening of cartridge access with water. Tremendous amount of
black toner came out. Took 4-5 paper towel sheets before started
being less. Never touched the cartridge. Should I? After reassembly:
put back in cartridge and shut door, nothing worked for a while, made
horrible grinding noises even. Thought wet so waited when kept doing
that, reseated cartridge, closed door, and now, the printer works and
the print appears to be better, less streaking. But still there.

Will keep trying since I've learned I don't damage it much.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 09:37:34 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Download the service manual for instructions.
http://www.eserviceinfo.com/equipment_mfg/HP_22.html

Oops. Try instead:
<http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/reference/manuals/public/hp>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Robert Macy]

On Jul 3, 9:37 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 08:13:24 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy

robert.a.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
Google had not provided access
to the usenet groups, for some unknown reason, until now.

I help maintain a few Google Groups mailing list.  Same problem there.
Basically, they stopped forwarding messages about 3 days ago.
Meanwhile, I'm enjoying the time off from not having to clean up the
mess left by users.  Some day, they'll learn the difference between
reply to list and reply to sender.

Again, the symptom: The streaks were only on the print side, well
sometimes backside too.

Back side could be crud on the rubber pressure roller in the fuser
roller assembly.  This is difficult to see and clean without tearing
apart the fuser assembly.  It can also be toner all over the transfer
roller, which is directly under the toner cartridge drum.  Don't touch
this with your fingers as any grease will cause toner to stick to the
foam roller.  What you need is a rebuild kit, which includes the
transfer roller.
http://cgi.ebay.com/220345718320

A strip on the printed side can be anything in the paper path that's
encrusted with toner.  If it's dead center, it's the rubber feed
roller.  It can also be the toner cartridge or encrusted toner on the
fuser heater surface.

Then it started streaking on the print side also.

Ok.  I decode this as starting on the back, and then becoming a
problem on the print side.  It usually works the other way around, but
if you have a mess of toner splattered all over the guts, it might get
stuck on the rubber pressure roller in the fuser, before it migrates
elsewhere.

The
treaks appeared to be from a fairly small diameter roller.  Dark bars,
not necessarily a repeated pattern, but at least every 3/8 to 1/2
inch.

If they don't match any of the rollers, then it's a blob of toner that
has been spread out by the pressure rollers.

So based upon excellent suggestion, I wiped everything I could get at
from the opening of cartridge access with water.

Not my suggestion.  Wiping just moves the toner around.  You also
can't see it very well with all that black plastic.  The right way is
to blow it out with compressed air.  The tiny cans of compressed air
don't do well with printers.  I use an air compressor (with a water
filter) and blow gun.

Hint:  Some toner is magnetic can be collected with a magnet. However,
the 5L toner isn't so don't bother.

However, if you've been running the printer with toner all over the
guts, you probably have some melted toner in odd places near where
things get hot.  Pull the fuser and clean it out with a plastic or
wood scraper.

Tremendous amount of black toner came out.

Yech.  There's your problem.  Well, not exactly.  It's not the toner
that came out that's the problem.  It's the stuff still inside, that
melted and is now all over the moving parts that's the problem.  Tear
it apart and do a proper cleanup job.

Never touched the cartridge. Should I?

It's empty.  Why bother?  Get a refilled cartridge or do it thyself.
http://cgi.ebay.com/220772645061

After reassembly:
put back in cartridge and shut door, nothing worked for a while, made
horrible grinding noises even.

Encrusted toner broken loose and now grinding it's way through the
gears.  Remove the covers, remove the fuser, and do a proper cleaning.
Download the service manual for instructions.
http://www.eserviceinfo.com/equipment_mfg/HP_22.html

Thought wet so waited when kept doing
that, reseated cartridge, closed door, and now, the printer works and
the print appears to be better, less streaking.  But still there.

You managed to get the transfer roller wet.  Therefore, the toner
sticks to the transfer roller, not the toner drum.  It will dry out
eventually, and return to some semblance of normal.

Will keep trying since I've learned I don't damage it much.

Personally, I consider the 5L a loser even when it's working normally.
It's too slow, low resolution, and tends to jam often.  I would put it
out of its misery and get something better.  Favorite (used) printer
of the week is the HP2200dn (after fixing a design defect):
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/hp2200/hp2200.html
About $80-$150 on eBay.

--
Jeff Liebermann     je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Jeff,

Thank you for the fixyourownprinter website! Registered and found
the manual

I agree the 5L is a piece of garbage. The worst contrast I've ever
seen. However, I inherited the free LaserJet 5L from a client. The
printer contained a cartridge, plus had an additional sealed
cartridge. Can't refuse such a bargain. Use it attached to the Win98
for the occasional hard copy (rare requirement) Thus, my budget for a
great printer is zero. Also the same client had 6 of these printers
in storage to be trashed. They upgraded to a whizbang HP printer on
their network, which even printed B size sheets.

I'll keep working on this to see if anything comes up that was the
obvious focus of failure causing the streaks. So far, it's like I
just wiped out the interior (which had little toner dust) and the
rollers (which were solid with toner) May have simply stumbled over
the repair solution.

Thanks again, for jumping in.

Regards,
Robert

 

[Robert Macy]

On Jul 3, 9:37 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 08:13:24 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy

robert.a.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
Google had not provided access
to the usenet groups, for some unknown reason, until now.

I help maintain a few Google Groups mailing list.  Same problem there.
Basically, they stopped forwarding messages about 3 days ago.
Meanwhile, I'm enjoying the time off from not having to clean up the
mess left by users.  Some day, they'll learn the difference between
reply to list and reply to sender.

Again, the symptom: The streaks were only on the print side, well
sometimes backside too.

Back side could be crud on the rubber pressure roller in the fuser
roller assembly.  This is difficult to see and clean without tearing
apart the fuser assembly.  It can also be toner all over the transfer
roller, which is directly under the toner cartridge drum.  Don't touch
this with your fingers as any grease will cause toner to stick to the
foam roller.  What you need is a rebuild kit, which includes the
transfer roller.
http://cgi.ebay.com/220345718320

A strip on the printed side can be anything in the paper path that's
encrusted with toner.  If it's dead center, it's the rubber feed
roller.  It can also be the toner cartridge or encrusted toner on the
fuser heater surface.

Then it started streaking on the print side also.

Ok.  I decode this as starting on the back, and then becoming a
problem on the print side.  It usually works the other way around, but
if you have a mess of toner splattered all over the guts, it might get
stuck on the rubber pressure roller in the fuser, before it migrates
elsewhere.

The
treaks appeared to be from a fairly small diameter roller.  Dark bars,
not necessarily a repeated pattern, but at least every 3/8 to 1/2
inch.

If they don't match any of the rollers, then it's a blob of toner that
has been spread out by the pressure rollers.

So based upon excellent suggestion, I wiped everything I could get at
from the opening of cartridge access with water.

Not my suggestion.  Wiping just moves the toner around.  You also
can't see it very well with all that black plastic.  The right way is
to blow it out with compressed air.  The tiny cans of compressed air
don't do well with printers.  I use an air compressor (with a water
filter) and blow gun.

Hint:  Some toner is magnetic can be collected with a magnet. However,
the 5L toner isn't so don't bother.

However, if you've been running the printer with toner all over the
guts, you probably have some melted toner in odd places near where
things get hot.  Pull the fuser and clean it out with a plastic or
wood scraper.

Tremendous amount of black toner came out.

Yech.  There's your problem.  Well, not exactly.  It's not the toner
that came out that's the problem.  It's the stuff still inside, that
melted and is now all over the moving parts that's the problem.  Tear
it apart and do a proper cleanup job.

Never touched the cartridge. Should I?

It's empty.  Why bother?  Get a refilled cartridge or do it thyself.
http://cgi.ebay.com/220772645061

After reassembly:
put back in cartridge and shut door, nothing worked for a while, made
horrible grinding noises even.

Encrusted toner broken loose and now grinding it's way through the
gears.  Remove the covers, remove the fuser, and do a proper cleaning.
Download the service manual for instructions.
http://www.eserviceinfo.com/equipment_mfg/HP_22.html

Thought wet so waited when kept doing
that, reseated cartridge, closed door, and now, the printer works and
the print appears to be better, less streaking.  But still there.

You managed to get the transfer roller wet.  Therefore, the toner
sticks to the transfer roller, not the toner drum.  It will dry out
eventually, and return to some semblance of normal.

Will keep trying since I've learned I don't damage it much.

Personally, I consider the 5L a loser even when it's working normally.
It's too slow, low resolution, and tends to jam often.  I would put it
out of its misery and get something better.  Favorite (used) printer
of the week is the HP2200dn (after fixing a design defect):
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/hp2200/hp2200.html
About $80-$150 on eBay.

--
Jeff Liebermann     je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Jeff,

Using the manual from the URL, just printed a Test Page, which only
has horizontal bars [streaks was a bad description] on print side,
with a pattern repeating every 3 inches.

Each edge of paper has about 3/16 inch uniform ...nevermind, looks
like a 'frame' around the print, part of the Test Page.

At least now I can use this printer, then fax to increase contrast.

Any idea fwhich roller is responsible for the bars?

Regards,
Robert

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2011 10:19:35 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
<robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you for the fixyourownprinter website! Registered and found
the manual

Moe knows his printers. Of course, we've disagreed on one or two
issues.

I agree the 5L is a piece of garbage. The worst contrast I've ever
seen. However, I inherited the free LaserJet 5L from a client. The
printer contained a cartridge, plus had an additional sealed
cartridge. Can't refuse such a bargain.

Sometimes, I wish I could do the same. I have the really bad habit of
dragging bargains home from the recylers or thrift shops. All are in
need of "just a little repair". All too often, the repair costs
dearly in time and money. When done, I have a working piece of junk.
Like drugs, just say no.

Use it attached to the Win98
for the occasional hard copy (rare requirement) Thus, my budget for a
great printer is zero.

Sigh. Another dinosaur.

Also the same client had 6 of these printers
in storage to be trashed. They upgraded to a whizbang HP printer on
their network, which even printed B size sheets.

My kind of client. A long lost customer grew from a tiny one person
retail establishment, to a major online and brick-n-mortar retailer.
During the growth, the owner was always worried about the latest
upgrade failing in some way that required reverting to the previous
computah system. So, he would either continue to operate the old
system, and store the earlier systems, in working condition. As late
as 2000, I was tinkering with a S100 (Compupro) system. He never had
to go back to the old system, but the security it offered made the
effort worthwhile.

Junk the Windoze 95/98/ME boxes. W2K is worth saving. Or, just run a
small footprint Linux:
<http://antix.mepis.org>

I'll keep working on this to see if anything comes up that was the
obvious focus of failure causing the streaks. So far, it's like I
just wiped out the interior (which had little toner dust) and the
rollers (which were solid with toner) May have simply stumbled over
the repair solution.

If you can wipe toner from the printed page, then the fuser is not
doing its job. It melts the plastic dust into the paper. If that's
not happening, the fuser is a problem.

Judging from the list of symptoms, the printer has multiple problems.
So far:
1. Toner mess inside.
2. Fuser not getting hot.
3. Dead toner cartridge.
4. Encrusted toner on rollers.
5. Melted toner on the fuser pressure roller.
6. Toner overloaded pressure roller.
7. Possible paper jam (all LJ 5L/6L paper jam).

Thanks again, for jumping in.

I just hate to see a grown man suffer. Defenestrate it (and be sure
to make a video as it hits the ground).
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestration>

Using the manual from the URL, just printed a Test Page, which only
has horizontal bars [streaks was a bad description] on print side,
with a pattern repeating every 3 inches.

Measure the spacing exactly. 3 inches would be a roller with about a
1 inch diameter (divide the spacing by Pi). I don't have a 5L handy
to measure the various rollers, but find a roller with the proper
diameter. It's not the feed roller as that appears dead center along
the length of the page. At 1" my guess(tm) would be the hot roller in
the fuser.

Each edge of paper has about 3/16 inch uniform ...nevermind, looks
like a 'frame' around the print, part of the Test Page.

Yep. There's a white area around the lines where the printer doesn't
print.

At least now I can use this printer, then fax to increase contrast.

Ummm... clean it out first.

Any idea fwhich roller is responsible for the bars?

Whichever one is about 1" in diameter. Hard to tell from here and I
don't have a 5L handy.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 10:05:49 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
<robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

I like the way this guy thinks. Don't EVER move from point A to point
B without the ability to move back to point A.

Only the paranoid survive.

In this case, it was well handled and worthwhile. However, there are
times where it doesn't work. Also in the 1970's I was working for a
marine radio manufactory that had a similar mentality. Whenever
something went wrong, instead of fixing the problem, someone would
always suggest going back to the old way of doing things. For
example, when the fancy new Swiss made wave soldering machine decided
to make a mess of the PCB's, instead of fixing the problem, someone
suggested resurrecting the ancient solder pot out of storage. It took
considerable effort to convince them that there may have been a reason
why it was buried in storage. As soon as the new wave solder machine
was back in action, I was more than happy to assist in emptying the
old solder pot, and delivering it to the local scrap dealer. This was
not done to recover the cost of the solder pot, but to prevent
mis-management from ever making a similar suggestion. Several other
upgrades were followed by intentionally disposing of the old junk to
prevent similar incidents.

I have another customer, with a particularly ancient computer system,
that prints out every invoice, transaction, inventory, etc on a daily
basis. The toll on paper and printers is severe. So much for the
paperless office. However, when the computer crashed, and they were
down for several days while I tried to put Humpty Dumpty back together
out of sparse backup tapes, they were able to continue operating from
the paper copies. According to the owner and staff, it made the paper
pile worthwhile.

Last year, one of my former customers went with a cloud computing
service, dumping me in the process. No loss, but I made sure that the
old system was still functional, even if it wasn't being used (or
paying me). Sure enough, there have been several "regrettable
incidents" that shut down the whole company, and required temporarily
resurrecting the old system. A more spectacular example was another
company, that did something similar, only to get audited by the Feds.
They needed reports from the old system, which they stupidly gave me
to recycle, but instead which I stored for a few months. Premonition
I guess.

These days, I don't work on any machine that I don't first make an
image backup of the hard disk. When I'm done, I make an other. Cheap
insurance.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Robert Macy]

On Jul 4, 4:25 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
.....snip.....

My kind of client.  A long lost customer grew from a tiny one person
retail establishment, to a major online and brick-n-mortar retailer.
During the growth, the owner was always worried about the latest
upgrade failing in some way that required reverting to the previous
computah system.  So, he would either continue to operate the old
system, and store the earlier systems, in working condition.  As late
as 2000, I was tinkering with a S100 (Compupro) system.  He never had
to go back to the old system, but the security it offered made the
effort worthwhile.
....snip....
--
Jeff Liebermann     je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

I like the way this guy thinks. Don't EVER move from point A to point
B without the ability to move back to point A.

Back in the 70's [I think] RCA (or was it GE?) had a recipe for an RF
transistor that was 'knock your socks off' fast, low noise, low power
{for RF] and cheap to make. It was head and shoulders above any
competitor. As you can imagine the demand was incredible. To gear up
Production, the Management built a huge facility with the required
increased through-put capability across the street from the smaller,
original facility. Not sure why, or how, but the original line was
shut down and dismantled before the new line was operational, probably
to save a few coins on the furnaces and clean room equipment to be
used in the new facility. Starting up the new facility, it NEVER
produced product that recreated the specs of the original transistor,
could never make transistors as fast, anywhere near the low noise, and
there was essentially no yield out of any run. In other words, they
had lost the recipe. It is my understanding that no one ever found
out why. Since they had dismantled the original facility, there was
no way to even go back to making smaller quantities to keep hold of
the market. Thus, I always hear ringing in my head, "Don't move from
point A to point B, destroying point A. You may need to return to
point A."

Regards,
Robert

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 6 Jul 2011 07:47:50 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
<robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

I have an OS on an ailing HD.

Make and model? Is the HD failing with bad sectors, or is the data or
filesystem trashed?

Some key pieces of the initial
installations are missing -- sloppy storage and record keeping. For
archive functionality would like to be able to run the PC from time to
time. The idea is that while HD is working copy it quick.

Is there any free software that will take an image of a relatively
small HD (20GB, I think), place it in a region of a larger HD (say,
40GB), then later move the saved 'image' back onto the proper sections
of a similarly sized HD?

I use Acronis True Image Home 2011 for imaging.
<http://www.acronis.com/backup-recovery/>
The catch is that it needs a CD or USB flash drive to boot. This
sounds like an old machine that might not have these. For those, I
remove the drive, attach a USB to IDE adapter cable, and do the backup
on a different machine. It is also important to check the setting
that has it ignore bad sectors or this is likely to take a long time.

There are also free image backup programs, but I don't use them.
<http://www.clonezilla.org>
<http://www.partimage.org>

Another program I use to recover data from a trashed or failing drive
is:
<http://www.restorer2000.com>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Robert Macy]

On Jul 5, 11:26 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
....snip...

These days, I don't work on any machine that I don't first make an
image backup of the hard disk.  When I'm done, I make an other.  Cheap
insurance.

--
Jeff Liebermann     je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Jeff,

I have an OS on an ailing HD. Some key pieces of the initial
installations are missing -- sloppy storage and record keeping. For
archive functionality would like to be able to run the PC from time to
time. The idea is that while HD is working copy it quick.

Is there any free software that will take an image of a relatively
small HD (20GB, I think), place it in a region of a larger HD (say,
40GB), then later move the saved 'image' back onto the proper sections
of a similarly sized HD?

Regards,
Robert

 

[Meat Plow]

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 10:05:49 -0700, Robert Macy wrote:

On Jul 4, 4:25 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
....snip.....
My kind of client.  A long lost customer grew from a tiny one person
retail establishment, to a major online and brick-n-mortar retailer.
During the growth, the owner was always worried about the latest
upgrade failing in some way that required reverting to the previous
computah system.  So, he would either continue to operate the old
system, and store the earlier systems, in working condition.  As late
as 2000, I was tinkering with a S100 (Compupro) system.  He never had
to go back to the old system, but the security it offered made the
effort worthwhile.
...snip....
--
Jeff Liebermann     je...@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D  
 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA
95060http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS  
 831-336-2558

I like the way this guy thinks. Don't EVER move from point A to point B
without the ability to move back to point A.

Yep Jeff is one smart cookie. Redundancy is your friend. I learned that
working on live computer systems for commercial clients that ran 3 shifts
of CNC. Take them down for half an hour is a big deal. Screwing something
up big time and not having a redundancy plan to return before the upgrade
will lose you the client. Happened to me once on an old Novell 3.10 server
running a golf course point of sale system. Upgraded the OS to 3.12 and it
died in the process. Later figured out after a couple hours that the dos
partition was full and that's where the boot files are. Deleted some
orphaned files, re-ran the upgrade and all was fine. Didn't lose the
client but they spent a lot of time entering sales they wrote down on
paper back into the system. I couldn't charge my time ethically so I lost
300 bucks. That taught me a good lesson.



--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 02:05:58 +0000 (UTC), Meat Plow
<mhywattt@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 17:28:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Wed, 6 Jul 2011 22:23:35 +0000 (UTC), Meat Plow <mhywattt@yahoo.com
wrote:

Redundancy is your friend.

Well, not exactly. Cover thy ass, backups, and disk images are best.
RAID, mirroring, and tape backup are the road to hell. Been there, done
them all, and learned some really expensive lessons.

Redundancy means cover thy ass. Any way you can.

Well, ok. I'll use your definition. If I have two identical drives,
each 90% reliable, how reliable are two of such drives?
0.9 * 0.9 = 0.81 = 81% reliable.
If I have a RAID array of 4 drives, with the same reliability, it
would be:
0.9 * 0.9 * 0.9 * 0.9 = 66%
The data might still be safe or recoverable, but limping along with
one drive is not acceptable. Even worse is that identical drives tend
to fail identically. The point where I gave up on the RAID idea was
when I had 2 out of 4 drives fail within 2 weeks, and there were
indications that the other 3 drives (RAID 1+0 with parity 5 drive
array) would soon follow. I was lucky was able to replace all the
drives before they all failed.

I had previously purchased several identical drives as spares when the
RAID array was first installed. The plan was to use them as
replacements in order to keep the rotational sync problem to a
minimum. The drives just sat on my shelf. When I crammed two of them
into the RAID array as replacements, they started showing signs of
impending failure. Just what I didn't need was a fundamentally
unreliable array of drives.

Had my fair share of the
Dell PERC2 RAID controller battery failures and complete loss of RAID
containers. Dead Fujitsu drives on the second day of service for a
Poweredge server. I could go one and one...

Argh. The AMI or LSI Logic controllers use a proprietary parity
algorithm that is just short of being encrypted. Of course, LSI Logic
won't divulge the details and Dell claims it's not a problem. Various
companies have reverse engineered the system thus allowing uses to
make a backup. You can always tell that there's a problem, if there
are companies specializing in recovering RAID data:
<http://www.raidrecoverylabs.com/dell_data_recovery/>
<http://www.raidrecoveryguide.com>

Most I remember about Xenix it was an AT&T product I think.

Nope. Originally a Microsloth product, which was almost immediately
taken over by SCO (Santa Cruz Operations). At one point, it was also
sold by IBM. I still have one customer using Xenix 2.3.4 on a 386.
Totally reliable for late 1980's character based applications.

You're probably thinking of AT&T Unix SysV and others.

Mine is all
NT4 server, NT4 Hydra, NT4 Terminal Server with Exchange, Citrix
Metaframe,
Windows Server 2k, 2003, Novell 3xx, 4.xx. BSD and linux for routers
(before the hardware appliances) Cobalt Cube mail servers, managed
switches, fiber the whole shebang.

All for one company? Seems like a rather strange mix of server
operating systems. Ever consider reducing the number of OS's in order
to simplify maintenance?

Most of my nets were hybrid Novell/Windows. I sent a message to the
Novell clients to inform upon an impending shutdown so people could
save their work. Hell I charged by the hour so it didn't matter to me how
long I waited for everyone to back out.

I mostly charge by the hour, but I also had some service contracts. My
problem was that I would usually book several service calls per day.
An extra hour at the morning customer, would cut into the time I had
allocated for the later customers. I didn't care if it took longer,
but only if I could leave at my predicted time. Also, if I left it to
the customer to declare that the computer was can't be shut down, it
would be more like several hours delay.

My mistake. I had been thrust
into Novell because the Novell guy quit after only two weeks training me.

I got into Novell when all the local consultants decided the company
was a loser after Novell unilaterally tweaked the relationship in
their favor. I decided to give it a try, which worked until Novell
started insisting on expensive certifications and bizarre financial
requirements. I bailed, but managed to keep a few Novell customers.
Mid 1990's I think, maybe.

Them people at the
steel plant expected me to be their god.

Naw, I don't look good in a toga.

Everyone had their own special need. I'm trying
to link Macola ODBC, Pervasive SQL workstation clients with MS ODBC with
third party modules, FaxPress functions for faxing and emailing out of
Exchange with one keystroke. Stuff like that. Nightmare.

That is a nightmare. I've seen it happen and do everything I can to
prevent application proliferation. Every new hire has their own
favorite application that just has to be installed immediately.
Fortunately, I was dealing mostly with Unix/Xenix boxes, where choices
of the major applications were fairly limited. At the time, I would
have sold my immoral soul for a VM type system, where I could
sequester individual users and their strange applications in their
very own private pig pen, and let them wallow in their own bugs.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Meat Plow]

On Thu, 07 Jul 2011 08:11:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 02:05:58 +0000 (UTC), Meat Plow <mhywattt@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 17:28:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Wed, 6 Jul 2011 22:23:35 +0000 (UTC), Meat Plow
mhywattt@yahoo.com> wrote:

Redundancy is your friend.

Well, not exactly. Cover thy ass, backups, and disk images are best.
RAID, mirroring, and tape backup are the road to hell. Been there,
done them all, and learned some really expensive lessons.

Redundancy means cover thy ass. Any way you can.

Well, ok. I'll use your definition. If I have two identical drives,
each 90% reliable, how reliable are two of such drives?
0.9 * 0.9 = 0.81 = 81% reliable.
If I have a RAID array of 4 drives, with the same reliability, it would
be:
0.9 * 0.9 * 0.9 * 0.9 = 66%
The data might still be safe or recoverable, but limping along with one
drive is not acceptable. Even worse is that identical drives tend to
fail identically. The point where I gave up on the RAID idea was when I
had 2 out of 4 drives fail within 2 weeks, and there were indications
that the other 3 drives (RAID 1+0 with parity 5 drive array) would soon
follow. I was lucky was able to replace all the drives before they all
failed.

I had previously purchased several identical drives as spares when the
RAID array was first installed. The plan was to use them as
replacements in order to keep the rotational sync problem to a minimum.
The drives just sat on my shelf. When I crammed two of them into the
RAID array as replacements, they started showing signs of impending
failure. Just what I didn't need was a fundamentally unreliable array
of drives.

Had my fair share of the
Dell PERC2 RAID controller battery failures and complete loss of RAID
containers. Dead Fujitsu drives on the second day of service for a
Poweredge server. I could go one and one...

Argh. The AMI or LSI Logic controllers use a proprietary parity
algorithm that is just short of being encrypted. Of course, LSI Logic
won't divulge the details and Dell claims it's not a problem. Various
companies have reverse engineered the system thus allowing uses to make
a backup. You can always tell that there's a problem, if there are
companies specializing in recovering RAID data:
http://www.raidrecoverylabs.com/dell_data_recovery/
http://www.raidrecoveryguide.com

The one most remembered was a Poweredge controller with RAID 5.
The owner shut it down over the winter against advice and without my
knowledge. It's a golf course and vacated for 5 month a year.
I was unaware of the battery problem in the controller but that
didn't matter. Once the configuration is gone in the controller
there is no way to restore the lost container. Luckily they did
back their data up the week before shutting the server down. I created a
new container, installed W2K Server and the point of sale software
and SQL server. Some ODBC stuff, their sales and price data restored
and they were ready to reenter any changes made after the backup.
It was a fairly elaborate system for me. Touch screen terminals
and receipt printers for 4 point of sales and two outdoor starter
gazebos. A connection to a Windows XP PC running two phone cards
for dial in course reservation bookings. So there was quite a bit going
on. I re-did the entire system previously running Novell 3.12, TCNS
and DOS workstations. Also added a 2 channel 64k ISDN to the network. The
fastest they could get at the location.

Most I remember about Xenix it was an AT&T product I think.

Nope. Originally a Microsloth product, which was almost immediately
taken over by SCO (Santa Cruz Operations). At one point, it was also
sold by IBM. I still have one customer using Xenix 2.3.4 on a 386.
Totally reliable for late 1980's character based applications.

You're probably thinking of AT&T Unix SysV and others.

I knew I read it somewhere in the past:
Xenix is a version of the Unix operating system, licensed by Microsoft
from AT&T in the late 1970s. The Santa Cruz Operation (SCO) later
acquired exclusive ...

AT&T was the original developer.

Mine is all
NT4 server, NT4 Hydra, NT4 Terminal Server with Exchange, Citrix
Metaframe,
Windows Server 2k, 2003, Novell 3xx, 4.xx. BSD and linux for routers
(before the hardware appliances) Cobalt Cube mail servers, managed
switches, fiber the whole shebang.

All for one company? Seems like a rather strange mix of server
operating systems. Ever consider reducing the number of OS's in order
to simplify maintenance?

No no no no no. Just my experience, and a considerable amount of
experimentation.

I had to work around the needs of the network, the current business
software, and if that software could be ported over to Windows.
I wanted to do away with all the Novell stuff but a lot of people were
running their business suites that were not fully ported for Windows yet.
I remember one company that tried to switch their Macola suite over to
Windows. A rep from the company came with her own server to do the
conversion. It failed. Macola makes you sign a release stating they
can't be sued for problems with their product. So we gave up on the
switch. I got fed up with the CEO and CFO of the company wanting me
to try to figure out all these damn ODBC connections so they could fax
stuff directly from the CAD department and a long list of other near
impossible database crap of similar nature. Some companies charged a
couple hundred bucks for each ODBC driver. And they wouldn't send you
a sample to see if it would work without paying the full price.
I got tired of all the torture, free support, gray hairs and turned
that client over to a friend who had some resources I didn't in writing
database stuff.

Most of my nets were hybrid Novell/Windows. I sent a message to the
Novell clients to inform upon an impending shutdown so people could save
their work. Hell I charged by the hour so it didn't matter to me how
long I waited for everyone to back out.

I mostly charge by the hour, but I also had some service contracts. My
problem was that I would usually book several service calls per day. An
extra hour at the morning customer, would cut into the time I had
allocated for the later customers. I didn't care if it took longer, but
only if I could leave at my predicted time. Also, if I left it to the
customer to declare that the computer was can't be shut down, it would
be more like several hours delay.

Whatever works. We didn't have contracts. Hell most of these clients
didn't even have a budget for IT. So I usually designated the most
computer savvy person with the highest worker ranking to do scheduled
stuff an proper server reboots when needed.

My mistake. I had been thrust
into Novell because the Novell guy quit after only two weeks training
me.

I got into Novell when all the local consultants decided the company was
a loser after Novell unilaterally tweaked the relationship in their
favor. I decided to give it a try, which worked until Novell started
insisting on expensive certifications and bizarre financial
requirements. I bailed, but managed to keep a few Novell customers. Mid
1990's I think, maybe.

I never got past 4.xx. A couple non-profit organizations were running it
on Compaq Prosignia and Proliant. Had one commercial running two Proliant
cluster servers. Once I saw where version 5 was going I bailed.

Them people at the
steel plant expected me to be their god.

Naw, I don't look good in a toga.

The receptionist at one printing firm used to bow to me when I walked
through the front door. Windows 2K, NT4 servers in the back for the
Appletalk storage in CAD to printing. They made custom banners up to 12
feet wide IIRC.

Everyone had their own special need. I'm trying to link Macola ODBC,
Pervasive SQL workstation clients with MS ODBC with third party modules,
FaxPress functions for faxing and emailing out of Exchange with one
keystroke. Stuff like that. Nightmare.

That is a nightmare. I've seen it happen and do everything I can to
prevent application proliferation. Every new hire has their own
favorite application that just has to be installed immediately.
Fortunately, I was dealing mostly with Unix/Xenix boxes, where choices
of the major applications were fairly limited. At the time, I would
have sold my immoral soul for a VM type system, where I could sequester
individual users and their strange applications in their very own
private pig pen, and let them wallow in their own bugs.

I really got to hate these CFO/CEO that had some computer savvy and
wanted stuff to integrate this and that way. I was happy to dream at night
about the way it was with one Novell server and diskless workstations
booting off the server images. Once windows 98, W2K and XP it was utter
chaos.



--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse